Sharps Help

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Looked on Dixie gun works for sharps paper cartridge models. And found 3, 2 made by pedrosoli and one my IAB. Price is significant among companies. Is IAB really that bad a sharps as I hear. Anyone having an IAB care to say if it is a good rifle for hunting shooting overall. Would hate to pay extra 300 for simular gun as the pedrosoli is about a grand versus IAB $700.00.
 
Sharps Rifles

It is just an opinion, but a grand'l buy ya a pedersoli sharps in 45-70 cal, not that there is anything wrong with those paper ctg. guns...I handled a military musket sharps but couldnt tell ya who made it. The man wanted $750 for it, though it was good quality. I'm not trying to change your mind, just to say I feel the sharps metallic ctg guns are better in that they dont leak any gas upon firing. Also, and I could be wrong, but you may be limited to 54 cal with those paper ctg guns:evil:
 
There are a few reason for wanting a paper cartridge model. First I can make my own loads with the powder I want and how mnay grains I want, I like that:D Second I can hunt during Black Powder season givin what state I might be in. It has huge historical value to me. It is readilly avalible over the internet were as the cartridge model in calvary model configuration is rare and has years wait on it. The 47/70 round is very expensive to buy and is not as big as a 54 cal paper model and the 45/70 round has 70 grain were as I can put up to 80. That's why I figure I should get paper model.:evil: Though I would like to have both:rolleyes:
 
Sir...,

You might want to check out your state regulations, as in every state that I have researched (I admit I haven't checked them all) the season is commonly referred to as "black powder season" but is in fact the muzzleloader season. Sometimes it's called "primitive season". No matter what, it's NOT the black powder that makes the gun an option, it's the method of loading the gun that counts.. IF your state requires the rifle to be a muzzleloader, then a BP Sharps isn't legal, except in modern gun season, and ONLY if you are allowed to use rifles in modern gun season (much of the People's Republic of Maryland is shotgun/muzzleloader only, so you couldn't hunt with it at all in most of the counties in Maryland).

Just thought I'd point that out. Silly reg really, for you couldn't use a breechloading Sharps in my county at all, but .58 caplock Springfield would be perfectly legal. ???

LD
 
I don't think you can use this any where during BP season. They are a breech loader not a M/L. I have hunted big game with a Sharps for many years. I have used the loose powder type also, but much prefer the Ctg. Mdls. I think you may be a little off on powder Chgs Etc. It will depend on the slugs you use on how much powder you cam get into the chamber. The big long range 500 gr. .45 Cal. takes alot of room in the chamber. It depends also if you intend to load from the muzzle or the breech. These rifles tend to do better loaded from the muzzle.
 
Thanks for the reply. I believe that you may be right on it not being legal to shoot in black powder season in all of states which upsets me just because of the rolling block feature. However I still will get it for the heck of it. I think it would be neat to put on my wall to.:). Still though anyone know if IAB is any good.
 
I have an IAB Sharps paper cutter. The fit and finish are fine although the sights need improvement. My rifle is in 45-70. In the paper cutters they use an insert type chamber so a regular brass shell can't be used. That changes the working dimensions of the round. Plainly put, they don't hold as much powder as a cartridge gun. So, you will be limited in load variation.
The main problem I had to overcome was the same one that Civil War Berdan Sharps users faced. None of the systems used to stop gasses from escaping from the breech work very well. After about 200 rounds the rifle was allowing significant amounts of gas out the breech and the few grains of powder caught between the block face and breech face ignited during firing and started eroding the breech face. I had the gunsmith I bought the rifle from look at it and he said it could become unsafe over time. He replaced the rifle.
In explaining how I overcame this problem I must first say that I am in no way recommending this modification. And my explanation is in no way to be interpreted as instructions. In fact, I have deliberately left a couple of steps out that are necessary to make this work. I take no liability for any attempt to duplicate this. In fact, my advise is "don't do it".
First I pulled the face plate from the breech block and milled and inserted a piece of metal to fit the space behind the face plate. Then I replaced the face plate. It was now reinforced. After that, when I made my paper cartridges I used an empty, deprimed 45 ACP case to roll the paper cartridge and left the 45 case to act as the base of the paper cartridge. A piece of tape over the empty primer hole kept the paper round from leaking powder.
Now, when I fire the rifle the mouth of the case opens and creates a gas seal which stops the blow by. I extract the 45 brass with a piece of wire from the back.
It only holds 55 grains of powder but shoots very nice with a 350 gr. bullet.
It's a hybrid and the idea is not original. Don't know how a larger caliber would perform or problems the extra stress would cause. But I have owned two cartridge Sharps and much prefer them. They are worth the few extra dollars.
Just my 0.02. Good luck and be safe.
 
