Shooting Home Robber in the Back

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In Maine, the intruder needs to be involved in a second crime other then the B&E... theft would count as a second crime.

Or arson alone is justified means for deadly force. Odd.
 
That being said would you shoot a home invader in the back as he is heading out the door (but still within the confines of the house) if he was only stealing [insert valuable MATERIAL possession here]. I guess I'm imagining a robber running out of the house with VCR, or Earrings, etc.

Nitetrain makes a good point, and I had missed it.

The OP has erroneously referred to a burglar as a robber.

That's not an uncommon mistake. M sister in law recently told us that her car had been robbed. On an old Mary Tyler Moore Show episode, Mary reported that her apartment had been robbed, and the police cadet she was dating corrected her: "burglarized, not robbed".
 
I woudn't want to try it.

In fact, I wouldn't want to try to arrest anyone. A peace officer, who acts under approved departmental procedure, is indemnified against civil suits. A citizen is not. Even if he should win the civil trial with no damages being awarded, the citizen may end up spending a very large amount of money just to achieve that outcome. Kinda dumb to try to arrest a robber just to end up owning next to nothing.

And that could be the best case scenario. Claiming to have necessarily and reasonably used deadly force to effect an arrest may well not prove successful as a defense against a murder charge.

Not for me, thanks
!

Once again, it's a matter of taking into account the whole picture. In some cases it's better to offer no resistance and to allow the criminal to take what he or she wants. A good example would be a gunman entering a bank or a crowded store and announcing a robbery. If you can't be sure of incapacitating the gunman immediately and avoiding a prolonged firefight with innocent bystanders in the way then it may well be best to stay your hand unless forced to act.

In New York State using deadly force to effect an authorized arrest is on par with using deadly force to defend your life or the life of another and is just as likely to result in an acquittal as asserting that you were in fear for your life. There have been a number of cases over the years of store owners using deadly force against escaping robbers and a handful of rape victims who shot or otherwise killed their attackers in mid-flight. None of the cases that I saw ever resulted in a homicide conviction or civil judgement against the store owner or rape victim.

Imagine you are a father who has been blitzed in the middle of the night and forced to watch the rapes of your wife and daughter. If you managed to free yourself while your attackers were in the process of loading your property into their truck, after having first called to summon an ambulance and the Police, would you simply let them escape assuming you had the means to stop them?

These types of scenarios, while extremely rare, do play out. And it pays to seriously consider what you would do and why. You also have to go beyond the issue of financial cost. Can you live with yourself if these people attack another family and you could have stopped them?

The Legislature included the 'deadly force to effect an arrest clause' in the Penal Law because of the type of scenario envisioned above and because its authors recognized that it is human nature to chase someone who has just murdered, raped or robbed another human being in front of you. They also recognized the continuing danger that such individuals pose.

Frankly, I consider it quite fortunate that NYS has this provision in its Penal Law because some states do not. I remember a case some years ago in, I believe it was Tennessee, where a man used deadly force to stop an armed murderer from fleeing immediately after having killed his victim. The man was put on trial for murder because state statute didn't allow for the use of deadly force to make an arrest. There was talk at the time of amending the law. I don't know what the final disposition was.

I wouldn't use deadly force against a thief in my home simply because he was stealing but there are circumstances where an individual criminal or group of criminals is so dangerous or depraved that to allow them to escape is unconscionable.

Every case is different, however, and should be judged on its own merits.
 
On the other hand, if you're standing behind a home invader who is presenting an imminent, credible threat to life and limb of another innocent party, shoot him in the back until he's not a threat.

This would be the "Robert Ford Doctrine."
 
It amazes me that some of you think that you somehow owe a criminal intruder a "fair fight".

A home invasion is not a sporting event like a boxing match. A person who chooses to get in the ring does so voluntarily and is therefore honor bound to conduct himself as a gentleman and obey the rules at all times.

