Shooting two-handed - how to hold the gun

[mikemyers]

I have always thought the most accurate way to shoot two handed was to face the target, with the gun in front of me, arms converging from right and left, and allowing my arms to absorb the recoil.

I have watched Chris Sajnog's videos for years, and just viewed this one:
Proper Pistol Grip - Navy SEAL Teaches How to Grip a Pistol


His idea is my gun should first be held in my right hand, and the gun should be in line with my right arm, so the recoil goes right down my arm.

Chris has been so right about properly viewing the front sight, that I trust him - but which of these two ways is considered to be best for the best precision?

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

What works for you is the best.

 

[trackskippy]

Generally, but the more you learn as you go along, the more you have to pull from, to base whats right for you. In the moment anyway.

And the second you start to move, the grip/stance that was perfect for you standing still, no longer is. And then when you change direction....

If you only know "one way", youre probably not going to do too well, the second you have to shoot another way.

 

[JTQ]

His idea is my gun should first be held in my right hand, and the gun should be in line with my right arm, so the recoil goes right down my arm.

That works as long as you can still reach the trigger.

 

[westernrover]

You should learn the three basic grips/stances -- isoceles, Chapman, Weaver. They each have their advantages and drawbacks and many people will point out that in combat/self-defense a person is not likely to stand upright and square-off with a statinary target. Even so, you can learn all three methods in about an hour. It seems reasonable to work on all of them and determine what works best for you and to develop some kind of rationale for your personal choice.

There are more details to the two-handed grip to sort out also -- thumbs forward, thumbs down, barrel in alignment with forearm or the hand rotated around the grip to get more finger on the trigger, "cup and saucer" support hand, "wedge grip" (Ayoob explains this one), etc.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

What is "best" depends on many variables.

Maybe for his build, his experience, his grip, his firearm, and his level of caffeine in his blood, this is the best.

But what if his "ideal" stance cannot be obtained? What if he has an injury of some sort? What if the person involved is cross-eye dominant? What if the scenario involves drawing and shooting from a seated position in a restaurant? What if he has to shoot from behind a barrier of some sort?

Relatively static shooting conditions at most ranges is one thing...real life, however, often is not so clear cut.

Study the PRINCIPLES behind various grips, postures, stances, etc. and learn to adapt them to whatever scenario you may encounter.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Maybe in fairness, a few different vids of “proper pistol grip” should also be watched.

 

[crstrode]

There is no "proper" pistol grip technique, however there are, indeed, several improper methods.

Simply google "improper pistol grip" and look at the images.

 

[JTQ]

Maybe in fairness, a few different vids of “proper pistol grip” should also be watched.

from the SIG Academy there is this

 

[.38 Special]

I have lived through - if I recall correctly - three separate "This is the only way to do it, no way else is right, if you don't do it this way you're a total dork" eras. Older folks doubtless recall more.

The most recent reminder was a 20-something trainer with the operator beard and tats who saw me holding my gun according to the previous "This is the only way" theory and actually laughed out loud: "Dude, like, I've never actually seen anyone use that old technique".

I bit my tongue on the "I was winning trophies with this technique while you were still in your nappies" reply and simply asked him to show me the "right" way. (This involved moving my right thumb from underneath my left and driving my left thumb forward, just like today's "operators". And which, of course, has made no improvement whatsoever, even after having trained with it now for several months.)

Which is a long-winded way of saying that as long as you are not doing anything dramatically wrong (gripping your shooting wrist with your off hand, for example) you can more-or-less ignore the kids who think their way is the only way.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I have lived through - if I recall correctly - three separate "This is the only way to do it, no way else is right, if you don't do it this way you're a total dork" eras. Older folks doubtless recall more.

The most recent reminder was a 20-something trainer with the operator beard and tats who saw me holding my gun according to the previous "This is the only way" theory and actually laughed out loud: "Dude, like, I've never actually seen anyone use that old technique".

I bit my tongue on the "I was winning trophies with this technique while you will still in your nappies" reply and simply asked him to show me the "right" way. (This involved moving my right thumb from underneath my left and driving my left thumb forward, just like today's "operators". And which, of course, has made no improvement whatsoever, even after having trained with it now for several months.)

Which is a long-winded way of saying that as long as you are not doing anything dramatically wrong (gripping your shooting wrist with your off hand, for example) you can more-or-less ignore the kids who think their way is the only way.