Thanks, I have heard of the corrosive problem before and was definitely making that a factor before buying it. I think what you did is a neat idea although the one I am getting is 54 cal and I can’t think of any brass to use. However I have seen on various web sites a brass cartridge designed for the paper cartridge sharps. It has a hole in the back for the spark from the musket cap and takes loose powder and a cone bullet. Very cool I think, it can be found on possible shop.com but it says it is only for pedrosoli. So I have to find one for IAB Sharps I have seen it somewhere before so I know it exist just got to look.
 
IAB Sharps

Me too! I've found at a local gun store a 1863 model .54 cal sharps carbine paper cartridge type rifle. It has a 22" brl with a saddle ring apparatus. Love the way it feels but I'm concerned about how it may shoot. I've heard about the "leaky" breech problem and wonder if it can be easily fixed or even if it's worth getting into. I like a carbine over a long rifle if loading and using this way but if I get a .45/70 Sharps repro then I'd probably want a 28" to 30" barrel. This carbine is on consignment from a divorce settlement situation and I think I can get it for $525-$550. I'd would want to hunt local Whitetail with it but target shoot mostly. What's the accuracy expectation from such a rifle?
 
I used to make a "gasket" for the face of the breech block from the plastic tops of coffee cans. A touch of glue just to hold it in place. Worked well for 30 or so shots.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
 
Couple things to consider...

1. A paper-cutter Sharps is NOT considered a modern cartridge firearm under the ATF rules. So no background check, 4473, etc. That can be rather nice.

2. Nothing wrong with loading a paper-cutter Sharps from the muzzle, last I heard. Leave the breechblock closed, dump in the powder and projectile from the muzzle end, then add the percussion cap. Voila' - a muzzleloader for muzzleloader season. A rather expensive but easy-to-clean muzzleloader, but a muzzleloader nonetheless.
 
Sharps paper cartridge carbine

I posted this on another BP thread too. Hoping to get some replies:

Anyone here have something good to say about the Sharps paper cartridge carbines? I'm wondering if they have too many problems to bother with. I like the idea of a breech loading shooter that doesn't require brass cleaning, priming and resizing or buying. Seems like it can be a low overhead shooter as bullet and powder is about all there is to deal with. Making the paper cartridges would be easy enough to do and the paper is LOT cheaper than brass. I am concerned with the breech leaking that someone says develops after a couple hundred shots. Is the brass insert a solution to this? Mabey a replaceable shim on the bolt face to curtail the corrosion caused by the powder burn? Finally and most important, what is the accuracy expectation? I hope a satisfied user steps up and a disgruntled one too. I like to look at both sides of a coin :scrutiny:
 
