ATF cracking down on conversion cylinders

[dstorm1911]

Novus....... sales drop that means fewer firearms in civilian hands....... Aside from holding an 01, 02, 07 I'm also a licensed importer and Gunsmith... the latest thing for the BATF is to not approve form 6s (needed in order to import ANYTHING fiream related) for surplus Ammunition high priced commercial ammo is fine they'll approve that but in the past years surplus guns and ammo is like pulling teeth....... why? because while attempts to ban firearms has not worked out if ya raise the taxes on them and their paraphenial then ya reduce the number of enthusiast in the sport of shooting across the board, now if ya elliminate low price surplus ammunition ya reduce the number of enthusiast buying and shooting milsurps.......... after say 10 years all those who fell outa the shooting sports simply because it was too expensive will also no longer watching the bills going to the whitehouse... they are busy on the toy train collecting forums instead...... result ; fewer to oppose bills chipping away at the second amendment....

Or did ya think the BATF actually care about gun owners having plenty of guns? They care if dealers go under? ya know all them 4473s ya've ever filled out? well guess what partner if the dealers who collected those 4473s go outa business then the BATF gets ALL of their paperwork....... ALL of it, lost revenue from taxes?? I guess ya haven't noticed that the BATF doesn't need those taxes as they are funded via the much larger pool of taxes we all pay their budget isn't dependant upon how many taxes they collect they could care less their job in the 21st century is to reduce the number of shooting enthusiast , they make nothing on the sale of accesaries etc... like a conversion cyl. alone however if it were installed by an 07 then they can call it a new firearm as its now a cartridge gun.... now its manufacture can be taxed unless the cyl is installed by the non-licensed owner as he can legally "make" firearms for his own use without having to pay excise tax provided the "new" firearm is not made for the purpose of sale , everyone else........ they gotta get their tax


DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

27 CFR Part 53

[T.D. ATF-404; Ref: Notice No. 836]
RIN 1512-AB49


Firearms and Ammunition Excise Taxes, Parts and Accessories (97R-
1457P)

AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), Department of
the Treasury.

ACTION: Final rule, Treasury decision.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This final rule amends regulations relating to the
manufacturers excise tax on firearms and ammunition. Under 26 U.S.C.
4181, a tax is imposed on the sale by the manufacturer, importer or
producer of firearms, shells, and cartridges. The tax is 10 percent of
the sale price for pistols and revolvers, 11 percent for firearms
(other than pistols and revolvers), and 11 percent for shells and
cartridges. Current regulations provide that no tax is imposed by
section 4181 on the sale of parts or accessories of firearms, pistols,
revolvers, shells, and cartridges when sold separately or when sold
with a complete firearm. This final rule amends the regulations to
clarify which parts and accessories must be included in the sale price
when calculating the tax on firearms.

DATES: Effective November 30, 1998.

 

[Jim K]

Let me see, now. The U.S. pays out over 400 billion dollars on interest alone each year. The National debt is over 9 trillion dollars. And you guys seriously believe BATFE is going after the excise tax on a few thousand conversion cylinders in order to finance the government? Nonsense!

Their reasons are simple enough. They are charged with enforcing the law Congress wrote, and sworn to do just that. Fixed cartridge guns are regulated; separate loading guns are not. If the latter is changed to the former, it becomes a regulated firearm, and under BATFE's jurisdiction.

I did say those cylinders were "often" used by people who could not legally buy a cartridge revolver. That is not true in regard to actual criminals, who can easily get better guns, but it is true of juveniles who can order both the percussion revolver and the cylinder by mail, no questions asked.

Those who reject the idea that such a thing could be a wedge issue should review the origins of the Gun Control Act of 1968, which began as a ban on mail-order sales of handguns, primarily for racist reasons, and grew as domestic firearms manufacturers added military surplus to the ban (Winchester's lawyers wrote part of the law). But it was the "juvenile delinquents are getting guns" theme that got the bill started.

Jim

 

[Novus Collectus]

Aside from holding an 01, 02, 07 I'm also a licensed importer and Gunsmith

Impressive!
I still disagree with you, but you obviously have credentials.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Let me see, now. The U.S. pays out over 400 billion dollars on interest alone each year. The National debt is over 9 trillion dollars. And you guys seriously believe BATFE is going after the excise tax on a few thousand conversion cylinders in order to finance the government? Nonsense!

