Sharpening

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Old timer here in N F W taught me to use the top edge of auto side window glass for a quick touch up.
He also talked of using the unfinished bottom of a ceramic coffee cup.
The bottom of the cup is an old restaurant trick for when somebody made off with your steel. Sharpening steels have a mysterious way of disappearing. Tip: pull the steam table away from the wall. There will be at least one back there. ;-)
 
25 posts and not a single comment on actual sharpening technique, any stone will work but if you don't know how to sharpen the metal you'll just spend all day rubbing the steel without ever getting a razor edge.
 
^ LOL. +1 more, thx to you.

Lest there be one more:

Hold knife at desired angle. Use appropriate grit, depending on width of bevel and/or how much reshaping needed. Once you get to the apex, start alternating sides more and more frequently. And at this point you can either switch to finer stone to smooth this edge and reduce bur, or you can just strop the heck out of it.

For a blade that doesn't need to be exactly straight/even, like a knife, you don't even need to have an edge bevel. You can thin the steel all the way to the apex, with just a slight convexity. You can refresh this edge at any angle you want with just a few strokes, until it gets fattened up from repeated sharpening.

Tip for a knife that has a distinct but small bevel: Sometimes it is hard to find the right angle. I find if you start with a smooth/fine stone, you can "find" the angle by feeling for the edge to catch. Too shallow, and the back edge of bevel catches, and this is a much coarser feel. Increase angle and you will eventually feel the edge catching. Between the two, you get almost no resistance/feel. This is when you know you're on the bevel. Take a good look at this angle, go back to coarser stone if necessary, and sharpen it at this angle. Check the bevel for new scratches, and adjust as necessary. Sometimes the angle is WAY different than best guess I can make by eye. The feel doesn't lie.
 
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^ LOL. +1 more, thx to you.

Lest there be one more:

Hold knife at desired angle. Use appropriate grit, depending on width of bevel and/or how much reshaping needed. Once you get to the apex, start alternating sides more and more frequently. And at this point you can either switch to finer stone to smooth this edge and reduce bur, or you can just strop the heck out of it.

For a blade that doesn't need to be exactly straight/even, like a knife, you don't even need to have an edge bevel. You can thin the steel all the way to the apex, with just a slight convexity. You can refresh this edge at any angle you want with just a few strokes, until it gets fattened up from repeated sharpening.

Tip for a knife that has a distinct but small bevel: Sometimes it is hard to find the right angle. I find if you start with a smooth/fine stone, you can "find" the angle by feeling for the edge to catch. Too shallow, and the back edge of bevel catches, and this is a much coarser feel. Increase angle and you will eventually feel the edge catching. Between the two, you get almost no resistance/feel. This is when you know you're on the bevel. Take a good look at this angle, go back to coarser stone if necessary, and sharpen it at this angle. Check the bevel for new scratches, and adjust as necessary. Sometimes the angle is WAY different than best guess I can make by eye. The feel doesn't lie.

Very informative, thanks.
 
This all reminds me that one of my winter projects is to locate a few of the dozens of 1800s whetstone quarries in southern Indiana and collect some rock. Before the advent of synthetic stones, indiana was second only to Arkansas in whetstone production, a lot of which was shipped to Europe. I have several old geology reports that describe the quarries and their locations. Should be interesting. One of my geologist friends is in on the project too. The more the merrier!
 
^that sounds like fun.

If you find enough rock, you can save yourself a lot of time and trouble by making tools like the prehistoric natives did. Drop rocks until they fracture just right. If you start with enough, you will end up with one good rock, lol. This would save a lot of the grunt work. :) If you're unlucky, the only good rock you will find is in 500 lb pieces. If you have a generator and a hammer drill, you might want to bring them along. :)

a lot of which was shipped to Europe.
And apparently, they were gaga over Washita and soft Arkansas. They already had English Charnley stone and Belgium razor hones. The speed of Washita was in demand, at that time.

BTW, I am super impressed with diamond for cutting Ark rock. I been using the original blade on my teeny tile saw since I bought it many years, ago. Mostly been used to cut glass and FR-4. And I used the heck out of it for this project with no really noticeable wear. I occasionally cut some SiC stone to deglaze it, but it really just kept trucking and didn't shrink that I can tell. I think the original blade might outlast the saw. I would not be overly concerned about wearing out a diamond plate (if I had one) to lap ark stone.

Other side note: I felt bad to waste so much rock using the wrong equipment. I got a few decent pocket stones out of the larger fragments, but I ground a lot of rock into dust. I scooped up some of the mud and put it in a bottle to dry. I wonder if this ark stone dust will be same as "Tripoli."
 
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The Indiana whet is very fine sandstone and siltstone (upper Mississippian and lower Pennsylvanian rocks). Some quarries also produced coarser sandstone that was used in millstones - grain mills were a big deal. I think the Indiana whet is generally inferior to the ark products because it is not as well cemented and wears faster. But hey, I'm 61 so what do I care? :). The gen/hammer drill idea is good! I also have a cheap tile saw with diamond blades that I'll use to finish the stones. Just plan to make a few for myself and a few friends, and my sons.