Hey CLB, I was the one who was talking about the blowby that Sharps paper cutters are notorious for. My 45-70 is accurate enough to take deer hunting. If I had the opportunity to get a .54 cal Sharps paper cutter, carbine at the right price I would be tempted. Like Desert Scorpion said they do offer a cartridge like insert that holds powder, bullet and all. That is the only way I would shoot one. If I had a .54 cal I would start by checking out the Dixie Gun Works Catalog. The current one shows a brass cartridge type insert in .54 cal. It is called a Gallager Cartridge Case. It is listed as being 1 5/8" long, taking a .540 conical bullet. The cartridge case is listed on page 300 of their current catalog. Their item number is K0604. These puppies are not cheap. They list at $4.50 each. If it was me I would buy a few and see if one of my machinist friends could duplicate them cheaper. They look sturdy, like they could be reused without resizing. The folks at Dixie are usually good about answering questions. By the way, I am in no way affiliated with Dixie. My hobby has put a couple of their kids through college, though. Good luck.:)
 
Smitty

Thanks Smitty. I'm wondering if I look hard enough there may be some kind of brass plumbing cap that would happen to fit or be easy enough to turn down to work. Add a hole and make an extractor to pluck it out with with and 'oila.

BTW, did you get a PM from me? I was hoping you'd reply. PM me if you didn't get it and I'll resend.
 
Hey I went ahead and bought the IAB Model 54 cal Sharps off of Dixie gun. It turned out to meet my requirements and even was better than I expected. Making paper cartridges is fun to me. I tried various types of rolling and making them. And after 3 different prototypes I have come up with a great cartridge. The reason I bought the IAB and not pedrosolli was because the IAB model had a flip up sight and maintained the simplicity design of the 1864 model which has no patch box. The pedrosolli however had a calvary model with no flip up sight and had brass I didnt want that, there other modle was to complicated I really did not want a patch box and a tape dispencer. The IAB firearm is perfect and fitted right, metal to wood finish is great. What I like a lot about the IAB model is that its breech bore diameter is tighter than that of the pedrosolli. So when sticking in your bullet and then powder into the breech it will only allow the bullet to drop in so far as to only allow 80 grains of powder. The pedrosolli actually allows up to 110 grains so im told. The manual also says that 80 grains is the limit in this rifle. So you can load it loosely without a paper cartridge with no problems. Loading the rifle is very quick I just pop open the breech and drop one of those neat looking paper bullets in and fire away. It gives you a sense of historical value when loading this gun. I can not really explain it. The whole reason I bought the gun was because I became board with regular cartridge firearms. It was just too easy to hunt with. This rifle gives me a fun and exciting challenge. The only two firearms I hunt with now are my sharps and a uberti 1851 square back trigger guard model fitted with some nifty ivory grips from Dixie gun works. This combination is great, and I am now finding that they both are highly accurate gun. To give you an idea just 3 hours before writing this I was out hunting jackrabbits with the sharps. You could call this overkill I guess, don’t hunt them with this gun if you plan on eating them, they want be much left of them. I put out a target at 287 yards so my GPS says, give or take 20 yards. I loaded a 80 grain paper cartridge into the sharps and did a nifty shooting position which I had just invented there and which actually turned out to be a very good position for this rifle. You lay on your back I am right handed so switch it all to the other side if your left handed. So you lay on your back with you left knee bent up at around a foot. Put your right leg on top of your left knee. Then lay your rifle on top of you right leg, flip up that nifty sharps sight and breath. Well I did this and I hit a target out that far (287) yards BAM Hit the 19”x19” metal target which made a really loud bang sound, really cool. This gun is very very accurate, I love it get it along wit ha navy 51 and your all set.
 
If you decide to by the IAB, here is a web site that has every part for the gun. They also sell those weird brass cartridges that you load yourself and but a musket conical on top, they still require a percussion cap but keep the guns life expectency better. There $30.00 dollars for 5 cartridges.:fire: www.vtigunparts.com;)
 
Gunparts link

Scorpion, could you check that link again and repost if necessary? I couldn't get it to load. Could have been web traffic or something...maybe sun spots! :D
 
Gun parts link

Nevermind. I found it on Google. No idea why your link didn't load cuz clicking it from Google took me there. Good site, I added it to my "collection" in Firearm favorites.:rolleyes:
 
