Shooting tips please?

[iMagUdspEllr]

The two targets I have attached show my shooting on Sunday. I was shooting a Glock 22 at 10 yards with Federal Premium 180 grain FMJ rounds. Each target has 45 rounds through it (or very close to that... I did pretty bad). I'm left handed.

The google searches I have done told me that I'm "pushing". I wish that actually meant something to me and I wish I knew how to correct it.

I apologize if this isn't the correct location for this question. But none of the other sections of the forum seem to relate to marksmanship help.

Thank you all for your input in advance.

 

[David E]

Describe your grip, stance and technique.

For 10 yds, those targets can be improved upon.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

The attached pictures show my grip.
My stance is with my left foot back and my right foot forward. My shoulders are 45 degrees to the left (towards my strong side). I take a few breaths, exhale, then hold, then align the sights, then take up the slack, then squeeze. Then I repeat.

 

[David E]

My stance is with my left foot back and my right foot forward.

Feet should be just wider than shoulder width apart.

My shoulders are 45 degrees to the left (towards my strong side).

That's too much. face your torso towards the target.

I take a few breaths, exhale, then hold, then align the sights, then take up the slack, then squeeze. Then I repeat.

Align knuckles with knuckles. Squeeze the grips TOGETHER, side to side (not front to back), with 70% of the pressure coming from your SUPPORT hand.

Watch the top edge of the front sight as you squeeeeeeeze the trigger.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

Thanks I need to space my feet apart more and face the target (my mistake... self taught kinda). Ohhh I always look at the dot of the front sight. I will focus on the top edge of the sight. Thank you very much.

 

[David E]

Yeah, that dot wants you to look at it, but in the overall scheme of things, it gets in the way when it comes to making an accurate shot.

Keep us posted!

 

[9mmepiphany]

That does seem like it would explain your high shots and the spread.

The front dot doesn't allow distinct alignment in the rear notch. The top of the front blade need to be level with the top of the ears of the rear sight and the blade needs to be centered in the notch with equal amounts of light visible on each side.

Your support hand could be higher up on the gun, straighten you right wrist and point that thumb toward the target. relax your left thumb, it doesn't grip

 

[PT1911]

Whats up 9mmepiphany? We dont get to see your grip this time?


Imag, listen to 9mm and the others for that matter... all good advice given so far.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The above advice is all well and good, but the main problem is that you're anticipating the recoil. Your hand is squeezing as you pull the trigger, which pulls your shot to the right and high. It's a "flinch".

Your trigger finger movement has to be completely independent of the rest of the hand(s). Do some dry-firing or (better) get a .22 conversion and mentally force your finger to be independent.

 

[ATBackPackin]

Here is a shot analysis target, but since you are left handed it would be the mirrored version for you. Pushing means you are dipping the gun forward anticipating the recoil instead of squeezing the trigger and allowing the break to be a surprise.

Shawn

 

[lebowski]

Dryfire, dryfire, dryfire.

Try the trick where you put a coin on the slide, and dryfire (without the coin falling).

Hate to say it but 9mm may have been a better choice to start out w/ than .40 (but you can still learn to shoot the .40 well)

 

[mariahpc02]

What kodiakbeer said is right.You are anticipating a bit,so in the process you instinctively bring your hand higher,thats why the shots are off target.best advice in this case is to reduce your anticipation of recoil by practicing more dry fires

 

[Hk Dan]

All good advice.

I'm going to posit one more possibility, and that is that you are looking for the hole in your target just before the shot breaks. That will tend to take to shot high and in a big group if your grip is not solid.

 

[3:00hold]

For me, both hands are a little low. You should have a crease on the top of your gun hand, and your support hand should be higher also, but that's more important for follow-up shots than accuracy.

Make sure you have a good sight picture, as was said - make sure you have a clear front sight. Then practice your trigger pull over, and over, and over, and over. You probably have a combination of a little issue with your sight alignment and a big issue with your trigger pull. If it was only sight alignment, the group would be off, but tighter.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Whats up 9mmepiphany? We dont get to see your grip this time?

I hate boring folks with the same picture...it wasn't ever intended as an example of the correct grip, it was part of a storyboard for a film project that didn't happen...but I do think it is one of the better ones available

 

[Cearbhall]

I'll jump in. See if you sights move any when you dry fire. Adjust your trigger finger 'till they stop moving

 

[Top_Gunn]

I'm certainly no expert. But, after a lot of frustrating attempts, here's what finally worked for me. I pretty much stopped worrying about fine details of stance and grip, and just used what felt comfortable and natural, which for me is pretty much a Chapman stance and a grip with thumbs forward. Then concentrated on two things: squeezing harder with my weak hand than with my trigger-finger hand, and focusing, intensely, on the front sight. Shooting improved a lot. Sometimes I develop a tendency to flinch; a couple of hundred rounds with a .22 takes care of that.

Your mileage may differ. In the end, you've got to figure out what works for you.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

I'm going to post a picture of my grip to verify with you guys that I have made the appropriate corrections. Is my support hand thumb supposed to be even with my trigger finger when my trigger finger is outside of the trigger guard? I can't seem to do that when I raise my support hand higher on the grip.

Well maybe I just don't notice because I'm just dry firing. But I'm pretty much steady as a rock when the trigger breaks with a dime on the front sight.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Your grip is fine. There is no right or wrong grip (within reason). There are lots of grips and they change over the years like wide and skinny ties depending on who is making a buck on the latest minuscule difference in style.

