Shooting from Bench, cheating/unskilled??

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I really do not care how or why someone shoots either from a bench or standing on their head but the ONLY time I ever use a bench is when I first put a scope on a new rifle and thats only once every couple of years and I suck at shooting off a bench just ask steve smith. now I spend a few minutes every month down at the range and 99% of the folks I see are shooting off a bench with a rifle and I do not care.

LABGRADE: we are both in colorado and you are welcome to come and shoot with us anytime you would like as there are a few highpower matches up in your area of the woods, a nice match every month till nov. in boulder and one in ault also.
ault is a little ways for me to go but I try to make the boulder match every month.
we do not shoot off of benches or bags but laying on a matt or on the ground with just you and a sling for support and we also do it in rapid prone stages and rapid sitting stages and even off hand with out any support or sling.
its fun and when I am working on loads I do it from the positions like prone on the ground as when I pull the trigger I know where it goes.
also we only use open sights and I use a ar15 also. those matches are only 200 yards but when the weather gets a little better its off the bailey or byers for matches out to 600 yards and then we always have camp perry every year also.

now I only shot 198-9x on the slow prone target last week at 200 yards in a match and finished 3rd as the two guys next to me shot a perfect 200 and all three of us were using ar15's with open sights laying on a matt on the ground in the cold and wind.
8 of the 9 x's I shot were with in the size of a quarter with a 20" ar15.
oh and I think I might have a ideal of why I do not use a bench for my loads and practice because it would not of let me win the colorado state prone championship at ault last sept. as I did with the same ar15. I was the first one to win it with a ar15 against all the match rifles that were there. it was 40 rounds of slow prone on the slow prone target and 40 rounds of rapid prone on the rapid prone target. my score and I made a few bad shots but still had a 786-28x for the day out of a possible 800.

I also do not think the two elk I dropped 20 yards apart back in oct. cared if I was shooting from a bench or not.

let folks shoot what they want as it does not matter but please do not tell me that in order to be good I have to check my loads from a bench or practice that way and if you do not believe me come on out and watch and I will even loan you a rifle and the ammo to try it your self at a match.
jon in colorado springs.
 
Well, Jon, 198-9x is good, but I plan on cleaning it this year, so look out! :D

You guys know I don't use a rest, and honestly, I do find them a bit silly for regular rage visits...but to each his own. BR definitely definitely serves as a good lab for the shooting sports as a whole...those guys have learned a lot about ammo over the years.
 
Okay twoblink, just how the heck is it cheating for someone to use a bench where there is no competition going on with rules that proclaim using the bench is a no-no?

I also don't understand your suggestion that the person was unskilled. So they are unskilled because you don't shoot that way?

Aside from zeroing sights, there are some good reasons to shoot from the bench when you can. Most people who are trying to shoot precisely will use some form of rest/bench if it is available. Snipers commonly used bipods and the the bipod isn't cheating and they sure aren't unskilled. They are simply taking advantage of the capabilities of the equipment.

I think labgrade is correct in that properly sighting/zeroing a gun such as a rifle is going to require benching the gun. That allows the fullest potential of the firearm to be attained under ideal circumstances. If you then shoot without the bench, any problems in accuracy are not going to be because of an improperly sighted gun. For most folks, if they try to get the gun zeroed without the bench, they probably are not going to be able to get the sights as well zeroed than if they had used the bench.

I have seen folks sighting in a gun without benching it and in one case, the guy was zeroing his gun, but he wasnt' actually zeroing his gun as much as zeroing his gun to compensate for a flinch/jerk that I am guessing he did not know he had. He had troubling grouping because his flinch/jerk was not consistently the same amount.
 
when folks make statements they should say for the masses but as I pointed out and a few people here know me personally that there are exceptions to the rule.
IF a person knows how to shoot from a position like prone on the ground and only using a support of the sling and your arm and know what they are doing they can do it.
I can and I know alot of others that can adjust point of impact by 1/4" at 100 yards and 1/2" at 200 yards with open sights and not off a bench so you see not everyone needs a bench.