Shilo Sharps sells a percussion Sharps that they told me,"does not blow gas at the breech". The forum at the Shilo Sharps web site has a group of knowledgeble people when it comes to those breech loading percussions rifles. Supposedly Pedersoli has improved their rifle to blow no gas. At leasst that's what I'm led to believe. Pedersoli does make a 45cal. percussion Sharps and I had one. It was as accurate as any other cartridge Sharps I've shot. Real accurate way out. Like way over 400 yards. Mine was an 1863 or 4? and was legal to hunt deer in Ohio. They (wildlife division) told me that as long as the ammo is not fixed and each component(cap,powder, bullet) is separate and not connected it's considered a breech loading muzzleloader. I killed deer with it. There is some trick or improverment to making the percussion Sharps not blow gas. The guys at the Shilo Sharps forum can tell you. Something about an "O" ring put behind the face plate of the breech block. Pedersoli says they put three washers back there. Personally I think that the "trick" to not blowing gas may work but.....if I got another percussion Sharps I'd want to keep those brass chamber casings on hand and for target and just use the paper cartridges to be legal to deer hunt with.
 
Aren’t they great (Rifle)! I love the Sharps rifles, and accuracy makes it all the better. About the gas problems. I have found that none of the companies that make the sharps have problems with gas breeching out the back. However all the different companies’ sharps sooner or later breech to some degree after a certain amount of bullets 400 + I could be off by 300 but you get the picture. What happens is every time you sheer that paper cartridge just a little bit of powder dust creeps between the breech block and the barrel. Over time the constant shooting causes it to corrode the breech block. Then you begin to have gas come out the back. You won’t have this problem if you buy that weird brass make it yourself cartridge. But they are not historically accurate but save the life of the gun. What is great about these cartridges is the fact that you load them yourself. Allowing you to choose what grain you want and what kind of powder. In a sense you are making a regular brass cartridge but no machines are needed to make it just your hands. And if you choose to go back to paper you can. Don’t let the gas breeching out the back problem deture you from wanting a paper cartridge sharps. An article I read deterred me from getting a paper sharps, because the guy kept complaining about gas leakage. I bought one anyways and am glad I did. I would not trade that rifle for anything now, except maybe wild bill Hickok’s pair of 1851 navies, and then maybe I would give it up. Remember that all guns corrode over time especially black powder. And when it begins to leak just by a new $40.00 breech block from the web site I gave above and you good to go again.


And keep in mind that most states definition of a black powder, season hunting allows this firearm.

I don’t have time but if someone could maybe find a web site that really shows the definition of black powder season legal firearms. Try to find were the paper sharps is legal and isn’t during that season. GOOD HUNTING.
 
Quality of sharps goes like this so im told. Shilo, pedrosolli, IAB. With a few other companies I know nothing about, they may go in between. I have see nthem all and they are all graet rifles it doesnt really matter so much what gun you get but what the companies provides for accessories. Here is and example of some trivia to keep in mind when choosing. Shilo takes time to roder some times all the way up to 5 years! Shilo does not offer really any accessories for the firearm eather. However most pedrosolli accessories match up with shilo, if that give you compfort. Pedrosolli I give the highest honors to although I dont own one of theres. They have the widest aray of accessories for theres quality is great and customer service is superb. IAB is between it all they have accessories for the gun but are hard to find. IAB does not make a bullet mold for there specific chambering, so you have to use pedrosolli bullets and there molds, they fit great though. IAB accessories can be found at the web site I attached above. IAB has moderate customer service. Also keep in mind that all IAB guns and accessories are actual from a company called Pedretti from italy. IAB is the importer.
 
Dessert Scorpion

Shootin those Jack bunnies sounds like great sport. Just make head shots and you can eat them! BTW, What bullet are you shooting in the Sharps? Also, does the model you bought have the 48:1 barrel twist ratio or 22:1 ?

