Shipping a gun to yourself out of state?

[dab102999]

Yes thank you

 

[Vector]

Why? There is no need to send it through a dealer. Nor is there a need to overnight the package, or pay for anything special. You may walk into USPS with the package, tell them "I have a package to send", and send it. No need to even tell them what's inside it, as long as it's a long gun. Insurance is suggested, though.

Aside from your belief that there is no need to send it through a dealer, your comment I bolded made me wonder.
I assumed you needed to tell the USPS you were shipping a long gun. But if I read what you said correctly, you can mail a package to yourself with a long gun in it without notifying personnel at the USPS, and it is legal?

`

 

[Frank Ettin]

The rules for the mailing of rifles and shotguns are set out in paragraph 12.2 of the USPS Domestic Mail Manual:

12.2 Rifles and Shotguns

Except under 12.1.1d and 12.1.2, unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable. Mailers must comply with the rules and regulations under 27 CFR, Part 478, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and not ineligible for mailing under 12.1.1d. The following conditions also apply:

a. Subject to state, territory, or district regulations, rifles and shotguns may be mailed without restriction when sent within the same state of mailing. These items must bear a “Return Service Requested” endorsement, and must be sent by Express Mail (“signature required” must be used at delivery), Registered Mail, or must include either insured mail service (for more than $200) requiring a signature at delivery or Signature Confirmation service.

b. A shotgun or rifle owned by a non-FFL may be mailed outside the owner's state of residence by the owner to himself or herself, in care of another person in the state, where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. These mailpieces must:

1. Be addressed to the owner.

2. Include the “in the care of” endorsement immediately preceding the name of the applicable temporary custodian.

3. Be opened by the rifle or shotgun owner only.

4. Be mailed using services described in 12.2a..

c. Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in 12.2a..

d. Except as described in 12.1.2a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to FFL licensed curio and relic collectors in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in 12.2a..

e. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without restriction.

f. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a are mailable. A shipment containing an air gun with a muzzle velocity of 400 or more feet per second (fps) must include an Adult Signature service under 503.9.0. Mailers must additionally comply with all applicable state and local regulations.

 

[scythefwd]

actually you can be bequeathed a firearm from someone without going through a FFL. You can enact a will before you die, so yes it can be done.. but its a pain in the butt and should probably involve a lawyer to do it that way. I'd recommend you get a FFL in NC who is willing to recieve the gun and transfer it to you.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...actually you can be bequeathed a firearm from someone without going through a FFL...

A major downside with this plan is that the person giving the OP the gun needs to die first. But it's my impression that the person giving the OP the gun might be interested in continuing to live for some time.

 

[smalls]

I re read what Frank posted a few times, and I believe that I'm correct, I don't see anything about notifying them of what's inside. I may be missing something, though, if anyone else can see something I'm not?

 

[scythefwd]

Frank, negative. You can enact a will prior to death. There are some legal loops to jump through to do it though I believe. Its not just a simple.. I'm enacting my will thing.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank, negative. You can enact a will prior to death. There are some legal loops to jump through to do it though I believe. Its not just a simple.. I'm enacting my will thing.

I'm sorry, but you don't understand these things.

[1] You might "believe", but I know. I'm a lawyer.

[2] One doesn't "enact" a will. One has a will written.

[3] One of course has a will written before he dies.

[4] But property doesn't pass to the intended recipients (called "beneficiaries") until after the person who made the will (called the "testator") dies.

[5] After the testator dies, the usual procedure is that a person designated by the testator in the will as his personal representative (the "executor"), files the will in the proper ("probate") court (has the will "admitted to probate"). Then under the supervision of the probate court, the executor marshals the assets of the testator (now usually called the "decedent"), pays any outstanding taxes and other debts of the decedent, and then distributes upon the direction of the probate court any remaining assets of the decedent's estate to the persons designated by the will to receive them.

[6] But all that, the distribution of property, doesn't happen until the person who has made the will is dead.

[7] A "living will" is something completely different. It is sometimes called an "advance health care directive." It is a way to make known what sort of medical treatments you will want or not want at such time as you become incapable or making those decisions yourself. Property doesn't pass to others through a living will.

