Shipping a rifle to yourself?

[Phaethon]

I bought a rifle at a gunshow some time ago near Dallas Texas, where my father lives, and after shooting it for the summer and spending some time with family in less violent ventures, I greased it up and returned to my Florida home to complete my school year.

Now, I've been really wanting to shoot my rifle again. I wonder, is it legal to have my father ship my gun from Texas to Florida? I remember reading somewhere that it's legal to ship a rifle to yourself or someone in advance if you intend to engage in a lawful activity, but can it work the other way around? Can that person ship my weapon back to me?

I wonder, because I don't feel like driving 3,000 miles just to have to clean that damn thing again.

 

[nalioth]

I remember reading somewhere that it's legal to ship a rifle to yourself or someone in advance if you intend to engage in a lawful activity, but can it work the other way around?

You can ship to yourself, legally.

You cannot ship to someone else unless it goes through an FFL.

Can that person ship my weapon back to me?

You will have to go to Dallas to ship it to yourself in Florida.

If anyone else does it, it'll have to go through a Florida FFL.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Probably the easiest, cheapest, and legal way to get your gun back would be to find a Florida FFL who will receive the gun from your dad. Your dad mails the gun to the FFL in Florida who transfers it to you.

Otherwise, the only other legal way to get the rifle back is to make the trip back to Texas.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I just edited my post to say the only OTHER legal option... both options in post #4 are legal.

 

[deadin]

I'm wondering if the gun is "legal" in the first place.
He said he bought it at a gun show in Texas while he was visiting his father. Sounds like he is a resident of Florida.
Hopefully he bought it from a FFL. (or has dual residency)

 

[Phaethon]

Well, my dad is coming down here in April, so if he just treated it as his rifle couldn't he ship it to himself in advance and then just hand over possession of it to me when he gets here?

 

[dogtown tom]

Phaethon Well, my dad is coming down here in April, so if he just treated it as his rifle couldn't he ship it to himself in advance and then just hand over possession of it to me when he gets here?

Sure he can.........if you are both prepared to be treated as felons if caught. It is a violation of Federal law by both of you.....you for receiving the firearm, your father for illegally transferring possession to you.

If the gun is YOURS:
-You can come back to Texas and mail or ship it yourself back to your home in Florida. NO ONE ELSE can ship the firearm addressed to you.
-You could fly back with it as checked luggage.
-Your father can ship it to the Florida dealer of your choice for transfer to you.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Well, my dad is coming down here in April, so if he just treated it as his rifle couldn't he ship it to himself in advance and then just hand over possession of it to me when he gets here?

Why ship it? Why not just bring it with him?

Shipping it to himself as his own rifle to himself and then "transferring it" to you would be illegal.

Either it is his gun or your gun. If it's his gun, it is legal for him to ship it to himself, but illegal for him to transfer it to you without an FFL.

If it is your gun, than it is illegal for him to ship it out of state to anyone other than an FFL.

If it is your gun, there is nothing illegal about him bringing the gun with him and delivering it to you.

I'm wondering if the gun is "legal" in the first place.
He said he bought it at a gun show in Texas while he was visiting his father. Sounds like he is a resident of Florida.
Hopefully he bought it from a FFL. (or has dual residency)

I saw that too, I just wasn't going to go there....

Like deadin stated, if at the time of purchase you were not a resident of Texas, and just visiting there, and you bought the gun from a private party in Texas, then the purchase was illegal. The definition of resident for the purposes of firearms transactions is presence in a state with the intention of making a home there.

 

[Phaethon]

I got it when I was a lot younger (16 I think), I presume that it's technically his, but I personally don't remember any sort of paperwork as we walked out with it right after I paid for it. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

As for bringing it with him, he's the anxious sort. I know he'd never agree to bring it with him on a car, nevermind a plane. Even getting him up to ship it is a long shot, but I want that thing back already.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

NavyLT;

Shipping it to himself as his own rifle to himself and then "transferring it" to you would be illegal.

Either it is his gun or your gun. If it's his gun, it is legal for him to ship it to himself, but illegal for him to transfer it to you without an FFL.

If it is your gun, than it is illegal for him to ship it out of state to anyone other than an FFL.

