Shipping a C& B 'Conversion' Revolver

[Oyeboten]

Can a regular person ( me for example, ) who is legally okay to own Arms, and happens to have a C&R FFL, receive in Interstate Commerce or by Mail, a 1990s era reproduction Cap and Ball Revolver which has been converted to .45 LC?


I know that if only buying a 'conversion' Cylinder, it is alright with the BofATF andnowE for it to ship to me directly, and, it is alright if a Cap and Ball Revolver as such...but, what about an assembled, 'Conversion' of a Cap and Ball Revolver for Metallic Cartridge?

 

[mykeal]

No. A cap and ball revolver with a cartridge cylinder installed is a gun which fires modern cartridge ammunition and is therefore subject to the BATFE transfer requirements: when transferred to a resident of a different state it must be transferred by a licensed agent (an FFL). Your type 03 license does not qualify you to make that transfer as the gun is not on the C&R list and it is not over 50 years old.

 

[Oyeboten]

I kinda thought so...

Might get one from a private party...and, I want to make sure we do it right.

Probably, since it is offered for sale as-is, he could not now sell me and ship me the Frame in one deal, and, the Cylinder in another, without risking what to some, might be an appearance of a contrived impropriety..?

 

[mykeal]

It would certainly be a transparent attempt to circumvent the rules, but it would be legal. I frankly doubt BATFE would pursue it unless you made a habit of it, and if you did I don't think they'd win in court - the law doesn't regulate intent, just action.

It would be better if he sold the frame with a c&b cylinder installed (they're only about $40 or so) and then the cartridge cylinder in a separate transaction.

 

[Oyeboten]

Makes sense...


Thank you for your council.


I don't think he has a C&B Cylinder...conversion was gunsmith done quite a while back.


I guess I could send him my Cylinder...

Lol...

 

[mykeal]

Three legal options:
1) sell you the gun with no cylinder installed.
2) he purchases a c&b cylinder, installs it and sells you the gun.
3) you provide a c&b cylinder, he installs it and sells you the gun.

All 3 of the above transactions can be accomplished across state lines without transferring the gun through an FFL. A fourth option would be to use an FFL and transfer the cartridge cylinder with the gun, which would probably cost as much as the extra c&b cylinder for the transfer fee.

You're talking about $30-$40 or less here, not much when compared with the risk of a felony charge, justified or not.

I would personally use option 1, unless the seller was not willing, in which case I'd shop for the cheapest transfer fee and use the FFL. I have an FFL close to me that charges $20, and one further away that only charges $15, so for me it's pretty easy.

 

[vulture]

It really depends on the conversion that was installed on the gun. If the gun has been modified from it's original configuration, as in the frame being modified, then no, but if the original cylinder was removed and a conversion cylinder installed without modifying the original frame then yes. The original cylinder should be installed in the gun and then they can ship together, or at least that is my understanding. I have two of 1858 Remington replicas that have the R&D conversion cylinders installed and if I put the original cap and ball cylinders back in then the gun simply becomes a legal black powder firearm and the conversion cylinder is legal to ship through the mail.

 

[mykeal]

If the gun has been modified from it's original configuration, as in the frame being modified, then no,

I don't believe that's correct. Please provide your source for that position.

 

[w_houle]

If I put the original cap and ball cylinders back in then the gun simply becomes a legal black powder firearm and the conversion cylinder is legal to ship through the mail.

The same is true for both R&D style and Kirst (loading gate cut out) style. Also, you cannot mail the conversion cylinder in the same box as the BP pistol.

 

[ClemBert]

I'd just make it two distinct separate purchases. That is, two separate checks, money orders, paypal transactions, et al. First transaction is the conversion cylinder. It gets mailed first. The second transaction is for a black powder action. It gets mailed second.

 

[vulture]

mykeal, I'm sorry I can't give you the source. I read it in some article dealing with this issue. I wish I could remember where I read it. It didn't matter to me at the time because I wasn't interested in the loading gate style of conversion.

 

[mykeal]

I've been trying to chase this urban legend down for several months. It's simply not true; I can find no justification for it in any of the BATFE regulations or written opinions.

The overriding criterion is whether the gun shoots modern cartridge ammunition or not. Simply making it easier to load cartridges by installing a loading gate does not in itself make the gun a modern cartridge weapon; the loading gate has no function if a percussion cylinder is installed, other than perhaps to make it easier to install percussion caps. If the loading gate mod were to somehow make the frame such that ONLY a cartridge cylinder could be installed there might be an argument for that mod creating a firearm that required a licensee be used to transfer it and one that had to be registered in Michigan, but that's clearly not the case with the mods I've seen so far.

 

[Oyeboten]

This one has a Cylinder which accepts .45 LC in a normal manner, and, the Hammer appears to have a Firing Pin on it ( rather than that the Cylinder has the individual Firing Pins in-a-ring-end, integral with it's design, behind each Chamber).

Has a Loading Gate....Ejector Rod...

Cylinder has a 'square' rear...not rounded as a C&B Cylinder usually would.

Recoil shield has a fitted 'plate' or spacer which occupies the room the Original Cylinder round-end would have.

I am waiting for more info...

 

[nalioth]

This one has a Cylinder which accepts .45 LC in a normal manner, and, the Hammer appears to have a Firing Pin on it ( rather than that the Cylinder has the individual Firing Pins in-a-ring-end, integral with it's design, behind each Chamber).