but again I say I do not care if someone likes to shoot off a bench or standing on their head if thats what they like to do.
now another member here helped me put a scope on my 30-06 hunting rifle and sight it in off a bench but now that its set it will never see a bench again so there are exceptions that way to, and to tell the truth I really think the only reason I sighted it in off a bench was because everybody else does it that way.

let me give you a example of proper prone position:
when I hit the ground in rapid , no we will make it just slow prone when I get into position and my rifle is slinged up and I get behind the sights and set my npa and sight picture I do it without ever once touching the hand grip once I put the rifle into my shoulder as it is setting palm flat on the matt and only supported by the sling and bone structure in my left arm and the stock into the shoulder. when my npa and breathing is set I will bring my trigger finger and shooting hand to the grip and trigger without putting any pressure on the rifle or pistol grip to get the perfect straight back trigger pull. ( I just slightly grasp the grip)
then I will start to take the first stage out of the trigger and then close my eyes for about 4 seconds and open them take up any slack thats left concentrait on front sight blade and ever so slowly take the last 1# off the trigger and bang there it goes. no jerk and you can call the shot as you know where it went.
there are a hundred tricks to getting to know whats right and what helps and when something is not right but you do not learn that overnight.

now as far as hunting how many of you set up a target at 200 yards everyday (when its not raining or snowing) when you are out in hunting camp and dryfire off hand and sitting for a hour each day instead of reading or sleeping or drinking.
and guess what when my game comes across my path its automatic as I do not even think about pulling the trigger as I just put the sights or crosshairs where I want and the shot is already off and the follow up is soon ready to go.

but its like any sport if you train like you want to shoot then you need to practice what you will be doing if its on a bench or on the ground.
 
I have shot lots of palma and 1,000 yard matches back in the 1980's and like it but just got back into highpower competition in late 2001 and with my 48 going on 49 year old eyes I thought I would give these new fangled black ar15 things a couple of years of serious devotion and see how far I can go untill I start to back slide on the open post ar15 sights.
hey you hear the funny part I am left eye dominate and use my right eye to shoot the ar 15 right handed.
I am going to give it one more year and switch eyes and even thinking about messing with my friends at matches by shooting half my off hand shots right handed and then the other half left handed. ought to be good for a few laugh's anyway.

believe it or not I was in gunsmithing inc. today looking at don't laugh small bore rifles and was talking about some palma actions.
maybe christmas I will treat myself to a tubb 2000 for long range or a nice palma rifle by stolle- panda or one of the new one's by sinclair.

did you know that palma rifles took the first spot at perry in 2002 and had a great showing overall in the long range.and the winner belongs and shoots at my club. anyway the 2004 united states palma team and coaches has already been selected so if I start next year I will have two years of long range down again before the 2008 tryouts in 2006. should be fun as I will be retired by then and can devote more time to palma and long range. palma rules!!!!
 
jc 121, sounds great!

But, shooting rules. Any kind, any old how. Worrying about how somebody does what they like is sorta like making a career of picking flyspecks* outta pepper.

:), Art

* Just keeping Grammaw happy.
 
FWIW, just as Jon, I don't use a bench unless I'm sighting in a scope for the first time. I trust my prone position enough that I can sight in and test ammo better from there than I can from the bench these days. Never could figure out how to shoot from behind a desk anyways.

Jon, go ahead and switch to Palma...one less guy in my way of me going distinguished! :p


You really don't want to hang around that snobby bunch do you?
 
art you are right as I say it does not mater and should not mater what way someone shoots as long as they are having fun and being safe.

steve, you guys are stuck with me for this year anyway and I was shooting with 4 guys sat. that have the same thoughts about me, ron p.,mike w., bill d. and john s. so between rose and you and me and them it is going to be crowded up there looking for those leg points.
gotta get some more loading down today and tommorrow to keep you from laughing at me.

oh and dang you art I like pepper and now that thought will be crossing my mind all the time when I shake. can I hand wash pepper corns and then grind them to keep them clean? LOL
 
Hey Jon, I'll have that Dillon bench together in the next week if you don't mind giving me a hand with it. Then I won't have to laugh at you ever again.


