Shooting a bear in self defense

[Beatnik]

The topic seems to come up on a fairly regular basis.

I was in Boy Scouts all the way through until my 18th birthday. I went to Philmont twice, which, for those who don't know, is a ranch in New Mexico where boys can go backpacking through the Rockies for 60-150 miles over 10 days. Going twice is almost unheard of, but I got lucky. I went when I was 15 and 17 years old.

A good scout troop will never have adults calling many of the shots. The whole idea of scouts is to have 17 year olds directing and encouraging boys as young as 13 (younger back home, but a 120 mile hike is a bit much for an 11 year old).

So when - not if, when - we encountered brown bears on the trail, it was up to 17-year-old kids to remember what they had been told so they could help get the even younger kids to do what they were told. When - not if, when - we were camping in areas where no single tree in the immediate area had any bark left for the first eight feet from getting clawed so often, it was up to kids to remember what goes in the bear bag, and make sure the even younger kids were putting their smellables in it so they could be suspended in a tree well outside of camp for the night.

And we all lived.

At no point was "pull out your 454 Casull Alaskan with 300 grain hard-cast wadcutters and start blasting" part of what we were told....

....so what gives? Before you start, please realize that I fully recognize your constitutionally protected right to force feed a lead salad to a pissed off bear, right up to the point where he crushes your ribcage with his mouth. But why isn't that stressed as the option of last resort?

We stress knowing how to avoid confrontation with criminals... why don't bears get the same courtesy?

 

[azredhawk44]

Not many sub-18 year old kids get handed a "454 Casull Alaskan with 300 grain hard-cast wadcutters."

This is a gun forum, not necessarily an outdoors survival or defense forum. As such, people talk about guns, not animal rights. What you see here is a portion of the entire debate any outdoorsman gun owner goes through when equiping himself for an outing in the Great Out There.

I've had 4 run-ins with bears and mountain lions. They are alive, and I am alive. I've only drawn my gun once, and I've never had to shoot anything out of defense. I carry a 44 mag Redhawk on most of my back-country adventures.

I'm sure the vast majority of outdoors stories are boring like mine, or we'd see a shortage of bear and cat tags at Game and Fish departments from all the Casull's and other supermagnums running around in the woods.

 

[doc2rn]

I almost got eatin' by a bear when I was in the Rockies at age 8. Fortunately for me dad had a .44 Mag, you never did see a bear beat feet faster. The week after two people where seriously gnawed on by the same bear. What caliber for bear? My reply is no less than .44 Mag.

 

[Mr White]

Just remember, you don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun the 13 year olds.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I mean no disrespect, but your use of the term, "brown bear" made me pause. I have no doubt you may have encountered black bears in New Mexico, as they have a very large range across most of the US, but a brown bear? Are you sure? I did not think that brown bears currently inhabit any parts of the continental US besides pockets of Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, and Washington. So I looked it up. Please, by all means correct me if I am wrong. Here is an excerpt from an article off of the New Mexico Wilderness Alliance website:

"Historically, the Mexican grizzly was slightly smaller in stature than the Yellowstone or Alaskan brown bear. It once roamed in the Gila country and large parts of New Mexico until it was extirpated around 1921. Although the Mexican grizzly is considered to be extinct, some still hold out hope. But, realistically any reintroduction of grizzlies in New Mexico would require bears from Yellowstone National Park. Such action seems unlikely with the current Administration."

Anyway, I agree that most bear encounters in the wild can be and are handled without human or animal injury. I think most of the "which caliber for bear attack" threads on THR are based around scenarios of hiking or fishing in Alaska and coming across an angry charging sow with cubs. Here in Oregon, I worry more about meth addicts and pot growers when out in the woods than I do about black bear encounters. That does not stop me from taking along a .357 just in case a chance bear encounter can't be ended peacefully.

 

[3fgburner]

I did the Philmont trip in 1974, the summer between high school graduation and starting college. I was the crew chief, being the Old Man at almost 18.

Our next-to-last night out (final night was on Tooth Ridge) was at Clark's Fork. In those days, it was the worst camp at Philmont for bear problems. Bear bags all went into the staff cabin for the night. Forget hanging one, the bears would take it out of the tree.

Anyway, at the campfire, we were warned again about bear bags, because one of the crews had just gotten their packs mauled. We got back to camp after the campfire singalong, and lo and behold, it was one of my troopies. He'd left a bunch of candy and food in his pack. I took the pack, and another bear bag of suddenly-remembered stuff, down to the staff cabin.

My deputy crew chief and I decided to be macho, and use our sheath knives and hiking sticks to make bear spears. Went to bed with 'em beside our sleeping bags. Woke up later, and heard a bear playing handball with our packs. We disassembled the spears, having had a sudden attack of common sense. Back to sleep, then.