 

[NavyLCDR]

18 USC 922 requires a shipper to notify a common or contract carrier IN WRITING if a shipment contains a firearm that is going out of state to anyone other than an FFL. Since the US Postal Service is neither a common or contract carrier, this requirement in Federal law does not apply to US Postal Service. US Postal Service is governed by the Postal Regulations sections of Code of Federal Regulations.

 

[wgsigs]

Frank, there was a previous discussion, either here or on another gun forum, where the section of the GCA regarding the shipping of handguns by a non-FFL through a common carrier (UPS, Fed-Ex) was posted. It was interpreted by some posters (I don't know if they were lawyers or not) that the non-FFL sender did NOT have to notify the common carrier, either verbally or written, that the package contained a firearm. In your professional opinion was that the correct interpretation? I apologize for the slight digression and appeal for free legal advice, but my question is somewhat related.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Frank, there was a previous discussion, either here or on another gun forum, where the section of the GCA regarding the shipping of handguns by a non-FFL through a common carrier (UPS, Fed-Ex) was posted. It was interpreted by some posters (I don't know if they were lawyers or not) that the non-FFL sender did NOT have to notify the common carrier, either verbally or written, that the package contained a firearm. In your professional opinion was that the correct interpretation? I apologize for the slight digression and appeal for free legal advice, but my question is somewhat related.

Whether or not a non-FFL is doing the shipping does not matter. What matters, in Federal law is that the gun is 1. Going out of state AND 2. Going TO a non-FFL. Federal law is clear, plain and simple on this:

18 USC 922(e) :

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

 

[scythefwd]

Frank, I'm fully aware of what a living will is.. its in a similar vein to a do not revive.

I wonder if its a state thing.. I've seen it done, with lawyers present in IL... I dont remeber exactly what it was called.. but basically the guy was on his deathbead and had his lawyer start the processing the terms of his will.

 

[Frank Ettin]

... I dont remeber exactly what it was called.. but basically the guy was on his deathbead and had his lawyer start the processing the terms of his will.

We've spent entirely too much time on this already.

But the bottom line is that property does not get distributed under a will until the person who made the will is dead. If you want someone to take possession of a gun of yours before you die, you can't do that by a will.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Frank, I'm fully aware of what a living will is.. its in a similar vein to a do not revive.

I wonder if its a state thing.. I've seen it done, with lawyers present in IL... I dont remeber exactly what it was called.. but basically the guy was on his deathbead and had his lawyer start the processing the terms of his will.

Let's say I have a TV set that I want to go to my son in my will. There is nothing saying that I can't have my lawyer give the TV set to my son a month before I die. There is nothing saying I can't tell my lawyer to distribute my estate completely, according to the terms of the will, before I die. That is simply a distribution of property according to a written set of instructions.

If it is a firearm, and the recipient is not a same state resident - if the transfer of ownership happens before the giver dies, it has to go through an FFL. If the transfer of the ownership happens after the giver dies, it doesn't. Simple as that.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...the GCA regarding the shipping of handguns by a non-FFL through a common carrier (UPS, Fed-Ex) was posted. It was interpreted by some posters (I don't know if they were lawyers or not) that the non-FFL sender did NOT have to notify the common carrier, either verbally or written, that the package contained a firearm...

NavyLCDR has correctly cited the applicable federal law.

The confusion seems to come from the fact that the FedEx and UPS tariffs require verbal notice to the counter person that the package contains any gun (in the case of FedEx) or a handgun (in the case of UPS). While failure to comply with the tariff is not a crime, it is a breach of the contract of shipment and will support denial of any insurance claim if the package is lost or its contents damaged.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If the transfer of the ownership happens after the giver dies, it doesn't [need to go through an FFL]. Simple as that.

It's not quite as simple as that. The transfer of ownership must either be under a will or in accordance with applicable intestate succession laws if the decedent didn't have a will. That is what is specified in the federal law. See for example 18 USC 922(a)(5), emphasis added:

...except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm​

Note that in law a "bequest" is specifically a gift under a will, and state laws will define the terms and process for intestate succession.

So proper state law procedures will need to be followed (for probate of the will or administration of the intestate estate). It doesn't appear that the requirements of federal law would be satisfied by Son clearing out Deceased Father's closet and giving a gun to his Buddy in another State.