Shooting +P out of an LCR on a regular basis?

[grendelbane]

My LCR is stamped .38 +p right on the barrel. I do believe it will last a long, long time with +p loads. Eventually, any gun can be worn out.

The LCR is also available as a .357 magnum. Same cylinder and barrel, but the frame is steel instead of aluminum. So the basic design is very strong.

Not all +p ammunition is created equal. Service life with some of the boutique ammo makers may be shorter than service life with +p cartridges from the big 3. I doubt if I would fire more than once if they actually do break 1000 FPS from a 2" barrel. As Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations".

I have only fired a couple of boxes of +ps from my LCR, but I expect it to last a long time.

 

[Guillermo]

think it's safer to say that as new information came to light and problems were observed, SAAMI adjusted their standards to prevent other firearm owners from unintentionally damaging their revolvers in the future.

where is the evidence of the problem that they were trying to solve?

There was no issue.

Basically they took a V6 Mustang and wrote "GT" on the side of it. The insurance companies then charged more for the "hi performance" vehicle.

Jotting "+P" on the box did not change the fact that it is NOT a hot load any more that writing "Miss January" or "sexy" on Rosie O'Donald's bustier makes her hot.

("juicy" on the other hand )

 

[Old Fuff]

and SAAMI changed their tune in 72. Were they lying BEFORE 72 or after...
but they cannot be telling the truth both BEFORE and AFTER...because their tune changed

What changed the tune was a new, and far superior way to collect data. For the first time they could do it using actual revolvers (not an unrelated test fixture). They could observe the entire pressure curve from the chamber to the muzzle, and not only determine maximum pressure, but at what point it occured. Last but not least the data could be collected in terms of PSI (Pounds per Square Inch) rather then the abstract CUP (Copper Units of Pressure). After that a whole lot of things changed.

Again the Old Fuff will point out that there is no question that it is safe (but maybe not advisable) to use Plus-P ammunition in those firearms the manufacturer has cited to be O.K. The other issue is using the same ammunition in earlier revolvers that were not intentionally made to stand up to the additional stress over a long period of time, and with the use of substantial quantities.

 

[Guillermo]

earlier revolvers that were not intentionally made to stand up to the additional stress

there was no ADDITIONAL stress

The previous REGULAR AMMO was the SAME PRESSURE as the new "+P"

Changing the way they measure it did NOT change the pressure

the proof is in the VELOCITY

 

[JRWhit]

Velocity does not necessarily dictate pressure. Advances in powder design and burn rates have proven higher velocities without increased pressure. Due to a prolonged peak pressure rather than a sharp high peak pressure that drods off quickly. If anything I would assume that an older cartridge with the same listed velocity as a new box of ammo could possibly yield higher pressures. Bottom line, standards are recognized by law and will be upheld as proof. If you go outside of these standards you can be as right as you want to, but you will be out on a limb on your own, because if you claim that your 38 should not have blown up with +P rounds because SAAMI changed way back when and that +P is the same as regular rounds from such and such date you'll find yourself with a broken gun not covered by warranty and whatever medical cost you accumulated. Sorry, blame the lawyers.

 

[Remllez]

If a person is worried about shooting plus P loads out of his/her gun, the simplest solution is
(don't do it.) it's gotten to the point that people question whether it's safe to shoot plus P's out of guns clearly marked plus P on the barrel!!!

One could always buy a .357 LCR and avoid the .38 caliber plus P confusion all
together.....As for non marked guns Guillermo's comments are spot on.....Changing the writing on the box made it easier for the ammunition manufacturers to justify charging nearly double the money for the same product!

Pure marketing genius....

 

[Old Fuff]

JRWhit is correct. New developments in gunpowder combined with better ways to measure pressure sometimes made it possible to elevate velocity without adding much or no additional pressure - in the overall picture.

Guillermo is long on noise and short on knowledge. He is not always wrong, but when he's right he's right for the wrong reasons.

He is not going to be able to get any firearms or ammunition manufacturer to go along with his position that it is safe to shoot unlimited amounts of Plus-P ammunition in arms that are not rated for its use, or in older guns where the exact make, model, condition or age of the particular piece is unknown to them.