That shooting pose you described reminded me of the one used by a famous pistol shooter of years ago. His name slips my mind right now. I think it was Elmer something.
 
CLB!

CLB! The Sharps I have is the carbine model. The reason I purchased the carbine and not the longer model so popular with hunters, is so that I could carry the carbine on a horse, and because of weight issues when hunting for long periods of time. I can only imagine the accuracy a longer barrel would give on one of these guns. I am currently shooting out of the sharps a bullet made by pedrosolli, forgive me if I spelled that wrong, the bullet is called “Cast Sharps Bullet” and can be found on a web site called “DixieGunWorks”. This particular bullet was actually designed for the pedrosoli sharps.:scrutiny: The bullet is a cone with grooves for greasing up or using to put glue in when making paper bullets, grains of the bullet 475 and diameter is 544. 1 out of 50 in a bag of 100 is imperfect and not proper for use, check them before loading in gun if you are planning on long range shots some have just a little more lead on one side of the bullet then the other this creates huge accuracy problems when shooting,:banghead: because weight ratio is imperfect. They sell a mold on that web site to, same company and everything, get it when it comes back in stock and make your own perfect bullets. When you load properly and make a perfect bullet you will have no trouble whacking coyotes at 500 + yards, and I mean whacking because you can hear that huge bullet hit them, and I am very serious about that believe me.:evil: Maybe just a lucky shot who knows. After 500 if that you can barley see with the human eye, the sights are good in eye relief though. “My sharps is IAB” and yes there is a difference in chamber diameter and rate of twist in both companies’ sharps.

IAB Sharps is tapered round 1.225" at breech to 13/16" at muzzle, button rifling .006" deep, 1-48" twist, 7 lands measure .540" and 7 grooves measure .552".

Pedrosolli Sharps is tapered round 1.250" at breech to .830" at muzzle, cut rifling .010" deep, 1-48" twist, 7 lands measure .520" and 7 grooves measure .540"


There is some what of a change in both companies as you can see. My barrel is 22 “and 39 overall. This size is perfect for me giving superb accuracy while still maintaining a small appearance and perfect balance. On the right side is a saddle ring which is great for me, it also has nifty flip up sights for increments of up to 800 yards.

About that shooting stance it is so great and I kind of made it up as I went. I sat on my carpet and began trying every method that I could. That position is what I came up with for this rifle. I works so good I know use it on all my guns that match the needed length to do the position. The stance is believed also derived from a man that was what I think is called “The Great Creedmoor Match” not sure if that is what it is called. It was a great match in the 1870’s when America was challenged by another country. I’m not sure but I think it was Ireland. Any ways America won of course, although the only reason we won was because one on there team shot the wrong target “IRISH” :eek: giving the US enough points to win. Of course rifles used in the match were Sharps and other customs.;) The Irish were using a neat looking muzzleloader. That is actually sold for quite a price on Dixie Gun Works. Anyways one of the Americans used a similar position as mine if not the same exact thing, im not sure I have to read the article again that was published in a Black Powder annual Magazine.

The only problems with the stance is that you have to lay in a fashion that gets your back all dirty, when in the field. You also have to have good eyes to look at your sights. Your neck can also cramp up after 30 seconds in the position. When firing the Sharps which by the way has an enormous kick to it not to mention no rubber but plate “BUT A METAL ONE” this can really heart your shoulder, hold it tight to you. Also don’t cock the gun until you are in the position and ready to fire, this is because your leg passes your barrel a few times wile getting in position. Hope that answers the question, good shootin!:D
 
Great info...Thanks!

Like I said, I'm waiting for a consignment gun to sell before I buy mine so your experience will definately affect my choice. Glad you like the carbine cuz that's the way I was leaning. I like something easy to transport around in the woods and I've held both long model Sharps and the carbine and the carbine "feels" great to hold and aim.
BTW, where do you live? Horseback, jack rabbits...umm...Arizona maybe? :rolleyes:
 
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