BTW, I'm pretty disappointed that you haven't put that bench together for me while I've been gone. What a room mate you are! :rolleyes: :D
 
JohnBT, D.N.S,

Like I stated, I don't have a problem with bench shooting; I have a problem when someone who does 100% bench shooting thinks it's the same as shooting from stance. Part of the difficulty of stance is that you have to hold your rifle steady; not the sandbags holding your rifle steady, YOU. That's what makes it hard. Bench shooting is not a piece of cake, but it's not the same as having to hold up my 12lb M1A in a shouldered position.

Me shooting from stance, iron sights, is drastically different then a Leupold 24x scope, a bench with a vice grip etc.. It just irritates me when I see people comparing groups from bench shooting vs. stance.
 
Funny I thought about this the other day. I stopped using a bench awhile back.

I find my self kneeling allot these days with my open sites. And with scoped hunting rifles I shoot standing or kneeling.

I just use the benches for gear and loading these days.

I did use a bench for shooting my 10/22 and range bag for rest. Last week.

Love that rifle!
 
Get off the bench!

I'm very much in favor of off hand shooting. If you can master it, the other positions seem easy. I also do a fair amount of shooting from a kneeling position.

That said, you DO NEED a good rest in order to test loads, sight in, and so on. Once that's done, it's time to get up and start shooting for real.

The problem is, many rifle shooters NEVER GET UP! I see so many shooters do ALL their shooting from the bench. It's the same disease that leads us to spend all our time on the sofa and get super-size meals at McD's ;-)
 
When I go to the range I go for fun. If you don't like what I'm doing - don't tell me. I don't care what you think. By the way if you don't like my car or my wife I don't want to hear about this either.
 
Bullet, nobody cares how you have fun; that's strictly up to you. The overall point of all this discussion is that those who think shooting from a benchrest is all that is needed in order to be a successful critter-shooter are fooling themselves.

:), Art
 
Sorry Art, I sense a little more than that going on in this thread. There’s a whole negative under current of…â€my way of shooting is better,…harder, more challenging, …more worthwhile, etc.â€â€¦you fill in the blank. And, those shooting from the bench are… “kidding themselves, …engaging in something that is just too easy to be worthwhile, …not a challenge…etc, you fill in the blank. Not to mention the numerous posts telling us how great a shots they are. (of course they would never use a bench, that would be too easy). While I agree with your premise that people should practice the way they are going to hunt, there are many more reasons to shoot from the bench than hunting, none of which involve a lack of skill or challenge. Often people have preconceived ideas about the way things are. It has been my experience that once you get deeply involved in most anything you find out there was a lot more to it than you previously thought. A little more open mindedness to fellow shooters would go a long way, otherwise maybe this should be called the “Hig Power Boardâ€.
 
Pooch and Bullet, its a shame that you feel like you're being picked on here, as its simply not the case at all. The poster Bogie is known to be a real Benchrest enthusiast, and he and I have had some good-natured arguments, but thats it...GOOD NATURED. I don't think any experienced position shooter would argue that his method will get the most from the gun/ammo combo like Benchrest does, but in the same breath, no BR guy worth his salt would tell you that his method tests his practical shooting ability.

FWIW, those of us who shot from position do so so much that whatever bench skills we had have atrophied to some degree. I never could get my bags where I wanted them, and was always fussing with the awkward bench position (awkward to me, anyway). This has nothing to do with it being "too easy" its just unfamiliar. I hope that explains some things.

As far as this being the "High Power Board," that's rediculous. ALL methods of rifle shooting affect the others. We all learn from each other, and we're better for it. As I said before, BR has developed some of the biggest improvements in handloading methods. Their unending search for perfection has given the rest of us ways to make the target bigger for ourselves.

I do think that position shooters have more pride about their method than other shooters, and you'll be hard pressed to get any of us to stop feeling that way. Perhaps you should try it for yourself, or just don't read the threads that you don't like. Frankly, after reading through the thread a few times, the only "feelings" that were hurt were those of the bench shooters that didn't like others comments. Try not to get your emotions involved with he discussion. Just read the points and make an evaluation based on the merit of the argument.