Has a Loading Gate....Ejector Rod...

Cylinder has a 'square' rear...not rounded as a C&B Cylinder usually would.

Recoil shield has a fitted 'plate' or spacer which occupies the room the Original Cylinder round-end would have.

I am waiting for more info...

Why?

From your description, it's a cartridge gun now.

From your description, it can't be used as a C&B any longer. .

 

[Oyeboten]

Why?

From your description, it's a cartridge gun now.

From your description, it can't be used as a C&B any longer. .

It would appear so...yes...now that I have had a chance to look better.

I had not looked critically at the images untill now...Lol...merely felt charmed that it was an interesting for being a ( reproduction ) Dragoon, that had been 'converted' to Metallic Cartridge.

So...Hmmmm...


Probably would be best if it shipped to an FFL as-is.


Sorry I was slow to catch the more pertinent details of the Revolver...after I glanced at the image originally, I was just thinking of the usual Conversion kinds, and did not realize this one was different.

 

[mykeal]

From your description, it's a cartridge gun now.

From your description, it can't be used as a C&B any longer.

What is there about his description that makes you say that?

 

[nalioth]

From your description, it's a cartridge gun now.

From your description, it can't be used as a C&B any longer.

What is there about his description that makes you say that?

Let me highlight the points that leaped out at me . .

This one has a Cylinder which accepts .45 LC in a normal manner, and, the Hammer appears to have a Firing Pin on it ( rather than that the Cylinder has the individual Firing Pins in-a-ring-end, integral with it's design, behind each Chamber).

Has a Loading Gate....Ejector Rod...

Cylinder has a 'square' rear...not rounded as a C&B Cylinder usually would.

Recoil shield has a fitted 'plate' or spacer which occupies the room the Original Cylinder round-end would have.

I am waiting for more info...

Doesn't that seem like it's no longer designed for C&B usage?

 

[mykeal]

nalioth - I didn't know what gun it was that Oyboten was talking about (he didn't mention Dragoon until after both of our posts), but his description sounded a lot like the 1873 Cattleman percussion revolver sold originally by Uberti and more recently by Pietta through Cabela's. That gun has a firing pin on the hammer, a loading gate, an ejector rod and a cylinder with a 'square' rear end. And it's a cap and ball ONLY revolver. I have one and can supply pictures if you'd like; I've posted them on this forum recently. So, no, it didn't necessarily sound like it was no longer designed for c&b usage to me. However, now that he's identified it as a Dragoon I can see where that could very well be the case. I don't know anyone who makes a Dragoon percussion cylinder that would work in that environment, unlike the Uberti Cattleman. Obviously it could be done, however, based on the percussion Cattleman design.

 

[Oyeboten]

Here is the Revolver in question -


I really like it, but, I do not believe my finances will permit me the indulgence this Month...so, it's up for grabs if anyone feels interested in it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=158451149

 

[wobble]

Since this gun had been permanently converted to fire cartridges, it MUST be shipped via FFL. End of story.

 

[Oyeboten]

I suppose one could write to the B of A T F and now also E, and see if they would care to render a formal pronouncement regarding this particular configuration's standing with respect to a C&R FFL.

Various recent-made 'Commemoratives' chambering unambiguous Metallic Cartridge ammunition are allowed C&R status.

 

[nalioth]

I suppose one could write to the B of A T F and now also E,

. . and possibly kill the conversion cylinder business.

It doesn't pay to write them.

 

[mykeal]

Wobble is correct.

The gun in question, now that I've seen it, is clearly capable of firing ONLY modern cartridge ammunition. At one time in this thread the details were not clear, at least to me. To me the two telling issues are the spacer behind the cartridge cylinder (attached to the frame) and the hammer modification; those two mods mean you cannot simply reinstall the percussion cylinder and shoot 'antique' ammunition.

The loading gate mod and the ejector rod have no meaning in this context, in my opinion. Neither restrict the ability of the gun to shoot c&b ammo, and neither is mandatory to be able to shoot cartridge ammunition, so they're only cosmetic items.

 

[Oyeboten]

Well...

I have no intention of bothering myself or the B of A T F and now also E, with the trouble of any written questions.


If I did get this or a like-same 'Conversion' from out of State, where it had to be Shipped, I'd rather spend the fifty dollars for going through my local friendly enough Full House FFL...and call it macaronii.

Clark County Nevada, all Handguns have to be Registered with the County Sheriff, even if they are a Single Shot, Muzzle Loading Matchlock Pistol.

I respect the discretion of County Sheriffs in this matter...though I feel the burdon of Registration should be on the Hand Gun owner, and, not on any intermediary through whom or from whom he or she obtains a Handgun...and, even if I do not feel positive about federal gun laws overall.


So...in Clark County, when a full house FFL accepts a Handgun for someone else, which has been shipped in from out of state, the law requires them to do the background check and registration, same as if you had bought the Gun from them...so...in this case, it is $25.00 to receive a Gun by Mail on my behalf, and, $25.00 to do the procedurews for transfering it to me, and, registering it to me...or, however it is they slice-the-Pie anyway on that.

If I receive a C&R eligable Hand Gun myself, directly, I register it for free by merely going to a Police Station myself...thus costing me nothing but a little time and social interaction.