Shoot 'Em Til They Drop Theory...

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A common teaching in firearms training is that you will be able to get your gun out and use it and immediately stop the threat in their tracks.
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Strawman premise. This is not a common teaching.

Even if you do land rounds (including multiple rounds) on the threat, do you really expect them to just fall down and die?
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Given the strawman premise, apparently you think we do believe and expect this.

According to Lt. Col Dave Grossman’s teachings, most people who are shot don’t know they are shot because the body shuts down all secondary senses such as pain.
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You are going to have to show us Grossman's data on this. I can't find where he actually has data to substantiate it. While it does happen, the folks that I know that have been shot all managed to be quite aware of it.

You will react how you have trained to handle a situation whether or not you want to believe it—it is a proven fact and Grossman’s teachings back this up.
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NO! This is not a proven fact. It is a working theory. If you go back and reread Grossman's work ON KILLING, you will find his data from the Civil War through Vietnam stating how well trained soldiers did NOT fight as they trained, many failing to actually fire their rifles - repeatedly.

For a firearms instructor, you say some strange things.
 
What do I think about "Shooting 'Em Till They Drop?"

...well, it's probably a much more workable alternative than "Shoot 'em once and hope they stop" or "Shoot at 'em and miss until they go away." :scrutiny:;)

Actually, "shoot 'em to the ground" is more of a counter-reaction to the "one-shot stop" fallacy promulgated in gun publications, as well as the traditional "2-shots-and-assess" training drill - it is an acknowledgement of the inherent impotence of any and all handguns when compared to centerfire rifles or shotguns. Brian@ITC is actually making the same point - if you train to expect one or two shots to stop your assailant, you're setting yourself up for failure. What Brian@ITC would like you to do instead...is sign up for his Advanced Pistol Fighting course: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=425642. (He'd just rather not be gauche and say so up front.) ;)

So, what should you do if you CAN draw, AND shoot your attacker, and he DOESN'T stop, drop, surrender or run? How about...SHOOT HIM AGAIN, UNTIL HE DOES?!?

What if you've shot (at) him until your gun is empty? How about...RELOADING AND SHOOTING HIM AGAIN, UNTIL HE IS NO LONGER A THREAT TO YOU?!?

What if the bad guy hasn't been stopped by your hail of bullets, and is now within arm's reach? How about...BLUDGEONING HIM INTO SUBMISSION WITH YOUR (EMPTY/LOADED) GUN?!?

What if the bad guy opens the dance by distracting you and attacking from ambush, so you don't even get the chance to draw your gun? How about...COUNTERATTACKING WITH YOUR BARE HANDS SO THAT YOU CAN EITHER BREAK AND RUN, OR BEAT HIM DOWN?!?

Hmmmm...I seem to have been able to come up with those alternatives without having ever attended the Advanced Pistol Fighting course - inconceivable! ;)

Seriously, anyone who believes they will have to forcibly defend themselves at some point in their lives NEEDS to get training in hand-to-hand combatives, AND how to use knives and improvised "weapons of opportunity," AND how to shoot handguns effectively within arm's reach of an attacker...the original post is IMO just a rather un-subtle, ham-handed attempt at making that very point. If I had been the original poster, I'd have let the course advertising speak for itself, rather than beating the hornet's nest with a clue-bat - but that's just me...;)
 
It beats the "just ask 'em to stop" theory hands-down, and it's a better alternative for me than the "carry a cop" theory.

:)
If you think you are going to die from being shot, you are right. If you don't think you are going to die from being shot, you are more than likely right. People can live through a lot if they don't let the "Crap I'm dead" mindset take over.
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You're right to a point, but let's be honest here...it's a little more complicated than The Little Engine That Could.
 
There are people who will submit from a .25 to the leg, and others who will still be standing long after we think they should have fallen down.

A ex-LEO passed on this story to me of a fellow officer's incident. He and his partner put six .357 magnum shots center mass and TWO 12 gauge slugs center mass before the assailant dropped to his knees.

