Shooting from Bench, cheating/unskilled??

[twoblink]

<flame suit on as a precaution>

As a libertarian, I could care less what you do, want to shoot from bench?? Fine! Shoot all you want, I will never stop you!!

BUT... I recall one time, this guy had a vice grip, sandbags, etc... the works, and he is shooting from bench, (Browning A-bolt 308 + a 24x scope Leupold I think) and I was shooting next to him, (Iron Sights, M1A National Match).. At linebreak, I walked out, and got my target, and he "laughed" and said that his group was a bit tighter than mine.. I was grouping maybe 2.5" @ 100 yards, his was a little smaller, a little less than 2". I was going to tell him, why don't you PICK UP the rifle and shoulder it standing, and see how well you do then!!

I'm a bit bothered by the fact that people who all this "bench" gear seem to be comparing themselves to standing shots;

I know most who are great bench shooters, when standing, can't hit the side of a barn.. I don't shoot from bench anymore; because I think it's not realistic to keep lying to myself that I'm a great shot when I have a vice grip holding my rifle, when I know if I actually had to shoot on the run or in a standing position, I shoot like Sarah Brady.

It's another reason I only shoot iron sights now...

Ok, I'm done... <rant off>
(gonna keep the flame suit on though!!)

 

[Jack19]

I was taught that the bench was a good place to zero your rifle, but after that one actually bent at the waist and made contact with the ground....in various positions that were actually to be used in the field.

My bench gear consists of a 50 cal ammo can and an old folded, U.S Navy issue, wool blanket. And no sissy wind and temp meters either. (pulling on Nomex)

 

[ojibweindian]

I totally agree!

A bench is used only to dial in my rifles. After that, it's serious practice with "traditional" shooting positions.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I personally prefer to shoot from a davenport, while a comely, scantily clad lass feeds me peeled grapes between shots, and another holds a screen over me. Of course, there will be other scantily clad lasses to run the targets, reload my rifle, wipe the sweat off my brow, and spot the shots...

Don't sweat the small stuff.

You start doing that while you're at the range, and your groups are going to start going to hell.

 

[Gewehr98]

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish...

Shooting prairie dogs way out there at 400 yards?

A rest of some kind for the day is preferable.

Same for the guys in the benchrest accuracy game.

Battle rifle against a real or imaginary foe?

I sure's hell am not going to just stand up in the open and shoot.

Prone, or barricade behind available cover.

Thumping Bambi or Porky? Sure, standing is just fine. I still like the nearby tree branch rest if available. And if you're sitting in a tree stand...

Dialing in a new scope, or testing out a new handload for accuracy or velocity through the chronograph? Put it on the bags, or put another chronograph on the credit card.

 

[Meanoldfart]

A practical Test

If you want to find out how good you or your buddys are in practical shooting and have a limited range, this is a good match.
Set up a 6" target at 100yds.,
Start 20 ft. back from the line with your rifle slung.
Walk to the line and load 5 rounds.
You are going to fire a total of 15 rounds, but you must reload between positions. You fire 5 rounds in each position. You can use 3 mags. with 5 rounds each or stripper clips or you may have to load singles. If you have to load singles, you get an extra 30 secs. on the time.
Positions are standing, sitting or kneeling{you choose} and prone. You may shoot the three positions in whatever order you choose.
Any rifle and any sights.
Time limit is 5 minutes.
Just count the hits in the black, 12 or more and you are pretty damn good. If you hit all 15 the first time, draw in a 4in. X ring and count them.
This is fast, easy, fun and gives you a realistic benchmark to work from.

 

[Soap]

The bench is good for testing a rifle. All other positions are good for testing yourself.

 

[twoblink]

My instructor had us at 25 yards, and told us to group about 1", then go bug him... It took me two hours before my groups got that good..

I have found, my "Rice Patty Squat" is the most accurate, about as accurate as my prone.. One of the things I found out too, I prefer the 10-round mags on my M1A to the 20 rounds (not that I can own them in the PRK ) but for prone reasons, I think the 10 rounds are better..

I can't shoot lick with a one-knee position, it's worse then my standing position.

Rice-Patty, Prone, Standing, One knee...

 

[MJRW]

That was you I saw at the range in the smoking jacket puffing on a pipe, Mike? Next time though, try keeping the target close enough so that we don't lose sight of the running women at any point, k?