If it is your gun, there is nothing illegal about him bringing the gun with him and delivering it to you.

And people think gun control laws are complicated....pshaw!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Well, we've given you the two legal options. Ship it to an FFL in Florida, or go back to Texas and get it. We will assume that your dad bought the rifle and that you were still a legal resident of Texas at the age of 18 when he gave it to you as a gift between two Texas residents.

Texas state law:

Sec. 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to any person knowing that the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered intends to use it unlawfully or in the commission of an unlawful act;

(2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases, or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;

Your best bet to maintain or establish any resemblance of legality at this point is for your dad to send the rifle to an FFL in Florida who will transfer it to you.

Actually, I didn't read far enough down in the Texas statute:

(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or the person having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or person having legal custody had given effective consent.

 

[Hunter2678]

good info

 

[Top_Gunn]

If it is your gun, there is nothing illegal about him bringing the gun with him and delivering it to you.

(quoting NavyLT

How clear is this? I was faced with this situation a couple of years ago: My son, then a resident of the same state as I am, went into the army, got sent overseas, and left his guns here. He said I could use one of them while he was gone, and I did. Four years later he got out of the army and moved to a different state. I was not 100% sure I could take his guns to him when I went for a visit. Sure, they were his guns, and there would be no transfer of ownership, but there would be a transfer of possession, and I was concerned whether that would be enough of a "transfer" to trigger the FFL requirement. In the end, I decided that it was probably OK, but that the safest thing to do was wait until he came here and let him pick them up himself. Even that made me just a little nervous, though, since you could look at my handing him the key to my safe as a "transfer," and we were then residents of different states. Granted, it would be insanely stupid to say that a guy couldn't take his own guns with him, but insanely stupid is not unknown in the world of gun laws.

 

[NavyLCDR]

18 USC 922 (a)(5):

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

There was nothing illegal about your son loaning his gun to you. There is nothing illegal about you returning the gun he loaned you back to him.

Shipping that gun, via a common or contract carrier, interstate, to a non-licensed person (non-FFL), is an entirely different subsection of law and has it's own requirements.

 

[Top_Gunn]

Well, probably. But four years doesn't look all that temporary. I was never worried about his leaving them here, since we were then residents of the same state, just about my giving them back. That was certainly a transfer of possession. I'm pretty sure ownership doesn't have to change for a transfer between residents of different states to require going through an FFL. Suppose I lease a gun to somebody across the state line for four years, for a couple hundred bucks. That ought to be and almost certainly is a crime. Lack of payment can't make it all that different, since we know that an interstate gift is a crime, too. Consider this case: I can't give him a gun without going through an FFL. Can I take one to his house and leave it there for a couple of years? Surely not.

I'm confident that you're right. But I don't see the law as being completely clear.

 

[Mighty_Joe_Young]

I bought a rifle at a gunshow some time ago near Dallas Texas, where my father lives, and after shooting it for the summer and spending some time with family in less violent ventures, I greased it up and returned to my Florida home to complete my school year.

Now, I've been really wanting to shoot my rifle again. I wonder, is it legal to have my father ship my gun from Texas to Florida? I remember reading somewhere that it's legal to ship a rifle to yourself or someone in advance if you intend to engage in a lawful activity, but can it work the other way around? Can that person ship my weapon back to me?

I wonder, because I don't feel like driving 3,000 miles just to have to clean that damn thing again.

Most of the information posted in reply to you has just been BAD.

The firearm in question was legally transferred to you. Provided you may legally possess this same firearm in Florida, there is nothing prohibiting your father from shipping it directly to you. (Your father is an agent empowered to act on your behalf in this matter; it's the same as if you were shipping it.)

The '68 GCA is concerned with the INTERSTATE COMMERCE in firearms and the LEGAL TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP of firearms as regulated by the '68 GCA. There is no transfer of ownership here.

Advise your dad to box it up securely, make no markings upon the exterior of the package, insure and ship.

Contrary to the FAQs on the BATFE's website -- which do NOT qualify as a binding legal determination -- you are under no legal obligation to declare the contents of the package.