I agree.

I did say those cylinders were "often" used by people who could not legally buy a cartridge revolver. That is not true in regard to actual criminals, who can easily get better guns, but it is true of juveniles who can order both the percussion revolver and the cylinder by mail, no questions asked.

I disagree. There are not that many juveniles that even know about the exceptions, and the number is even fewer when one accounts for their usually not being able to afford such a gun and conversion cylinder at that age.
Also, people under 21 cannot easily buy .45 Long Colt or .38 Special, so that too is a deterring factor.

 

[JohnKSa]

I disagree. There are not that many juveniles that even know about the exceptions, and the number is even fewer when one accounts for their usually not being able to afford such a gun and conversion cylinder at that age.
Also, people under 21 cannot easily buy .45 Long Colt or .38 Special, so that too is a deterring factor.

Which gets us back to my question.

Just who IS buying these items to shoot .45LC when they could buy a complete revolver to shoot .45LC for the same price--and WHY?

I can see buying one if you get a really good deal on a used one, but SOMEONE (a lot of someones actually) is buying them new or there wouldn't be good deals to be had on used ones.

Is the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges in a BP revolver really so huge that people are willing to pony up more than the price of a cartridge revolver to buy a complicated and unwieldy system like these conversion cylinders? And that makes up the majority of sales?

 

[Novus Collectus]

Which gets us back to my question.

Just who IS buying these items to shoot .45LC when they could buy a complete revolver to shoot .45LC for the same price--and WHY?

I can see buying one if you get a good deal on a used one, but SOMEONE (a lot of someones actually) is buying them new or there wouldn't be good deals to be had on used ones.

Is the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges in a BP revolver really so huge that people are willing to pony up more than the price of a cartridge revolver to buy a complicated and unwieldy system like these conversion cylinders? And that makes up the majority of sales?

Please go back and look at my post describing why I bought mine. My reasons were three fold and I am sure there are many people out there which have at least one of the reasons in common and even more with legitimiate reasons of their own. Assuming a bunch of juveniles would expend an entire weeks pay of a full time job just for a cylinder when they can be just as happy with a cap and ball cylindered revolver alone or buy an illegal modern pistol for about the same price is no where near as likely IMO.
As others have pointed out, if one wanted to have a gun that would shoot many rounds, then they would just buy three or four cap and ball cylinders and load them for the same price as one drop in conversion cylinder.

And yes, the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges out of a cap and ball revolver really is a reason for some people with disposable income to buy one of the cynlinders. I have actually bought guns myself that I never even thought I would fire or not fire much because of the gee whiz factor. I bought a Khyber pass Enfield that is nothing but a wall hanger for instance just because of its gee whiz factor.

 

[mykeal]

Yup, a used cylinder is bound to be a bit cheaper. However, most of the places I look sell the ROA conversion cylinders for $240 to $320 (depending on the finish & other options) before shipping--you can certainly buy a complete .45LC revolver in that price range....

Yes, you can buy a complete .45LC revolver for $240 to $320. But it isn't a Ruger Old Army. Which matters a great deal.

 

[JohnKSa]

But it isn't a Ruger Old Army. Which matters a great deal.

There are conversion cylinders for other revolvers too. This isn't just about ROAs.

And yes, the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges out of a cap and ball revolver really is a reason for some people with disposable income to buy one of the cynlinders.

Yes, I believe that--see my emphasis added. But that was only half my question. The rest was: "And that makes up the majority of sales?"

I have no doubt that SOME people buy these for the gee whiz factor. I don't believe that is the reason for most of these purchases.

BTW, I've been focusing on the cost of JUST the cylinder. Remember that this thread actually began with an incident involving sales of the cylinders AND the revolvers at the same time. Go browse Midway Arms. They have a neat feature that shows you other things that customers purchased along with a particular item. Click on any cap & ball revolver and you'll find that the people buying the revolvers are often buying the conversion cylinders along with them. By the time you add THAT cost up you're definitely in the price range of a nice .45LC revolver. Yes, mykeal, even one as nice as a Ruger Old Army.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Yes, I believe that--see my emphasis added. But that was only half my question. The rest was: "And that makes up the majority of sales?"

