Short Barreled, .308 Semi Autos

[phoglund]

If the concept of a "one gun" is predicated on lack of funds I would definately recommend the Saiga 16" .308. If you want optics for it order a belarus scope such as the POSP 8X42 with lighted reticle and 1000 meter range finder for around $140 ( A lot of scope for the money). I don't know what these are going for these days. I paid $240 for mine. For under $400 you get a durable, reliable, and accurate .308 autoloader! I'm not a great shot off the bench but am able to get 1.5 MOA accuracy @ 100 yards using Australian surplus ammo without any trouble. See link below:

http://wardragon.com/cruffler/saiga__762_x_51.htm

If money is no object other firearms may be a better choice. (I wouldn't know as this is the only .308 autoloader I own)

 

[spartacus2002]

Well, if you guys can do 1 MOA with iron sights, I stand corrected and will be the first to admire your ability - and wish that I had those eyes

Match M1A, prone slung position, iron sights, Port surplus. Of course, it took me several thousand rounds of practice to get to that point

 

[trbon8r]

I have on occasion shot MOA with iron sights out of both my match Garand and my match M1A from the prone position at the 200 yard line. That's not the point.

The point I was trying to make is that I take exception to statements that make this sound like the norm rather than what it is, which is one outstanding group out of several.

Then again, I do mostly highpower shooting which is my frame of reference. It's been a long time since I've shot from a bench so my perspective may have become a bit skewed. I never had much interest in putting a rifle in one of those vise grip thingamajigs that reduce the shooter to not much more than a loader and trigger puller.

For what it's worth to answer this guy's original question, the shorter barreled M1As seem to be a popular alternative. If it were me I'd recommend an 18.5 barrel rather than the 16. If you want a shorter barrel than the standard 22", I think the 18.5" barrel is a good compromise. The rifle will be handy, but not too short.

 

[HillbillyChuck]

Just saw this post

Hey Glockamolee,

I have been going through this same selection process just recently looking for a carbine length .308.

Right now all my SHTF guns are 7.62x39's (chinese AK's and SKS's) which are pretty good, but I live out in the country with lots of big trees and stuff to hide behind where a .308 would come in super handy. I live alone with my wife and my nearest neighbor is at least a mile away and seperated by a couple of hills so I have absolutely no worries about overpenetration.

I test all my SHTF guns and setups by using them for hunting deer. I figure if you can use a rifle to kill a mature deer cleanly that it will work for hunting and you can use it for defense too cause a deer is generally harder to kill than a human. 7.62x39 makes a great brush gun and open shots out to 150 yards ain't bad for killing deer(although they do tend to run a good bit further than if they was hit with a .270win), but anything further than that and you've got holdover to make and you start losing a lot of power. My favorite cartridge for deer hunting is .270Win and if I could get a military style rifle chambered for it I would. I can get something that is pretty darn close though, .308.

So I've recently been thinking about going to a .308 battle rifle of carbine length and a .308 boltgun and a Browning BAR in .308(just cause I really like BAR's) to replace my .270's, and my 7.62x39's, and my 7.62x54R mosin-nagants. I want a carbine cause it would be handier to move around and store and cause I'm kinda crippled up(disabled army veteran), so I've been researching them some lately and this is what I've come up with so far.

Right off the bat I eleminated the M1A and other M-14 clones cause they are just too darned expensive for someone like myself who is on a small fixed income.

I also cut the AR-10 and clones out there cause they are also very expensive, and they seem to be (at least to me) to be to sensitive to ammo and dirt, etc. (although a AR-10 in .243win would be a cool rifle to just have).

I cut the H&K, CETME, PTR-91, etc. out of the running because all the FAQ's I read about them said that they have a problem shooting .308win instead of 7.62x51 NATO. Correct me if I'm wrong here but that means no good quality soft point ammo for these puppies. I prefer to use good quality bonded core soft point ammo that has good controlled expansion. I really only use FMJ surplus stuff for plinking and general target practice.