Keeping the rock dust from sawing is also a great idea. Ought to be good for strop polishing compound or something. I can probably find a No. 200 sieve around here to take out the coarse pieces and clean it up.

It's time to get those old quarry maps out and see where I can get into some!
 
I use the magnifying glass in my Swiss Army knife to examine the edge, to ensure that I am keeping the bevel in the same spot. I also use DMT diamond stones, they are very aggressive. I wore out Norton stones and carborundum stones, but with the modern stainless steels, I get a much better edge with diamond stones because the things remove metal quickly and I don't roll the edge as much.
 
DMT diamond stones and my Work sharp sharpener. I have the super fine DMT and it really puts a fine edge on the my knives. The Work sharp makes it almost too easy. I can put a wicked edge on all our knives and it only takes an hour or so, kitchen knives, pocket knives, and anything with an edge. But I won't let my son use it. I told him he needs to learn how to use a stone first, then he can use my Work sharp. I can't tell you how many knives I dulled learning to sharpen before I finally learned to use an Arkansas stone.

On the subject of sharpening technique. For me, once I learned the proper angle, it was then a matter of developing the requisite muscle memory. Over and over and over again. I also use sound, the proper angle sounds "different" to me, maybe I am the only one, but I can "hear" the difference between the proper angle and the wrong angle.

JohnnyOrugun
 
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I can't tell you how many knives I dulled learning to sharpen before I finally learned to use an Arkansas stone.
For me, I wasn't dulling them. I just wasn't making them any sharper, lol. Funny the conclusions we might make when we can't actually SEE what is happening. Final edge angle can be terribly blunt and still produce a sharp knife! Too shallow, and well.. nothing much happens for quite a while.

Even worse, I remember buying a Lansky some 25 years ago. And I couldn't even make that work. It was a Buck knife I was trying to sharpen, and years ago some of them were quite hard, or so I have heard.
 
I learned how to sharpen pocket knives as a kid, using Dad's stone. I have that stone to this day...it was given to Dad by an uncle, who used to work at TRW Ross Gear. It was one of the stones used for polishing steel.

It's an inch and change square on end, and around six inches or so in length.

I watched Dad sharpen his pocket knife and practiced from that. Once I started, I don't think he had to actually sharpen his pocket knife for the next 15 years! I kept his, mine, and anybody else's close to me razer sharp...if any blade didn't shave the hair on the back of my arm, it wasn't done being sharpened!

I went years with a bare patch on my arms...

The key is a consistent angle and a steady stroke across the stone, following the curve of the blade during the stroke.

I do NOT like sharpening the 340 stainless blades on pocket knives. Gimme carbon steel anyday! Not only does the stainless not hold an edge like carbon steel, it's a real pain to put a keen edge on with my stones. I found out why years ago...stroking the edge across the stones results in a tiny "curl" to the cutting edge. Best I can do is strop it when I'm done to remove it.
 
Oh...as for tips and how...it's hard to describe.

But you really have to pay very close attention to the angle of the blade and how it feels in your hand/fingers. When you get the angle right (and it has to be right for both sides), be meticulous about maintaining it through each and every stroke of the blade across the stone.

Eventually the proper hold on the blade reaches the point where any other position just doesn't feel right. Then you'll be able to more easily and quickly stroke a clean and keen edge on a blade.

And yes...different blades feel differently in your hand. But the same principle applies.
 
Personally, I create a single angle from the spine to the cutting edge, then I create a bevel at whatever angle I need for the type of work I do with that particular knife, 18 degree for kitchen knives and 20 - 25 degrees for my hunting/work knives. Once the edge is centered on the blade I work one side of the final bevel until I get a curl along the entire cutting edge (this is with the finish grit stone so the curl isn't very pronounced). Once I have the curl I simply switch the blade over and run the curl along the finish stone a couple of strokes, this removes the curl and gives a nice sharp edge. On the knives that I want to use in the kitchen I finish with a leather strop.
 
Not only does the stainless not hold an edge like carbon steel
In my experience it does not take the same edge either, which is maybe why it doesn't hold it as long. When I made knives I used my 2" x 72" grinder to sharpen, and could always get carbon steel sharper than stainless. Those babies were super sharp! If I could still use that grinder I would but I sold it and now use a Wicked Edge.
 
The Wicked Edge sharpeners are some pricey products, indeed. But well worth it if one has invested in a lot of cutlery. My wife has thousands of dollars worth of kitchen knives, way more knives that I keep around as my folders and field knives.

I'm finding as I get older, I'm just using more and more my plain ol' carbon steel knives.
 