I have no doubt that SOME people buy these for the gee whiz factor. I don't believe that is the reason for most of these purchases.

As I have repeatedly stated, there are numerous legitimate reasons why and I listed at least three with the gee whiz factor being just one of them.
But let's face it, the novelty aspect and advertising coercing people to buy stuff out of a curiousity or because of a "gee whiz, cool gismo" factor is a powerful one and a HUGE marketting force. THink about it, just how many Ronco devices have been sold to people that don't need one just because it was well advertised, well talked about by word of mouth or simply cool and novel.
Remember the pet rocks? How many people paid money for a friggen rock fer cryin' out loud!!

Yes, I believe that--see my emphasis added. But that was only half my question. The rest was: "And that makes up the majority of sales?"

I have no doubt that SOME people buy these for the gee whiz factor. I don't believe that is the reason for most of these purchases.

And I disagree especially because I am one of those people that bought it for that reason among others.

People buy guns or gun accessories for the gee whiz factor all the time. I am willing to bet a huge portion of C&R sales are for just the same reason.

Asking why people would spend more money on a conversion cylinder when there are real guns they can buy is like asking why someone buys two of the same firearm or a second gun that is almost the same as the first but with just a slight modification.
It is their money and they can do what they want with it. It happens a lot and that is probably where the bulk of the conversion sales go.

BTW, I've been focusing on the cost of JUST the cylinder. Remember that this thread actually began with an incident involving sales of the cylinders AND the revolvers at the same time. Go browse Midway Arms. They have a neat feature that shows you other things that customers purchased along with a particular item. Click on any cap & ball revolver and you'll find that the people buying the revolvers are often buying the conversion cylinders along with them. By the time you add THAT cost up you're definitely in the price range of a nice .45LC revolver. Yes, mykeal, even one as nice as a Ruger Old Army.

As I have also said before there are other reasons why some people go this route. Some people added a few other reasons.
Some people like firing cap and ball sometimes, and cartridges at other times.
Some people are law abiding, but just don't like the idea of the government knowing their business so avoid buying an actual handgun.
Some people live in states with intrusive gun control laws (like mine) and want a legal way around them (like the seven day waiting period and such).
Some people just simply like the novelty and buy both at the same time.

Some plus some plus some plus some plus some adds up.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Oh, and as another example, when I bought my Nagant revolver I also bought the .32 ACP conversion cylinder for it even though I could have bought a brand new .32 Cobra Arms or a used Lorcin semi auto gun for the same price or for even less. I see this as no different.

 

[JohnKSa]

And I disagree especially because I am one of those people that bought it for that reason among others.

Which puts us at a bit of an impasse. Especially because I am one of those people who would NOT buy it for that reason.

I also think that perhaps you're over-emphasizing the "gee-whiz factor" reason for your purchase a bit given your lengthy explanation of the legal implications of purchasing a cartridge handgun in MD and how you've managed to keep your cartridge handgun purchases from the state thus far. That, IMO, gets more to the heart of this issue and I find it a little amusing that you protest that people don't buy conversion cylinders to circumvent certain legal issues when you admit that is precisely one of the reasons you did so (the first reason you mentioned in point of fact).

 

[Novus Collectus]

I also think that perhaps you're over-emphasizing the "gee-whiz factor" reason for your purchase a bit given your lengthy explanation of the legal implications of purchasing a cartridge handgun in MD and how you've managed to keep your cartridge handgun purchases from the state thus far. That, IMO, gets more to the heart of this issue and I find it a little amusing that you protest so much that people don't buy conversion cylinders to circumvent certain legal issues when you admit that is precisely one of the reasons you did so (the first reason you mentioned in point of fact).

Yes, yes, yes, it is one of the legitimate reasons of avoding some processes required in the handgun laws by purchasing a conversion cylinder along with a cap and ball revolver I mentioned and pointed out! A large number of lawful gun owners simply don't like the government knowing they have guns and some just don't want to put up with the state processes.
I circumvented no law, I simply avoided a legal process that would come with buying a cartridge gun I had no desire to confront and there are some of the conversion cylinder purchasers that do so with the exact same legitimate purpose as I.