If some stranger breaks into your house he has shown blatant disregard for the most basic rules of civilized behavior and should be considered a deadly threat. You did NOT agree to participate and are under no moral obligation to further risk your life by making sure that the intruder has an even chance if violence ensues.
 
It amazes me that some of you think that you somehow owe a criminal intruder a "fair fight".

A home invasion is not a sporting event like a boxing match. A person who chooses to get in the ring does so voluntarily and is therefore honor bound to conduct himself as a gentleman and obey the rules at all times.

If some stranger breaks into your house he has shown blatant disregard for the most basic rules of civilized behavior and should be considered a deadly threat. You did NOT agree to participate and are under no moral obligation to further risk your life by making sure that the intruder has an even chance if violence ensues.

+1 ... and that is pretty much the way South Carolina sees it. Pity all states don't feel that way.
 
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That being said would you shoot a home invader in the back as he is heading out the door?

It would depend on if he were leaving with my property and shooting him was the only way to retrieve it.
Before all you pacifists answer that no one should be shot over property, realize that you are paying taxes to support a military that does exactly that. It is not uncommon for the government to use deadly force to protect "US INTERESTS" all over the world.
 
That being said would you shoot a home invader in the back as he is heading out the door?

It would depend on if he were leaving with my property and shooting him was the only way to retrieve it.

Lawful in Texas, and only at night.

Let's not give the impression to anyone in any of the other forty nine states, the territories, or the District of Columbia that that would be lawful where they live!

By the way, Owen, I'm not sure where the concept of a "fair fight" came into this... that's not an issue anywhere in the county.
 
When the criminal broke into your house and you didn't shoot them because of your feelings, how're you going to feel when he/she does something violent/deadly to their next victim? The direction a criminal is facing is irrelevant imo, they decided to take the chance. Do your duty, do society a favor. Capture them for the cops and some Democrat liberal judge'll let 'em go on a techni and then they'll want some payback. Not to mention all our tax money going to their defense attorney, their clothes, food and housing costs, it's just cheaper for everyone to just shoot 'em.
 
Lawful in Texas, and only at night.

Nope, that would be incorrect. You can shoot an intruder in your home in Texas because an intruder can be considered a lethal threat. As long as the intruder is in your home, the intruder can be considered a threat - day or night.
 
Before all you pacifists answer that no one should be shot over property ...

Man I hope this never happens to you, haven't you read of all the cases that any sane person would consider a justifiable shooting only to end up in court because the bad guy was shot in back or was ONLY stealing property. My point is that we need to know and be aware of what can happen to us after we shoot the bum. Someone said tied to the end of every bullet in cases like this is a lawyer. It only takes ________ (fill in the blank, - DA, Grand Jury, LEO, etc) to turn the homeowners life upside down.

Being 'right' isn't always enough. Be smart too.
 
This thing has over a hundred posts. I am sure that all of them were given due consideration with prevailing morals, social values, and legal issues.

Lots of Monday morning quarterbacking going on. I'll contribute.

Fact is though, if someone enters an occupied home as a thief, that worthy individual is either desperate, reckless, or indifferent. I would fear for my life, and the lives of those I am charged to protect.

salty
 
You can shoot an intruder in your home in Texas because an intruder can be considered a lethal threat. As long as the intruder is in your home, the intruder can be considered a threat - day or night.

Let's make darn sure that no one relies on that, either.

"As long as the intruder is in your home"? Necessary, but not sufficient.

There are also little things like whether (1) the person knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used had "unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force" the home, or (2) the shooting was necessary "to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery". That's robbery, not breaking in and running off with property.

Note that, absent the latter factor (preventing the imminent commission of certain crimes), the fact of unlawful and forcible entry simply establishes the presumption that deadly force was immediately necessary for self defense. That presumption is rebuttable.
 