You never know. Do I like my odds of having a gun over using my bare hands in the same scenario? Yes. Do I consider training, marksmanship and preparation a fail-proof formula for success? Of course not. But do I like my chances better? Yes.

To illustrate: (I'm a big analogies guy)

A basketball player practices day in and day out. He practices multiple shots, shooting off the pass, shooting over defenders. He continually practices and enhances his technique. Does this make him a guarantee to hit the game winning shot with the game on the line? No. Do I like his odds better than a guy who has never picked up a basketball except in a couple of pick up games? Of course.
 
You're right to a point, but let's be honest here...it's a little more complicated than The Little Engine That Could.
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No, it is not more complicated. I know from personal experience that this is true.

There are 3 things that kill you from a gunshot:

-trauma to the central nervous system
-loss of blood or oxygen substancial enough to shut down major organs
-shock

Provided that you aren't bleeding out, unable to breath, or suffering from a third eye socket, you only die if you tell yourself that you will.
 
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I completely agree with "shooting until they drop". If someone is a threat enough to warrant me drawing my gun, I am going to shoot, starting at COM, and working up to head. If/when they fall over, I stop shooting.

I train this way at the range, Usually 3-5 shots... 2 or 3 in the chest, 1 or 2 in the head. Every time.

If I were to miss the head shots (which I know are hard to get on a moving target), then I would continue to aim COM until I was out of ammunition or he falls over.

And yes, if I run out of ammo, I will have to re-evaluate the situation, some situations warrant hand/hand combat, while others would warrant a hasty retreat.
 
You will react how you have trained to handle a situation whether or not you want to believe it—it is a proven fact and Grossman’s teachings back this up.
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What I was referring to was once your heart rate reaches 145 beats per minute your forebrain shuts down and your midbrain takes over. I should have clarified that a bit more. If you have trained extensively at something it will become second nature (“muscle memory”). If you don’t train, then you have nothing to revert to other than natural reactions. It all depends upon your level of conditioning but physically and mentally.

I do believe that Grossman said something on his CD's about stress inoculation and how people are responding better now than ever with force on force training and shooting at human silhouette targets. Shooting at non human targets is a big thing in my book. This is part of the conditioning process.

__________________________
Brian K. LaMaster
Innovative Tactical Concepts
Modern Warrior Talk
Your mind is the weapon. Your body is simply the delivery system for the tool you choose to implement into the fight.
Marksmanship is a hopeful skill, FIGHTING skills are a must!
"What you don't know won't hurt you - it will KILL you!" General Gerry Prather, USAF, XOK (1982)
 
According to Lt. Col Dave Grossman’s teachings, most people who are shot don’t know they are shot because the body shuts down all secondary senses such as pain.
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Okay, first of all I do know that Grossman teaches that the body shuts down secondary senses such as auditory, pain, etc. other than the primary sense that is needed at the time. Maybe this is a case-by-case basis, I don’t know and I took it as “all” because I can tell you that when I got into a fight at a younger age and lost two teeth that I didn’t feel or hear anything, the only thing that I remember having working as far as senses was vision.

As far as people who are shot not knowing they are shot, I was told this by people who attended a couple of his seminars. I did not say that I read or heard it directly. My fault for getting second hand information and posting it as his teachings. I trust these people, and if they say he said it, I believe that he said it. Just because it isn't in writing or you didn't hear it, doesn't mean that he didn't say it.

A common teaching in firearms training is that you will be able to get your gun out and use it and immediately stop the threat in their tracks.
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Strawman premise. This is not a common teaching.
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Really? I see this being taught and people we talk to that have been to the same schools you have been to and they seem to have this mindset as what I am talking about. What is common by the way? Does it mean every or all? No, it means common.