I woke up around 0300, with something like a toothed vise clamped on my @$$. Yep. Something appetizing apparently dripped out of the pack and stuck on me. I woke up, yelled, and the bear decided that "human, live, one each" probably =\= "edible". It left. Fortunately, biting through sleeping bag, and clothing, prevented it breaking skin. I did get a bunch of demands to see the teeth-marks for a couple of days, though.

 

[Beatnik]

What you see here is a portion of the entire debate any outdoorsman gun owner goes through when equiping himself for an outing in the Great Out There.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is 1) it's never that clear if this is a portion of the debate vs. the entire debate, 2) the vast majority of criminal encounters are similarly boring, or else none of us would know who Jeanne Assam is, therefore 3) there's a discrepancy between how we assume we're going to avoid and respond to criminals vs. bears.

 

[Wheeler44]

There is a BIG difference between hiking with a large group of people in the SouthWest and hiking, fishing, camping solo or in very small groups in the Yellowstone area or the bush of Alaska.

I have sat out many a bear "encounter" on a stump with an old .303 in my lap. However, my brother was charged by a proven "man eater" and had to "dispatch" him to the great berry field in the sky.

 

[M1911]

I mean no disrespect, but your use of the term, "brown bear" made me pause.

I had the same reaction.

Most of us who carry in the suburbs will never have to use our firearm against a 2-legged varmint. But we carry just the same. We to go to training classes, practice, compete, and argue about tactics. We are prepared, just in case.

The same is true for bear defense. 999 out of 1000 bear encounters will result in the bear going one way and the person going the other. But it would really suck to have that 1 out of 1000 bear encounters and have nothing other than your fists.

 

[Beatnik]

I mean no disrespect, but your use of the term, "brown bear" made me pause.

They are "brown colored bears", and the one we ran into was at least 6 feet long. But you're right, apparently they are some kind of discolored black bears.

edit: http://www.bison-m.org/booklet.aspx?id=050105

You can hopefully see where my confusion came from.

 

[The Tourist]

This is a gun forum, not necessarily an outdoors survival or defense forum.

You are absolutely correct. But by definition, we also seek knowledge on a high road. That's why this is an important forum and valuable frame of mind.

No question about it, I can tech you how to sharpen a shiv and attack with an edged weapon in the best of jailhouse tactics. There are many here who could do that same service in teaching pistols and rifles. We have numerous MA experts here, as well.

However, as part of our higher expectations, we must also teach a "no shoot" morality. In that light I have seen countless threads here on "backing out of a fight" rather than simply go toe to toe with an aggressor.

The OP touches on a very important point, that being training. If an unschooled individual goes into bear territory, is sloppy with food, does not have an exit strategy and winds up blasting a bear "in self defense," whose fault is that really? The bear's?

What would your response be if I sent a pristine Japanese laminate to a client and he started hanging out in honky-tonk bars and back alleys looking for a fight with his superior weapon? Most of us would sternly admonish the guy as a foolish newb.

 

[MT GUNNY]

As a side note The chance of being attacked by a bear when with a party of more than 3or 4 is highly unlikely According to the "Bear Attack" book I read awhile back

 

[OFT]

Buy lottery tickets. You have a much better chance of winning the lottery than being attacked by a bear. Also, winning the lottery would be much more enjoyable.

 

[MakAttak]

Buy lottery tickets. You have a much better chance of winning the lottery than being attacked by a bear. Also, winning the lottery would be much more enjoyable.

I would say I have a MUCH higher chance of getting attacked by a bear than winning the lottery.

I actually spend time outside.

I don't choose to participate in the tax on stupidity.

 

[CNYCacher]

But why isn't that stressed as the option of last resort?

Isn't it implied that this is the last resort?

I never heard anybody advocating shooting bears on sight.

 

[OFT]

MakAttak, how many people were attacked in the U.S. last year by bears and how many won a lottery?

 

[Wheeler44]

Makattak said that he doesn't buy lottery tickets.....his chance of winning is slight.

 

[mister2]

If the objective of this thread is to promote good hiking practice/predator avoidance (specifically: bear), then that's all fine, but the title doesn't fit.

"....in self-defense" conjures up higher levels of threat and is miles past "avoidance" in reference to criminals in OP. The title implies that the Garmin coordinates of the bear mouth and my ribcage are about to merge.

Funny how logic works. Substitute "man" for "bear" in the title, and anyone (including, but not limited to: judges) will agree with a simple, reduced, operative statement: "I felt my life was threatened, I neutralized the threat." Now, re-insert "bear" and everything's clear.