When the criminal broke into your house and you didn't shoot them because of your feelings, how're you going to feel when he/she does something violent/deadly to their next victim? The direction a criminal is facing is irrelevant imo, they decided to take the chance. Do your duty, do society a favor. Capture them for the cops and some Democrat liberal judge'll let 'em go on a techni and then they'll want some payback. Not to mention all our tax money going to their defense attorney, their clothes, food and housing costs, it's just cheaper for everyone to just shoot 'em.

Without going into a discussion of just who is and who is not empowered to pass judgment and administer justice when someone commits a crime in any of our fifty states, that post embodies three serious problems:

  1. The act suggested would undoubtedly be felonious and result in harsh penalties for the shooter;
  2. In the event of a questionable shooting by the poster in which charges were filed, the post itslef could be used to establish criminal state of mind; and
  3. The post can serve as ammuntion for the anti gun community.

Probably a good idea to think before posting, and if necessary, to learn first also.
 
One of the much overlooked statistics is recidivism. That guy is more than likely going to come back - and you can guess the rest. This has happened to me and to my parents. In my case he found me in the Laz-e-boy with a shotgun the second time and ran like the wind never to return. With my parents he left blood on the broken window and was DNA'd later. I would have to try to stop him, and if he turned, as a threat...well I'd have to see.
 
I once heard it put this way: (paraphasing) EVERRYTHING you own costs you some portion of your LIFE. So, it's not just money. A pen might cost a buck and take you 20 seconds of life to replace. A Computer $2000 which may be 3 months of your life. A house that represents 30 years plus of your life. It all depends on the cost of the item versus your income.
Not really. If someone takes my TV, how is shooting them going to get the time I spent to earn that money back?

Let's say someone got an item so valuable it represented 1 year's salary. If I shoot him, the bloodstained item might be worth 25% less. Now that leaves the conservative estimate of a 5 month trial, plus probably the majority of my salary for legal bills (If you're not counting, that means I've already lost 8 months in money and 5 for the trial, which is more time than it took me to pay for the extremely valuabal item) Court is also very stressfull, even if you're the one who's right and you are the plaintiff. It would be much worse if you are the defendant and you know you commited a crime.


So, how much of your life are you willing to let a thief run away with? That is the question you need to ask yourself.
No, the real question is whether the item in question is worth 20 years of your freedom, because that's what you can lose by shooting him. You also need to ask if you want to wake up every day knowing you killed someone over a TV. You need to ask if the money in legal bills, probably over $90K if you get a good attorney, was worth it. You need to decide if post-traumatic-stress disorder is worth it. You can get that even from a necessary shooting to save your life, it would probably be much worse if you took a life needlessly.


If the person had a gun I might shoot. If he ran from one room in the house to another room with a gun, and I think that he's taking cover (I mean I actually think that, not just an excuse) I would most likely shoot him. However, it's just not worth it for a (most likely insured) item.
 
Double Naught Spy wrote:
Quote: Lawful in Texas, and only at night.
Nope, that would be incorrect. You can shoot an intruder in your home in Texas because an intruder can be considered a lethal threat. As long as the intruder is in your home, the intruder can be considered a threat - day or night.

My CHL instructor said what the original post said is true: at night, no problem. Why? Darkness = sleep time and lends a deeper layer of fear which is necessary in Texas for a clean shoot - you must demonstrate fear for your life. Daytime = light and being able to visibly discern who/what is in your home.

Q
 
One of the much overlooked statistics is recidivism
That's still not worth it. Not only is there a very good chance this person won't re-offend, there's the matter if whether it's worth killing someone, having psycological problems, and $90k in legal bills to stop someone from stealing another T.V.

layer of fear which is necessary in Texas for a clean shoot - you must demonstrate fear for your life. Daytime = light and being able to visibly discern who/what is in your home.
Wouldn't that make the fear about the same? In the day, if you clearly discern someone who is a threat to your life, I'd say that means you're in fear of your life.

Fact is though, if someone enters an occupied home as a thief, that worthy individual is either desperate, reckless, or indifferent. I would fear for my life
, I would also, however, if the person is leaving, he's not a threat.