Even if you do land rounds (including multiple rounds) on the threat, do you really expect them to just fall down and die?
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We talk to hundreds of people a month and yes, this is a common belief amongst those who have had training and those who have not. Just because you don’t believe it, doesn’t mean that other don’t.

__________________________
Brian K. LaMaster
Innovative Tactical Concepts
Modern Warrior Talk
Your mind is the weapon. Your body is simply the delivery system for the tool you choose to implement into the fight.
Marksmanship is a hopeful skill, FIGHTING skills are a must!
"What you don't know won't hurt you - it will KILL you!" General Gerry Prather, USAF, XOK (1982)
 
Brian, good thought. You mean if I spend tons on money on the perfect gun, and hours of time pouring over ballistics before choosing the perfect round, that when shot my attacker will not burst into flames? I want my money back.

As it is with all things martial people are concerned with killing people eventually, no stopping the violent action immediately.

In our class in Miami over the weekend we did tons of force on force. After dozens of scenarios I believe we had two head shots using airsoft. During the live fire we had non....even with a target standing still.

The idea is to shoot and move, move and shoot. Not stand there and admire your handy work or the lack off. Great topic.
 
Yes they do, but as someone who put four rounds of OO buck into one person, I can tell you they do not burst into flames. As a matter of fact circulatory disruption did not stop the violence, the structural failure of having the gun blown out of his hands did. It still took him several minutes to expire.

Caliber and blade length is so substitute for mindset and training.
 
Okay, first of all I do know that Grossman teaches that the body shuts down secondary senses such as auditory, pain, etc. other than the primary sense that is needed at the time. Maybe this is a case-by-case basis, I don’t know and I took it as “all” because I can tell you that when I got into a fight at a younger age and lost two teeth that I didn’t feel or hear anything, the only thing that I remember having working as far as senses was vision.
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Okay, Grossman may claim it, but doesn't show the data to support that it happens most of the time, does he? It is based on anecdotal data.

Applying your tooth loss to Grossman's data isn't valid for making claims.

Really? I see this being taught and people we talk to that have been to the same schools you have been to and they seem to have this mindset as what I am talking about.
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So you are saying that Rangemaster, Thunder Ranch, Ken Hackathorn, etc. teach their students that they will be able to draw, shoot, and drop their opponents on the spot? Really?

That is bogus.

What is common by the way? Does it mean every or all? No, it means common.
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Ah, the old definition of a word by referencing itself? Common means common? M-kay.
 
Folks, this is too worthwhile a discussion to drive it off into the ditch. Please discuss the point of view without attacking or belittling the person who holds that point of view, m'kay?

lpl
 
I think the shoot them to the ground metality assumes that you'll have the opportunity to do so. Life being what it is you might not have the chance to get your gun out of the holster in the first place. Likewise, once the gun is out you might not be able to continue firing until the attacker goes down.

Taking any point in isolation does you no good. If you're in the clinch with someone, but manage to control & position so you can get your gun out & shoot then you need to get to work. If you got your gun out but the attacker was able to go hands on with you before (or after) you fired you need to deal with that before you worry about shooting some more. Getting a weapon in hand is not a solution for a poor position.

I think what goes unsaid in the shoot them to the ground concept is the additional "if possible." If you can get your gun out & put rounds on target & if you can continue to do so until they hit the ground & (more importantly) cease to be a threat then do so. If not, suck it up & do what you have to do to deal with the threat.
 
After being involved in real altercations, doing a lot of training and both the trainee and trainer I do not believe that during a shooting I am likely to be able to transition from body to head shots. However, when shooting a square range I can do it all day long.
 
Lee, I submit that while the post,
Dead men tell no lies
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might not be comfortable with some, it is something that I've heard a lot and has a lot of validity. It does seem it helps to not have the "she said, he said" thing going on after a shooting. It is disturbing to many of us how careful the society has gotten with criminals. Many of us don't really need to kill people, we just don't want unwanted people in our homes and threatening our lives.
 
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