YOu are not just dismissing the gee whiz factor and minimizing it, you are also apparently not recognizing the myriad of other legitimate reasons people would buy a cap and ball revolver as well as the conversion cylinder to go along with it.

But even if 18 year olds are converting their cap and ball revolvers as you are seeming to imply is rampant, then in many states it is perfectly legal for them to do so. However, as stated before, they will have a hell of a time legally buying the handgun ammo for it. If a juvenile is willing to go through the trouble of getting someone else to buy ammo for them illegally, or to buy ammo illegally on the street, then chances are they already had a source for an illegal handgun and didn't need to buy a more expensive and primitive handgun system.
Simply put, it has to be rare for criminals or juveniles to be purchasing these guns as a way around the federal handgun laws or in attempt to do so getting away with a violation of the law.

Oh, and I thought of another reason some people could buy the replica guns and the conversion cylinders. Some people don't live anywhere near an FFL and since they cannot order a handgun from out of state, but they can order conversion cylinders, cap and ball revolvers and ammunition in the mail, this way is convenient for them.

 

[dstorm1911]

MYKEAL, Ruger Blackhawk............ same gun in cartridge form, thats what the Ruger old Army started as....... I screwed up a couple weeks ago and passed a couple Super blackhawk 44s a local shop had at $250 ea off to a friend then the next day decided to go back and buy em....... wouldn't ya know he actually went straight to the shop after I called him and bought em!!

 

[JohnKSa]

I circumvented no law

I agree and I was careful not to say that you did. However, you did legally skirt the legal issue of having MD apprised of a handgun purchase you made. I didn't mean to imply that you were breaking or circumventing the law.

But even if 18 year olds are converting their cap and ball revolvers as you are seeming to imply is rampant...

Well, I didn't mean to say imply that those under 21 are the main purchasers--but I do believe that the majority of people who buy them are doing so because they can't or don't want to buy a firearm through normal channels, not just because the cylinders are really cool to own.

...they will have a hell of a time legally buying the handgun ammo for it.

They can't legally buy it directly from a retailer, but it's not reasonable to compare it to having someone do a strawman firearms purchase. Strawman purchases are easily traced but it would be nearly impossible to prove that person A gave person B a handful of shells (and therefore similarly difficult to prosecute which essentially eliminates the risk to the person providing the ammunition illegally). Besides, see below.**

...then in many states it is perfectly legal for them to do so.

Why are we assuming that only those over 18 are buying these things? The whole point is that if the seller doesn't see the buyer in person it's virtually impossible to verify what the buyer claims is the truth.

**The most you need to order cartridge ammunition or a BP revolver online is a copy of a DL and that's easily altered or made up if you can't snag Dad's for a few minutes. The last time I bought a quantity of handgun ammunition online I didn't even have to provide a DL copy--just poked my age into the proper spot on the form and that was good enough.

Anyway, my point is that these cylinders are, IMO, primarily sold to people who want firearms but can't or won't buy guns through the normal legal channels. Sometimes it's legal (as in your case), sometimes it's not, and sometimes that's not an issue at all--people buy them just for fun. I'm saying that the latter case is, in my opinion, the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Dstorm1911, I know that I can drop the percussion cylinder in just as fast but there are 2 things I'm considering. 1) I don't have to wonder, so much, if the 45LC are going to fire, and more importantly 2) the rugrats have to figure out how to get the percussion cyl. out before they can put the conversion in!

 

[sundance44s]

One good Reason for buying

I think Remmie conversion cylinders are the best invention since peanut butter , And are historically correct ..which to us proud gun collectors is very important . Some of us ( ME ) feel like just maybe it wasn`t the invention of the Colt peacemaker that won the west ..MR. Remingtions conversion cylinders could have and did play a large role in the tameing of the wild west .

And like what happened in New Orleans after Katrina ..when the goverment goes door to door takeing guns regestered to the partys involved ...My Remmingtons with conversion cylinders ( all 4 of them )...don`t exist .

 

[dwave]

My Remmingtons with conversion cylinders ( all 4 of them )...don`t exist .

They do now......Big Brother is watching this thread.