 

[El Tejon]

Carried one fat Scoutmaster off the Tooth of Time, carried another down off Mount Baldy (after the bloated toad told me that my sweatpants would be too heavy and I should not pack them--I have never been so cold as Mount Baldy at 3:30AM). I don't have fond memories of Philmont.

Beatnik, it's escapism, part of the Peter Pan Complex rampant on the 'net. Guys will spend hours babbling about bears, but very few hours shooting bear loads.

BTW, never saw one bloody bear at Philmont both times I was there. My friend John went back as a ranger, not a single bear.

It was at Philmont that I realized that bears are ghost stories invented by bored, underemployed Westerners in altered states.

 

[geim druth]

I hiked Philmont in 2006.
A brown bear strolled by our camp at Upper Dean, but left us completely alone. We returned the favor.

It was bigger than an Eastern black bear but not nearly as big as a grizzly. I was told that Wade Philips shot the last grizzly in New Mexico back in the 1920's.

The ranch's bear policy is not geared toward encounters with aggressive animals on the open trail, but toward
bears foraging in the campsites. The most common attacks are similar to what happened to 3fgburner, and what the Scouts want to avoid is a night-time encounter in a crowded campsite between armed scouts and a hungry bear.


I was also told that a prominent neighbor of the Philmont Ranch wants to reintroduce grizzly bears on his property. To tell the truth, if that happens I would feel better if I was armed on the trail.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

MakAttak, how many people were attacked in the U.S. last year by bears and how many won a lottery?

LOL, it almost works like that.

 

[22-rimfire]

Hunting should take care of the problem of bears that have little fear of humans.

Frank Minter (American Hunter Magazine) wrote of book titled, "the Politically Incorrect Guide to Hunting". It is not a bad read. Check it out. He discusses the increase in bear encounters (human vs bear) and discusses management solutions. The frequency of threads on "which gun to protect against bears" here certainly indicates an interest although for the majority of us, it is a fantasy thread.

He mentions a few statistics that are interesting that apply to hikers in National Parks in general relative to bear encounters.

The book is primarily geared toward combatting the anti-hunting groups and educating.

 

[Big Boomer]

And we all lived.

At no point was "pull out your 454 Casull Alaskan with 300 grain hard-cast wadcutters and start blasting" part of what we were told....

I have had the same experience while traveling in Chicago for business for the past 5 years! Because of the wonderful laws of the state I couldn't even think of carrying.

So great situational awareness is wonderful, knowing how to avoid confrontation is great. But what happens when all that fails and a BIG hungry bear decides to have a 13 year old kid for a snack. Or yourself for that matter.

So what's plan B? I bet it's retreat! Oh did you know bears can run really freakin fast? Climb a tree? Oh they are exceptional climbers too

Throw the old candy bar or ham sandwich over your shoulder while booking it down the trail? Moving food excites predators

I've been chased by a bear, only a little small black one about 250-300# this was when I was about 13 working in a field changing irrigation pipe someone had cleaned a poached deer on the road that drew him near. He was walking down the road and turned into the field about 200 yards away, I started walking the other direction.

Long story short here is I started to run and he quickly changed his speed to full out charge. Luckily I only had to make it about 20 yards to the fence he managed to get within about 15 yards of me by the time I made it to the fence.

If I had to run another 5-10 yards I am sure I would have gotten a bear hug. I had no plan B. Because I was not even prepared for plan A.

I think

pull out your 454 Casull Alaskan with 300 grain hard-cast wadcutters and start blasting

is a great plan B!

 

[jwalk]

As to the "how many people are actually attacked by bears each year" question, I can remember At least three last year by actual grizzly bears. One man was mauled by a griz in eastern Idaho about 100 yards from his home, one University of Montana football player was bitten while hunting in Montana, and another hunting party shot and killed one in the same area. If my memory is right there were like 6 or 7 grizzly attacks in the Idaho, Montana, Wyoming area last year I don't have the exact stats on that. On another thread a guy in Eastern Oregon shot and killed a charging black bear with his 1911 the other day. I don't go up in the mountains anymore (Wyoming) without my 454 or a twelve guage with slugs. I am a former scout too who spent at least one sleepless night after seeing a bear around our camp area in the Idaho backcountry.

 

[jwalk]

I just remember this one too. Wasn't it just last year when a scout was killed by a black bear in Utah? It seems just about every year someone is attacked in the Uintas or in Central Utah, a lot of them being scouts. It's not really the bears that scare me it's the moose. I've ran into much more of them in the wilderness than bears. Something about a 1000 lb critter that doesn't mind stomping your guts out doesn't sit right with me.