Yep.

And there's only so many ways to reinvent the wheel.

 

[.308 Norma]

Which is a long-winded way of saying that as long as you are not doing anything dramatically wrong - gripping your shooting wrist with your off hand, for example) you can more-or-less ignore the kids who think their way is the only way.

Yep.

 

[.38 Special]

Yep.

And there's only so many ways to reinvent the wheel.

If I live long enough I expect to someday be trained by a teenager who will show me the latest "This is the only way" technique and have it turn out to be Jack Weaver's stance exactly.

 

[trackskippy]

Theres no doubt, things have progressed. But there are times, the "old ways" just work better, even if it is for just one thing. As an example, if youre moving off to the right, and shooting to the left as you go, you'll likely need to morph into a version of a Weaver stance if you want to keep shooting and moving, and it even kind of morphs into a version of CAR the harder you swing towards the rear.

If youve come up through all the different "right ways" of doing things, back when they were right, you at least have them in your brain and your brain knows when they are "right", and just takes care of it. If you dont have them, you either make up a "new way" (same as the old way ) and may even try and sell it to the world as the latest and greatest, or you go with what you onlty know, and probably dont do too well.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

When I try Sajnog's grip I find the only way to get my eyes on the sights is to flop my head so far over to the side that my ear is pressing into my shoulder, and shut my dominant eye (I'm cross-dominant).

 

[earlthegoat2]

The fact is, no one is ever going to divert me from “thumb of my support hand fully engaging the top of the thumb of my gun hand” as I was taught to shoot heavy recoiling hunting handguns.

So yes. I am going to use a hunting technique for all of my shooting be it a 460 S&W or a Glock 19.

Im sure I could do a lot worse.

 

[trackskippy]

If you want to study one thing, study Bruce Lee's philosophy. Theres a clue in there.

 

[doubleh]

Ho hum, at my age you use whatever stance you can manage with the least hurt and do the same with your hands.

Humans come in all different sizes, varying shapes, etc. Pick which you do the best with and try to improve on it.

 

[hso]

There are different effective techniques for different situations, but the fit of the firearm in you hand is always part of the "right" way to shoot a handgun. If you start with a gun that fits your hand/wrist/arm then you will be ahead of those that have a gun that does not. Add training and practice up to a thousand rounds and odds are the person that picked the properly fitted gun for them will be a more accurate and faster shooter than those that haven't. Fit the gun to you, not you to the gun.

 

[mikemyers]

I have always thought the most accurate way to shoot two handed was to face the target, with the gun in front of me, arms converging from right and left, and allowing my arms to absorb the recoil.

Maybe I wasn't clear about my request. I was only referring to target shooting, and the question was only about precision. I've read all those articles, and done a lot of testing at the range, and I have found what works best for me. To try to shoot like Chris suggests, I have to cock my head to the right, so I am looking down my arm, and the gun is simply an extension of my arm, and perhaps the recoil will be controlled better? If the only thing that counts is the score from the target, using one or two hands, which method, if any, is optimized for precision? I suppose it is what Bullseye shooters do, with one hand, but I'm asking about shooting with two hands.

The specific gun I was thinking about as I posted this was a Springfield SA-35, but that shouldn't matter. I already shoot with the stance and grip that seems to work best for me, but Chris is suggesting something quite different. That's why I posted this thread.

 

[Steven_Seagull]

I use the following technique to great success; I use my dominant hand as my shooting hand, I point it around a corner usually from behind cover, the other hand holds my pants up from the front while my dominant hand fires the gun while holding it sideways to maximize my column of fire.

 

[bummer7]

Maybe I wasn't clear about my request. I was only referring to target shooting, and the question was only about precision. I've read all those articles, and done a lot of testing at the range, and I have found what works best for me. To try to shoot like Chris suggests, I have to cock my head to the right, so I am looking down my arm, and the gun is simply an extension of my arm, and perhaps the recoil will be controlled better? If the only thing that counts is the score from the target, using one or two hands, which method, if any, is optimized for precision? I suppose it is what Bullseye shooters do, with one hand, but I'm asking about shooting with two hands.

Mike, any chance you are left eye dominant?

 

[mikemyers]

Gee.....

Relatively static shooting conditions at most ranges is one thing...real life, however, often is not so clear cut.