Personally, I create a single angle from the spine to the cutting edge, then I create a bevel at whatever angle I need for the type of work I do with that particular knife,
This is more or less how I sharpen many of my knives. But the "single angle" is usually more of a thin convex. You can't often get a true full flat grind without over-thinning the meat behind the edge, unless ur talking bout a delicate straight razor or a knife with a really thick spine. Although with chromium-free steel, you can get really, really thin, as long as you don't mind some folding of the edge, now and then.

It's fun sharpening a knife with a distinct bevel, on occasion. It is good to keep up the skill. But most of my hard-working knives, and especially knives with a recurve, I like to reduce edge bevel to nothing or close to it. It makes them that much easier to maintain. I almost can't wait to ruin the edge, haha.

The other problem with the initial thinning of a high carbide knife is.... the scratches. Oh, boy. Removing the scratches from a high carbide knife steel can waste the entire afternoon! I think that we old-school carbon steel guys are more likely to favor the thin edge, small bevel/microbevel strategy. Not to mention, a lot of the premium knives people put in their pockets come with brushed finish or some surface coating, and erasing the bevel would scar up the looks.


I do NOT like sharpening the 340 stainless blades on pocket knives. Gimme carbon steel anyday! Not only does the stainless not hold an edge like carbon steel, it's a real pain to put a keen edge on with my stones. I found out why years ago...stroking the edge across the stones results in a tiny "curl" to the cutting edge. Best I can do is strop it when I'm done to remove it.
I think if you were to look close enough, all steels form a bur off a rigid stone. Some worse than others. Sure 'nuff, you can reduce the bur to almost nothing off a nice smooth stone and a light touch, particularly if you raise the angle just slightly on the last stroke.* But under a microscope, there is going to be some small bur, there. I often use an edge straight off the stone, particularly in the kitchen. But if I am near a strop, I will more than likely finish on it just to know the bur is gone.

*By just slightly, I mean the opposite, actually. Raising a GOOD amount but using feather light pressure on a fine hone for just a stroke or 3. This will remove the bur (but raise a very tiny new one, theoretically), in case you don't have a strop handy. Some would call this putting a microbevel on the knife. I just call it sharpening without a strop. As much as you want to think the edge on your knife is perfect, it is not. Well-formed edge = sharp and durable edge. I learnt to stop obsessing over thin apex angle. If you don't finish it on strop or by this "microbevel" method, it will have an extra degree of toothy, tomato slicing sharpness, but it won't last. Even a single cut in a piece of paper could turn the bur.
 
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I learned to sharpen many years ago. I carry around two small stones, a 600, and a 1200. People are always asking me to sharpen thier knives.
It is not a hard skill to learn, yet most people think it is hard.
One trick I use is to polish the edge on card board smeared with a little mothers mag polish.
Ya' all got any tricks to share?
I use that cardboard trick too, but with Metal Glo or Flitz paste.
 
I sharpened the knife of a guy at UHaul the other day on the top of my driver's side window glass. Being fritted silicon dioxide it makes a handy sharpening "stone". He was quite amazed that he was driving around with a sharpener all the time.
 
Achievement unlocked. Face shaved with a pocket knife.

I made a small strop the other day. Instead of reaching for the same green stick I have been using for many years, I happened to be notice an unopened green buffing bar I bought a year or three ago. I noticed it has an Asian character imprinted on top of the bar which I think is Japanese. I wonder why I have never tried it, before. So I unwrapped it and gave it a go. I buffed it into the smooth side strop with another piece of leather to melt it into the surface, and I kept it up until all the green/dark stuff was basically gone and the leather looked essentially bare (other than some compound in the "cracks" in the surface pattern here and there).

Well, heck. I feel like there's a significant improvement on my knives just feeling the edge after a few strops... but how good? So today I'm in front of the mirror, and I'm in bad need of a shave. And one of these knives is in my pocket.

I've shaved part of my beard with a knife before, but I had to finish with a razor. It took too many passes and caused some burn. Well, today, it went smooth... Aside from the awkward angles for someone who doesn't know how to use a straight razor, the shave was excellent!

Other news, ground up Arkansas rock doesn't appear to work well as a stropping compound. It doesn't seem to hardly do anything to knife steel over leather.

*I found out what it is:
https://www.woodstockint.com/products/D2902
"Extra Fine." I purchased it over 2 years ago!

I also notice they sell D2912, which is simply "Fine." I am a little more satisfied that the improvement is not just my imagination.

I haven't gotten around to trying diamond or cubic nitride sprays, but I am starting to wonder how much sharper sharp gets. :)
 
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If anyone else uses some generic hardware store "green buffing bar," and they are not getting true razor sharpness, beware. Chromium oxide powder/grit is sold in different size/grade. And your "chromium oxide" green buffing compound might not even be primarily chromium oxide.
http://straightrazorplace.com/honing/28088-consumer-alert-chromium-oxide-bars-not.html

MSDS for Brownells "green rouge" states 1-7% chromium oxide and up to 75% aluminum oxide! It doesn't list particle size, though.

TLDR: Green bars are not all the same. Even if 100% chromium oxide, particle size is not a given constant.
 
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