Another fine point of bench shooting: when you just feel like it.

 

[10-Ring]

twoblink - this is a pet peeve of mine as well. :banghead: Bottom line, your guns, your ammo, your false sense of security & efficiency

 

[762x51]

I shoot my precision bolt gun from the bench. I shoot my AK and pretty much everything else standing. Have you tried shooting a scoped 12 pound bolt gun for groups while standing?

My pet peeve is more people who shoot fairly accurate high powered rifles at close distances. "Dude....I can get .75 inch 3 shot groups from my AR10T at 25 yards"

 

[BHP9]

Two Blink there is a lot of truth in what you say.

I once saw a 6 year old kid who never fired a weapon before in his life after a few minutes of instruction fire 1/4 inch groups out of a heavy barrel rifle off of sand bags.

What is the moral of the story. Well there are many shooters out there and few real riflemen.

I personally became so bored shooting off of sandbags I had to find something else or God forbid become a pistol shooter only.

When I started 3 postion competition in rifle shooting and skeet shooting in shotguns shooting it opened up a whole new interesting world for me and made me a deadly rifle shot when hunting. Even animals like deer on the run were not impossible to take. Most of my fiends who where mostly once a year hunters that sighted in off of sand bags basically had to shoot from a rest and limit their shots to 25 to 75 yards. Most never even attempted to hit a deer on the run.

Even a deer hunt can cost you a lot of money and time and when the moment of truth arrives if you are not a rifleman but only a sand bag shooter you do not stand as good a chance of taking that dream trophy as you are when you are a real rifleman.

Many people of course do not have the time to become rifleman or the money or time to go hunting. Many are very out of shape physically and cannot shoot a weapon unless it is off of sandbags. Few people realize how good a physical shape you must be in for shooting rifles in the various offhand positions. I think this is why many people pressed for time and out of shape can only shoot from sandbags.

Most people think that buying the latest high tech gaget is "the answer" to all their shooting problems and that if you spend more money on better equipment this enables you to become a superior shot.

Truth is the man who shoots often in the offhand positions with the old worn out beat up obsolete rifle will easily outshoot the superior equipment sand bag crowd in many competitions or hunting fields. Not that good equipment is not a plus but the ability to use it must go hand in hand with the equipment.

Sandbag shooting is basically a technology race for shooters. Offhand shooting in the various positions is a game of skilled riflemen requiring all the training and skill of an olympic athlete Something that the anti-gunners will never admit until they actually find out how much skill and physical stamina it actually takes to become a first class High Master Rifleman.

A ground hog on a rifle range in front of a bunch of sand bag shooters could probably survive most of an afternoon without even comming close to being hit even at 100 yards. The same ground hog running at 200 yards flat out for the woods would never make it if he was under the sights of a rifleman. I am not joking because I actually saw this happen.

 

[Crimper-D]

I shoot benchrest as well as ...

Other forms of shooting entertainments
Ever see a smallbore benchrest target???
The X ring on a USBR target is smaller than this "o"- the whole scoring ring is 2" in diameter there are 25 scoring rings per target
Range is usually 25 or 50yds Try it and report back
While we are at it, anyone ever hear of Running Deer or Running Boar matches? My club has a Running Deer match following the monthly Centerfire Rifle matches... Ever see a whole line of competition rifle shooters losing $ trying to hit a lifesize Bambi target mounted on a rail and bouncing along a 50yd track with a cam drive? = Offhand at 100yds - no sling.
Moving targets are a Bitch
I shoot for fun and occasionally to keep my instincts honed... any form of shooting with any type of firearm helps me accomplish this.

 

[Edward429451]

I sandbag bench my new loads and new guns to see what they're capable of. After that the bench is just for holding my gear and spot on the range.

It's another reason I only shoot iron sights now...

Me too. No handicap scope for me. (this is what I tell myself cause I cant afford a scope.) My BIL was getting about 1 1/2" groups from the bench with his scoped 700, I was getting 2 3/4" to 3" groups from my irons with field positions and he wouldn't understand that I was doing better.

 

[M1911]

Mike Irwin: I want to shoot where ever you are shooting. Don't think I'd want to invite the missus, though

 

[blades67]

I use the bench and a couple of sandbags sometimes. I don't think it's "cheating" to do so.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Sights?!

Who needs sights??

That's cheating!

 

[Gewehr98]

Boy, that sounds a lot like Fred...