What doesn't change is that your finger has to work independently of the rest of your hand, and that breaking trigger has to come smoothly and as a surprise. It is anticipation of recoil/noise that is at the root of 95% of shooting errors. Don't worry about your grip, just isolate that trigger finger and concentrate on the front sight.

 

[ColdDeadHand]

With groups like that it's likely multiple issues going on. All of the above looks like solid advice.

Here's my $.02. If you have the $$ you should consider getting a competent gunsmith to lighten the trigger. I have a couple of weapons I cannot group with, like my SKS. A lot of it is trigger weight. It's just hard not to tremble when you're repeatedly trying to pull 8, 10 or even more pounds with your trigger finger.

Does your group widen the more you shoot? That might suggest fatigue.

PS,
If you can, borrow a buddy's custom 1911 with a nice trigger. See if that helps.

 

[AKElroy]

Since this is a defensive weapon, your groups are fine for that purpose. As for stringing high, 180gr is heavy for HD IMO. I stay w/ 165gr or lighter. The heavier 180's will shoot a little high by comparison.

I will break from tradition here & say that you can always adjust the weapon to your most natural hold. If you want to shoot the 180's & like your stance, then drift the rear a little left & call it good.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

My ½ cent:

Do you have proper sight alignment when you take the shot?

If so, are you using a 6 o'clock hold?

That's what the targets look like to me, in which case you would likely improve the group simply by maintaining a firm and steady grip from shot to shot. In other words, working on followthrough and steady trigger control plus a firmer grip may smarten things up.

If you're using a center hold and getting groups like that, though, it looks like one of these:

a) poor sight alignment is putting the front sight high out of the rear sight notch, resulting in high shots, or,
b) you're starting with a good sight picture, but “heeling” the gun at the moment of firing, that is, pushing at the butt of the gun with the heel of your hand as you fire, which causes the front sight to go high (and the rounds).

It also looks to me like you're possibly mashing the trigger a bit sideways when pulling it. Being left-handed, this mashing deflects those shots rightward, and may well be the result of where you're putting the finger on the trigger (too much finger on the trigger supposedly causes this, but my finger on a buncha different triggers tells me that how much or how little finger I have on a trigger has less to do with where it sends bullets than simply pulling straight back, as trigger reaches differ on different pistols). Of course the same rightward drift in the otherwise high group can result from winging the right elbow outward (most notable to me when shooting Weaver-ish, in which the functional isometric tension that should stabilize vertically instead leaks to the side, pulling the gun thattaway, but I get the same results if I do something similar in Iso). Of course the rightward deflection of the group could indicate undue pressure exerted on the left side of the pistol.

Can't really tell, though, without watching you shoot.

But at this distance, the groups look entirely useful for defensive work.

By the way, I'm no expert. Probably not even quotable. Take what's useful and disregard the rest.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

I think I'm heeling because I am not gripping hard at all with my support hand. Thanks to you guys I now know that I have to grip much harder with my support hand. That will probably at least prevent the "heeling" side-effect. I'm guessing that me grabbing tightly with my strong hand and barely grabbing with my support hand causes the heeling just by the nature that the gun is free to recoil away from my strong hand (up and right). I will grip tighter and try to actually create groups next time I go to the range. I will shoot 5 rounds at a time and take photos to see what I'm doing wrong in real time.

 

[IlikeSA]

Why don't you try this suggestion. Unload your pistol, and verify it is unloaded. Pick a target at eye level, then point your pistol at it with your eyes closed. Open your eyes. Is your pistol pointing at your target, or aiming above it at an angle?

 

[Manco]

I wouldn't worry overly much about your grip--use whatever is most comfortable for you, points relatively naturally, keeps your fingers away from accidental contact with the controls, and allows you to retain your weapon well enough (personally, I also require that my strong hand grips the gun exactly as if I were going to shoot one-handed, which is a distinct possibility in certain situations).

Pulling your shots to the upper-right could very well indicate flinching, alright. One thing that could help (it helped me, anyway) is to force yourself to stop blinking in anticipation of a shot, if that is something you do, so that you can see yourself flinching--then try to stop flinching by focusing mentally on the sight picture so intensely that you're not even thinking about the shot, which should ideally surprise you. Using snap caps is a common and effective way to help you better see what you're doing--mix a couple randomly in the magazine (get somebody else to do this if it would help, but if you're not thinking about each shot, then it shouldn't matter much), and when the shot doesn't happen, it should be easy to see whether and how badly you're flinching (don't blink!). It is this visual feedback that intuitively helps guide your practice. Also practice dry-firing to reinforce in your mind and gut how it should feel to shoot for real, as if there were no shot forthcoming.

Aside from flinching, there may still be consistency issues with your trigger pull or some unsteadiness in holding the gun, given the width of your groups (I say this because when I've flinched I still got fairly tight groups, just way off target ). I'm not saying that you're doing badly, mind you, because your shots would still be on the target at common combat ranges, but let's see if we can help you do better (and I think that you can). If you really want to see what you're doing clearly, a laser can be a great training aid in this regard. A "real" one designed for combat would be ideal because you could shoot with it without breaking it, but if you don't want to pay the hefty price (I haven't yet but if I do someday it would be because I've chosen to use it in combat), then any cheap laser (e.g. designed for Airsoft guns, like I one I train with) will do for dry-firing.