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me and I will answer them.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

[NavyLCDR]

Contrary to the FAQs on the BATFE's website -- which do NOT qualify as a binding legal determination -- you are under no legal obligation to declare the contents of the package.

We can demonstrate your ignorance of this topic by addressing this one statement of yours. The rest of your post is erroneous as well, but I'll let others point out your errors in the rest of your post.

18 USC 922 (e) is United States Code. Federal Statute. It's not regulation, and it's not interpretation. It is Federal LAW.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

We have Mr. X's dad shipping a firearm to Mr. X. Neither Mr. X, nor Mr. X's dad are licensed (FFLs). The gun is going to move in interstate commerce between Texas and Florida. Therefore, 18 USC 922 (e) certainly DOES require Mr. X's dad to declare to the common or contract carrier that a firearm is being shipped... AND that notification must be IN WRITING!

That's just one example of the displayed ignorance you possess on this topic.

 

[Mighty_Joe_Young]

That's just one example of the displayed ignorance you possess on this topic.

So, so wrong and so, so quick to resort to petty insults without understanding what you're posting.

Please pay attention to the section of the '68 GCA you're quoting:

"...interstate or foreign commerce..."

Neither Phaethon nor his father are engaged "in the business" of repairing or selling firearms, therefore this particular instance doesn't qualify as "interstate commerce," which is the intent of the '68 GCA. This is not a situation of a gunsmith returning a firearm. Again, feel free to PM me if there's something you don't understand. My advice is sound and I'm willing to provide it to others including squid khakis. You may also write the BATFE's legal department and receive the very same determination in writing on BATFE letterhead.

 

[dogtown tom]

Mighty Joe might want to review the CFR before you stroll into the deep end.












This will be EPIC.

 

[Mighty_Joe_Young]

Mighty Joe might want to review the CFR before you stroll into the deep end.

Already have. And as stated previously, the focus of the '68 GCA is on interstate COMMERCE. Savvy? COMMERCE. Very little in the '68 GCA is directed at unlicensed inviduals. There is no COMMERCE involved in the scenario described by Phaethon. As stated previously, a written request to the BATFE's legal department will produce a BINDING legal determination stating as such.

 

[dogtown tom]

Mighty_Joe_Young

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Mighty Joe might want to review the CFR before you stroll into the deep end.

Already have. And as stated previously, the focus of the '68 GCA is on interstate COMMERCE. Savvy? COMMERCE.

Your complete ignorance of Federal firearms law and how it is codified into Federal regulations is appalling.

.... Very little in the '68 GCA is directed at unlicensed inviduals.

Ahhhh......but this is:

478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees. top
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section: (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[T.D. ATF–313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]

There is no COMMERCE involved in the scenario described by Phaethon.

Ship a firearm across state lines to a nonlicensee and you violate Federal law. Savvy?

As stated previously, a written request to the BATFE's legal department will produce a BINDING legal determination stating as such.

Uhhh......I posted the Federal regulation.
Now please post that determination letter from ATF that you are claiming disagrees with CFR 478.30

 

[Mighty_Joe_Young]

Ahhhh......but this is:

478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees. top
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section: (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

And a firearm is not being transferred in this scenario. Phaethon was already legally transferred this firearm.

There is no COMMERCE involved in the scenario described by Phaethon.
Ship a firearm across state lines to a nonlicensee and you violate Federal law. Savvy?

And the firearm is not being sold. Savvy?

Uhhh......I posted the Federal regulation.
Now please post that determination letter from ATF that you are claiming disagrees with CFR 478.30

Uhhh, no one did my legwork and I'm not about to do yours.

 

[nalioth]

Uhhh, no one did my legwork and I'm not about to do yours.

dogtown tom and NavyLT have posted links backing up their information, where is yours?

Your non-answer pretty much removes all the air from your sails here.

 

[Mighty_Joe_Young]

Uh, I did post a link to the '68 GCA, the same information as quoted via the Cornell Law Library and posted by the others. It's in my first post. <deleted>

 

[NavyLCDR]

And a firearm is not being transferred in this scenario. Phaethon was already legally transferred this firearm.

<deleted>

478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees. top
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section: (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

<deleted>

transport, or deliver=