What is the moral of the story. Well there are many shooters out there and few real riflemen.

As in Fred of the "You gonna be a rifleman or cook when the UN Blue Helmets come marching down the road to your house" Shotgun News persuasion.

Hey, they don't have a tinfoil helmet smiley yet, do they?

 

[Smoke]

I kinda have to agree with all the other posts....so far.

I think the issue here is the moron at the range that is comparing his benched shots to those of someone standing. Apples to apples if you please.

 

[Soap]

One important distinction should be made here: That people who shoot from the bench are not necessarily "benchrest" shooters. The benchrest folks provide an invaluable service to shooters and the industry: they are essentially conducting R&D for new technologies every time they shoot. Good deal.

 

[jacks308]

Alas , I have become weak....

for now when I sight in a military type rifle I normally do it prone at 82 feet . If group size is consistant I make the changes and go further back .

Fred MADE me do it !!!!!



Jack

 

[Skullboy]

I think a lot depends on what type of shooting you are doing.I shoot off the bench with rests when I'm checking my sight in, and when load testing.When I compete in F-Class/Precision Class, we shoot prone off of a bipod.Sure it is nice to be able to shoot offhand and get good groups, But when it comes to precision/sniper competitions and hunting, a good rifleman will always take some sort of a rest(be it kneeling, over a tree branch, etc).In our matches, 1 MOA won't cut it.

That being said,the true riflemen should be able to shoot from ALL positions.

SKBY.

 

[M67]

Mike Irwin: Do the range provide the wimmin or do you have to bring your own?

In case you're interested in how other people do things:
I don't compete as much as I should, but when I do the full course of fire for a Norwegian rifle shooter is as follows:
5 rounds prone, in 90 seconds.
5 rounds standing in 3 minutes.
5 rounds kneeling in 2 minutes.
10 rounds (three standing, three kneeling, four prone) in 3 minutes including change of position and reloading.
10 rounds prone in 75 seconds.
Bolt action (or G3, but only five rounds per magazine), iron sights, 300 meters, 15 cm 10-ring. (That's ~six inches at ~330 yards )
If I want to improve my results, I have to practice my shooting skills, not getting hemorrhoids from a cold bench.

 

[St. Gunner]

Ahhhhm, I feel at home here....

I have a range at the house, 375yds, have a bench set at the 300yd mark and have berms at 100-200-and the big one at 300yds. But I have 75yds behind the bench I shoot from the prone to the big berm. Off of the bipod most of the time, sometimes over some sandbags I made with only a little sand and some of the styrofoam pellets(can carry them to the field real easy). The other day I went to site in a .22/250 for my father-in-law, cleaned it all up and sat down at the bench. Plunked 5 shots into about a quarter size group out of a 1967 Remington rifle with a 6x weaver with the post. Switched to my 300yd berm and some human size silos I have cut from 1" plate. It was spelled B_O_R_I_N_G. Stick the post on the top of the head, a kiss of left windage and whack, right on what would be the bridge of the nose. Went to the prone, no sling to wrap in, landed them in the head, but not exactly on what would be the spinal column.

My standard stess relief is the 8mm Turk mauser at 300yds with open sites on the steels. From offhand I shoot center mass, from sitting the same, from prone the head. I won't tell you I shoot perfect, but I have gotten to where I can tell you where the shot lands from the way I felt when the trigger breaks.

I have a custom mauser with a shilen barrel that is capable of outshooting me. I use it to scramble eggs at various ranges. The close ones get set down end on, the others set with the tall side to me. These get shot from the prone.

I've started doing all of the shooting in the field I can from the prone with a bipod. 6-9" swivel harris. We do some long range shooting at hogs at times and it is the best way to connect. Now the close stuff is the fun stuff, and it is almost always standing and moving. I got a triple last spring as some hogs busted out of some brush when the dogs bayed another hog. all shots at about 120yds all running, one headshot, two shoulder shot on about 100lb pigs. I didn't make those shots because of sitting and practicing on a bench.

Now I do use the bench alot when I want to try some 300yd handgun shots with the 4" barreled taurus .357. I lost a shooting partner that way, connected more than he did with his mini-14.

 

[hksw]

In IR 50/50, the 10 ring is 0.25". The X is a 1/32" dot. 1 shot per target, 25 targets, 30 minutes.

A little difficult to get a good score off hand.