:) Steve
 
Aw, ya get down to the nitty-gritty, I think the title of this thread coulda been worded differently...

Heck, I'll get on a kick on working up a really tight-shooting package, and tweak around with small variations in powder charge, different brands of bullets and that sort of stuff: Gotta use a bench rest to test them all. I see no other way. I'm luckier than most in that I have a bench rest built onto my front porch.

But I'll shoot at small rocks and tin cans, offhand, just for practice for when I go hunting. When I do get out looking for critters, though, I'll try for some sort of hasty rest in order to raise my odds on a clean hit.

And then there those times when I'll sit at the bench rest and plink for the fun of it. Other times, I do it because my danged back hurts!

So if a guy has a reason for what he's doing and a reason why he's doing it the way he is, seems to me it's his business and not mine.

:D, Art
 
The topic of this thread - Shooting from the bench cheating/unskilled??. Bench shooters comparing themselves to standing shooters bothered Twoblink. I was replying to this. Shooting is my hobby. I've been shooting since I was 4. That's been about 45 years ago. I like to shoot a lot of different ways. I don't like for people to believe that if your not doing what they are your no good. Over the years I have heard this from just about every kind of shooter. I have fun with my hobby (shooting & loading). I don't find fault with other shooters - bench or off hand. You can learn different things from both. Both have different values to different people. I just wish shooters sometimes would be more shooter friendly and not so concerned with what they are doing. Having said this I believe most shooters are good people willing to help each other and this is the way it should be. To answer the thread NO shooting from the bench is not cheating/unskilled.
 
Speaking of shooting at rocks and dirt clods, I spent a fair part of the late 1950s and all of the 1960s shooting .22 rifles at stuff thrown up in the air. Now that's hard compared to punching paper. And yes, we had a mountain for a backstop.

We shot at 45 records, dirt clods, rocks and even tin cans launched with firecrackers and cherry bombs. If it would move, we would shoot it. We built those little plastic model boats with the battery powered motors and set them circling in the farm ponds and learned to pick the itty-bitty guns off 'em one at a time before we sank them. We'd shoot standing, sitting, leaning and flat on our bellies. Ever win a bet standing on one leg?

Once we took two old .049 gas airplane engines and built two balsawood swamp boats for targets....whoops....across the pond in the blink of an eye and up the bank into the woods - nothing but splinters. I guess the power to weight ratio was a little off.

Once we were deemed trustworthy we were free to come and go. Those were the days. A couple of 10-year-olds turned loose for long weekend camping trips - with guns and firecrackers. And we never got into trouble either.

Hitting moving squirrels, rabbits and groundhogs seemed tame after some of the targets we came up with.

What's the big deal about shooting off a nice clean mat at a stationary piece of paper? Ooooh, kneeling, prone and standing, too. Okay, that's a little harder to do really well, but it's hardly all-around shooting. Or using a straped down canvas coat and a funny-looking glove for support :)

Somebody needs to lighten up a little. Hmmmmm?

Did I miss anybody?

Trap shooters maybe? :)

John
 
Steve, I don’t feel picked on, nor did I get my feelings hurt. There are always going to be people posting on these boards who obviously don’t know what they are talking about. That’s just the way it is, and sometimes you feel like you have to point it out. On the other hand there are usually a lot of good people that make worthwhile contributions to the mix, and “good natured†disagreements are welcome. The “Highpower Board†comment was made because it seemed like a lot of highpower guys were taking the opportunity to tell us how much more skill it takes to do what they do. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It’s just a different set of skills developed through a lot of practice. (by the way, I have nothing against highpower, it’s a very enjoyable sport, and 2 of my closest friends are still shootin it.) As far as trying it…. I have spent considerable time position shooting, do have an appreciation for it, and I still try to keep my hand in it. The fact that I now mainly concentrate on benchrest has little to do with the way I see this thread. “Shooting from the bench cheating/ unskilled?†The very premise of the thread is insulting, or at least ignorant, and it pits one type of shooter against another when the enjoyment of shooting (any kind) is what should be uniting us. Just felt like that should be pointed out.
 
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