To do so would place them in a position of accepting additional liability that they don’t have to assume and can easily avoid. If anyone wants to disregard what they say they can (and often do) but by doing so they remove any responsibility or liability the manufacturer had and take it onto themselves. Sometimes the risk is slight, but occasionally otherwise.

The whole story is an interesting one, but the Old Fuff has neither the time, inclination, nor responsibility to go into a lengthily discussion at this time. Maybe later.

 

[moxie]

Raindog's original post concerned shooting +Ps out of an LCR on a continual basis.

Some have decided to get into/continue what appears to be a longstanding argument about issues not related to the poster's question, which has been answered several times.

Kindly suggest those who wish to argue do so via PM so as to spare the rest of us.

 

[Gary A]

Interesting as the discussion is, Moxie is right. Evidence that we seem to have relating to the original question is that Ruger seems to claim they fired 10,000 plus P rounds though one example with wear only to the rifling. This is not reported in this thread but is easily found searching on this subject. Also, a poster and gun writer who does post on this forum, DPris, reported firing nearly 5300 rounds, mostly plus P, through on with measurable frame stretching and increase in barrel/cylinder gap, though the gun was still in spec and shooting fine. This suggests that while continuous use of plus might have a detrimental effect on the aluminum frame, it won't likely happen in the amount of rounds buyer is likely to put through the gun.

I would have no concern about shooting plus P through an LCR.

 

[Old Fuff]

Some have decided to get into/continue what appears to be a longstanding argument about issues not related to the poster's question, which has been answered several times. Kindly suggest those who wish to argue do so via PM so as to spare the rest of us.

O.K. I think you have a point, although I'm not sure how many other readers are bothered. Never-the-less I will go away.

 

[antiquus]

Just shoot it. Your hand will wear out before the LCR will shooting +P.

 

[DPris]

Regardless of pet obsessions (not you, Fuff) over what +P is or isn't nowdays, the original question has been answered.

My testing of the gun was done with longevity as the primary issue.
Measurements were taken in key areas before & after, I did before accuracy off the bench with several loads and after accuracy off the bench with the same loads.

In between it was 5000 rounds of Black Hills' premium +P loads.
The results were as stated.

I was surprised myself, had not expected the gun to hold up.
I would have no reservations about using +P at LEAST up to 5000 rounds, but beyond that I don't know how long it'd remain in specs.

If you plan to shoot 200 rounds of +P a week indefinitely, you WILL wear it out at some point, which would be much sooner than if you only use it on occasion, or if you use lower-powered loads for practice or recreation.
Denis

 

[Guillermo]

Denis is, of course, correct that the OP's question is answered

The facts are simple and irrefutable

the only difference between a 1970 Remington (take your pick of manufacturer) 38 special cartridge and a 1972 Remington 38 special cartridge is the box that it came in.

If you think that writing "+P" on the box made the ammo more powerful...may God bless you. Being that gullible makes you a target in today's world.

To say that no "firearms or ammunition manufacturer to go along with his position that it is safe to shoot unlimited amounts of Plus-P ammunition in arms that are not rated for its use, or in older guns where the exact make, model, condition or age of the particular piece is unknown to them." is to miss the point. Old Fuff is has done his best to obfuscate, will not answer direct questions on the subject, and stays to his talking points. There is a future for him as White House press secretary.

There is no question that any quality revolver that was safe to shoot regular ammo prior to 1971 is safe to shoot +P if the gun is in working order.

 

[Gary A]

The difference between "safe to shoot" and "advisable to shoot" or "will it cause premature wear to shoot" is quite obvious even if it would appear that some would fuzzy up that difference. The question was never one about safety but about the proper way to take care of a piece of equipment.

At any rate, the discussion seems to taking on a personal dimension and personal accusations are beginning to be tossed about for reasons that escape me so I'm going to retire from the field.

 

[DPris]

Give it a rest, Guill, time to move on.
Denis

 

[Guillermo]

you are right Denis

 

[DPris]

That's four times this year.
Gotta make a diary entry on it.
Denis