Ho hum, at my age you use whatever stance you can manage with the least hurt and do the same with your hands.

No, I'm right-eye dominant, and I'm 79, and I'm not moving about, and the target is fixed in place 15, 25, or 50 yards away. When possible, I use a red dot sight, with second choice being adjustable open sights (suitable for bullseye shooting). I wasn't clear enough when I posted this thread, sorry. The targets are scored after shooting 10 rounds, and I would like to get better scores. I guess there is no simple answer to my question, so I'll simply continue with what I've learned, face the target, lean forwards, grip the gun with my right hand, and use my left hand to fill in the empty spaces on the gun, pretty much as Chris showed in his video. This has the gun directly in front of me, lined up towards the target, and not in line with either of my arms - it's between them. I try to support more of the weight of the gun with my left (support) hand, which gives me better trigger control - and speaking of trigger, I just gradually apply more and more pressure, never being sure of exactly when the gun will fire. That alone made a huge improvement in my group size. Guns can be anything from a tiny PPK/S to my old S&W Model 29's, bu I'm mostly talking about guns like 1911'a and my new (very frustrating) Springfield SA-35 which seems to have a mind of its own, and has already been returned to Springfield four time, where they eventually replaced the whole gun, and on the next return, did a trigger job and replaced the barrel. It now has a 5# trigger that feels reasonably smooth, but has a little "creap". My other guns behave better, or maybe I should say I know how to shoot them better. I'd like to shoot one handed, but I'm not strong enough. If it wasn't for the SA-35, I wouldn't be posting this thread. That gun seems to have a mind of its own - or maybe it's really as terrible as the guys at BH Spring Solutions told me. If I wasn't so stupidly stubborn, I'd get rid of it and go back to my other guns that work.

When I try to align the gun right down my right arm, I suppose my arm does better at fighting/absorbing the recoil, but my head is cocked so far to the right to look down my arm, it feels very un-natural.

Thanks for all the advice, but much of it doesn't apply to someone just standing in place, shooting at paper targets, with no concern of them shooting back at me.


......added later - most of my guns eventually give me reasonable results, but I've had horrible luck with 9mm. My Taurus PT92-AFS refused to shoot well for me, or my friends. My Springfield SA-35 is finally almost acceptable at 15 yards. My definition of minimally acceptable is "all holes in the black in a B-8 target at 15 yards. I'm using 115 grain ammo, but will be switching to 147 grain, which other shooters tell me will work better for me. But watching Hickok45's fifteen minute review of the SA-35 suggested the gun is more capable than what I'm thinking it is.... meaning the weakest point is ME, not the gun, which I fully accept. Next step is to shoot it from a rest, and decide if I want to keep wasting more time or ammo on it, or dump it.

 

[film495]

I'm no expert, but I think in the competition world there is some convincing evidence that square to the target is fastest and most accurate. That doesn't work for me personally, it feels a bit unnatural and off balance. I think unless one is a competition shooter working at high high high performance levels, this question is similar to finding natural point of aim. Figure out your natural stance and natural point of aim, and for most peope I think this will be the most effective stance. Grip to me is a trick, have to think about getting my left/off hand engaged more, and my tendency is to have my right/rear foot back a bit too much and if I bring it in a bit that matches my natural point of aim more closely.

 

[trackskippy]

Considering the type of shooting youre doing, and having shot a couple of different target type disciplines in the past, two things seem to be missing here and stand out. Those being "fitness" and dryfire", both of which are major benefits to that type of shooting, and just shooting in general.

I fully understand your age and Im only about 10 years behind you, but keeping yourself fit and your muscles toned, makes a major difference if youre shooting using your body as the platform, and not just shooting off a bench/rest. If youre not doing something to address that, Id suggest doing so. You dont have to do anything crazy or hard, but you do want to at least maintian what you have.

Dryfire is also a major help here, and it also helps with the fitness part, especially the muscles you need to shoot with. More than anything though, it just helps you focus on doing things properly, and reinforces that, without the distraction of muzzle blast and recoil.

I think if you just work on that, youll see improvement start to happen, and fairly quickly. Id also try as many different things as you ca grip and stance wise, and see what works best for you, with how you want to shoot.

Thats where Bruce Lee comes in too, learn as much as you can, about everything that you can, and take from that, only the things that are useful to you.