That leaves the AK style .308's and the FN clones.

The AK style .308s (Saiga and VEPR II) are extremely attractive price-wise and both seem to be sturdy, reliable, and fairly accurate. I think the VEPR II looks better but it is also more expensive. I think there is a poster here on the forums whose shop can customize a Saiga buy for roughly the price of a VEPR II. I need to check on that option more. The other thing in their favor, for me at least, is the fact that some of my stuff for the AK will switch over to these guns. I've already got a RSA trigger group and a Kobra sight that will move over to either of these guns. The thing that really bugs me about these guns is the fact that there are no hicap mags available for them. I don't know if that should really be a major sticking point, I mean a garand did just fine with 8 and a SKS does just fine with 10, but the fact that I can't get 20 rd mags for these rifles really bothers me for some reason. If I can get past that I might go for one of these.

As far as the FN clones go I cut the SA58's from the running cause I just can't afford them(but they are damn cool), and cause I'm really not sure how good it is to replace the lower reciever with aluminum. I really like the STG58s that DS Arms has. Quality construction, real Austrian military parts, steel reciever, bipod and a medium high(but barely do-able) price make these very attractive to me, as well as the companies reputation. The design is supposed to be very rugged, and fairly accurate for a battle rifle. The Century FN's are very attractive pricewise, but from what I understand the QC is hit or miss so you might get a good one or you might not. If you didn't you might have to hassle with getting it taken care of, but it still might end up being cheaper than the other options even with some extra parts and some minor gunsmithing.

So really at this point I'm trying to decide between the Saiga, the VEPR, the STG-58, or a Century R1A1. Any other thoughts on these rifles would be greatly appreciated and if I'm wrong in any of my assumtions in the above post I'd be happy for someone to clue me in on the real deal.

HillbillyChuck

 

[silicon wolverine]

The issue with CETMEs HK91s etc is ripping the head off a case and leaving the neck stuck in the chamber. Ive shot lots (about 250 rounds) of win .308 SP in my CETME and never had a problem. It had alot to do with the brass maker. remington brass is notoriously thin and federal is a close second. You can buy lapua or norma brass but thats a pile of dough. If you section different brass youll find win is way thicker than others. We went through this over on GB and the consensus was if you want to shoot SP either shoot win or pull mil bullets and load them with SPs. The only caveat to this is bullets have to be crimped good or have a cannelure to prevent setback but thats any auto.

SW

 

[silicon wolverine]

Another shorty

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uploaded/donj/20064918335_SP89 CETME.jpg

SW

 

[HillbillyChuck]

Thanks for that info silicon wolverine. I think that actually puts the the H&K clones back in the running for me and makes my descision even harder
Those PTR-91's are pretty sweet looking deals. And the CETME's too.

HillbillyChuck

 

[silicon wolverine]

The CETME i have is a very reliable rifle. I have zero problems with it even with a less than optimal cleaning regimen. If you decide on a CETME i woudl reccomend trying to find one fo the cast reciver models. While the stmaped ones like mine are excellent, the cast models have better accuracy and quaility.

SW

 

[kfranz]

Quick change barrel FAL lets you choose short or long barrel.

 

[Foxtrot427]

Wow, a cetme pistol. Thats gotta be pretty hard to shoot.

 

[Correia]

HillbillyChuck, that is my shop that does the custom Saigas. We use Tromix for all of our custom AK work.

 

[glockenstein]

If you want an M1A / M14 with a forged receiver check out www.lrbarms.com
I have their "Tanker" build with a 18.5 criterion barrel and it is great. They are $$ but top notch.

 

[HillbillyChuck]

Hey Correia,

Thanks for chiming in here. Could y'all do a .308 Saiga with the tromix conversion gen1-308 with a 18" barrel and converted to take FN metric mags? How much would that run? That one at the top of the tromix rifles page has a big mag in it what kind of mag conversion is that?

You sell a lot of .308 rifles in your shop, which ones do you prefer?

HillbillyChuck