When the criminal broke into your house and you didn't shoot them because of your feelings, how're you going to feel when he/she does something violent/deadly to their next victim?
The odds are that they won't.
The direction a criminal is facing is irrelevant imo, they decided to take the chance. Do your duty, do society a favor. Capture them for the cops and some Democrat liberal judge'll let 'em go on a techni and then they'll want some payback. Not to mention all our tax money going to their defense attorney, their clothes, food and housing costs, it's just cheaper for everyone to just shoot 'em.
You know this how?

Holding them for the cops is a far better alternative. They go to jail, it doesn't give the impression that all gun owners are a bunch of maniacs who want to kill people, and you don't have to pay $90,000 for an attorney and maybe get convicted, and you don't have to live with killing some teenager over a VCR.
 
It amazes me that some of you think that you somehow owe a criminal intruder a "fair fight".
I think nothing of the sort.

would you simply let them escape assuming you had the means to stop them?
That's actually an interesting scenario. Everyone's alive and the attackers are leaving. Right now getting in to a firefight with presumably more than one person is not a good idea. I think the best option would be to fort up and wait for the ambulance.

Can you live with yourself if these people attack another family and you could have stopped them?
The odds are that they will not kill anyone. Could you live with yourself having killed some teenager over some electronics?

but if you have to use your weapon in a self defense situation, I believe it's POSSIBLE that a prosecuting attorney can use statements against you which you may have made on a public forum.....like this one.

It's one thing to be determined to defend yourself or your family, but telling the world how you're going to go about it may not be too good of an idea.

I would not stop until I found them and I would shoot both their knee caps out so they could sit still and think about what they did. After an hour or two of that I'd just shoot them in the gut and tie them up and gag them so they could die slowly and painfully over several days,





By the way, were the founders of the states that adopted the English Common Law as the foundations of their systems of jurisprudence, starting back in the eighteenth century, "liberal naysayers" as the term is understood today?
No, they were "classic liberals", essentially modern conservatives.
if you have to shoot someone, not to shoot to wound, shoot to kill.
No, shoot to stop. That is, once the threat is stopped, you stop shooting. For instance, if someone runs at me with a shovel, I can shoot until he can't reach me with that shovel. However, if he's still alive, I can't shoot to make sure he's dead, that would be murder.



I would not stop until I found them and I would shoot both their knee caps out so they could sit still and think about what they did. After an hour or two of that I'd just shoot them in the gut and tie them up and gag them so they could die slowly and painfully over several days,
And torturing someone to death solves a problem how?
 
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NO I would NOT shoot him in the back. However I don't see how it is you know the perp is leaving and not just putting a load in the truck and coming in for more. Personally the way I see it is I pump my Winchester model 1300 Defender that I keep by the bed loaded with 00 buck 15 pellet for just such an occasion. Then you tell the bad man to freeze. After this any movement should and in my case WILL be considered hostile and reacted to accordingly.After this time we wait for the cops. NEVER would I just shoot a man in the back though, unless there has been harm done to my family..... then morality and legality are not first on my mind. Just my two cents.
 
An intruder in my home is subject to be shot, without question and without question of direction he is headed.

I'm pretty sure that explains my thoughts on this matter.
 
If you enter my house, the one that my family occupies you have already made the decision to put your life at risk. Especially at nite. I'm asleep......I don't know if you've already grabbed my teenage daughter. I don't think I would ask ya what your doing. I don't know what the law would decide, i'm now in tx. but I really feel that someone in your home without permission does not deserve that much thought. Maybe you could shoot him in the leg until he turns around. Everything I own was earned thru blood sweat and tears. If what you own is that easily replaced than let him go, but it's YOUR stuff period and nobody should be allowed to just take what they want. Theives are vermin and should be treated as such. Today it's your vcr or blue ray player........tomorrow it's your car because you were so easy the first time.
 
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