Short Carbines and Madd Science.

[Ugly Sauce]

I'm more of a rifle guy, than a carbine guy, but I didn't really know what else to do with this junker. I've had this for years, and cut it down a few times, (what was I thinking?) and lately decided I might as well make a super-snubbie out of it. I've never been able to get consistent accuracy out if it, so why not a coach-gun, berry picking gun, trekking gun? This is the third time I've made the barrel shorter, she's at 20" now. I thought about a 16" barrel, but could not bring myself to do it.

For those purposes, I found that it shoots a double ball load pretty good. The target above was at 25 yards, you can see the balls have barely separated. The two "black holes" marked in below were from yesterday at about 40 yards, you can see they have separated good at that range. The are low because I had not filed my front sight yet. I have it dialed and filed in now, right where I want it, for the double ball load. That load is a wax wad over the powder, a patched ball, then a felt wad, and the other patched ball. If you ever load double ball, be sure to ram both down at the same time. Do not ram one ball down over the powder, then load the next. They both have to go down at the same time. Unless of course, you want the second ball to rise up from compressed air, and have a 3-4" separation between the balls when you touch her off.

The top target is two rounds of the paper cartridges. Wow they load fast! As you can see they shoot quite high, but that's okay, as they are for super close range/last ditch stand use. I would not shoot them over 25 yards unless I had plenty of them with me. I figure the double ball load is good out to 50 yards at most.

 

[gtrgy888]

That’s a sound concept filling a similar niche to a defensive shotgun. 20” is about right. Shorter than that could shed too much velocity.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Right, figured that was still enough barrel to burn 80 grains of powder reasonably well.

 

[ThomasT]

That is a very Business looking gun. I like it. I load a 2 ball load in my 20ga shotgun loads using two 50 caliber balls. They will stay within a couple of inches of each other at 25 yards. I'm not really sure what they do past that but they would make a heck of a SD load.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Thank you. The .570" balls weigh 275 grains each, so that's a lot of lead on target, more than most minnie' ("Min-yay"!) balls. That's a lot of lead on target, with two wound channels. I found it interesting that they print so close at 25, but then have a good spread at 40. I'm pretty sure they'll both stay on the plate at 50, and I'm happy with that.

You must put those .50" balls in a shot-cup?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Here's a little 20gauge Savage Trekking/Wilderness survival gun I made. (yeah it's not black powder, don't tell) Light as a feather, very accurate with Brenekke slugs. I've thought about a double ball black powder load, but I think think the Brenekke's are quite powerful. And of course, with shot loads you can drop grouse and roll bunnies all day.

 

[ThomasT]

Thank you. The .570" balls weigh 275 grains each, so that's a lot of lead on target, more than most minnie' ("Min-yay"!) balls. That's a lot of lead on target, with two wound channels. I found it interesting that they print so close at 25, but then have a good spread at 40. I'm pretty sure they'll both stay on the plate at 50, and I'm happy with that.

You must put those .50" balls in a shot-cup?

Yes I use a Remington SP20 wad because it doesn't have the fingers on the inside of the petals and the balls will drop right in without bulging. I use load data for a 1oz load and it works fine and the shell crimps right back up. I have an old Lee loader. I would like to get a 12ga Lee loader but I can wait until things straighten out a little. I only have 400 SG primers on hand any way.

I also just bought a short barreled H&R NEF 12ga with full choke. I want to remove all the choke and use it as a buckshot and maybe buck and ball gun. I bought it for $90 off GB. Nobody else bid on it.

Cool motorcycle by the way.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

I've got a side lock Cabela's Carbine with a 20" barrel and a 1:24 twist. It was made by Investarms and has a chrome lined bore. Kind of limited; max load is only 80 gr. Of 2f, but it was a good deal and unfired as I recall.

It shoots sabots over loose Pyrodex better than any of the inlines I've got. Didn't think I'd like it, but I do. Besides being very accurate, the thing is really handy, quick and light to carry.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Yes I use a Remington SP20 wad because it doesn't have the fingers on the inside of the petals and the balls will drop right in without bulging. I use load data for a 1oz load and it works fine and the shell crimps right back up. I have an old Lee loader. I would like to get a 12ga Lee loader but I can wait until things straighten out a little. I only have 400 SG primers on hand any way.

I also just bought a short barreled H&R NEF 12ga with full choke. I want to remove all the choke and use it as a buckshot and maybe buck and ball gun. I bought it for $90 off GB. Nobody else bid on it.

Cool motorcycle by the way.

I use a roll-crimping tool, works very well. Have to practice on some throw-away shells first though. My buck-n-ball load for 12 uses a .690" ball, and then six .375" balls in buffering compound. But, the .375 balls spread so fast that I don't think they are worth the trouble. Even at 25 yards or so the ball hits the paper plate no problem, but I get like maybe two or three "bucks" hit the back-stop, the rest to into outer space, or the next county, or somewhere. Really only a seven to ten yard load, if you want the smaller balls to hit anything. Going to smaller buck doesn't appeal to me, as I don't really think they have much effect on the target. (okay for human targets I guess) An all buckshot load would be a different story, and could be made to pattern well. I've found that a single ball over 120 grains of 2f is best, and is accurate. We don't need no stinking buck shot!

That TT500 is a beast. Could climb trees if you had the skill. Harder to kick over than my 80" flathead Harley. Wheelies in second gear with no slipping of the clutch.

 

[ThomasT]

I have a hand made 410 reloading set up and use a roll crimper on those. I found it works best if I use a propane torch first to get it warmed up and then it makes nice crimps from the start. Heat is the secret to the roll crimp tool. I do a loading block of 25 at a time.

I load a 3 ball load in the 410. I use balls I cast in a Lee mold that come out at .395 and weigh 94grs. At 20 yards all three balls will stay on the flat side of a 2x4 stud and blow the backside off of it. I would use it for deer out to 30 yards in an emergency.

 

[woodnbow]

View attachment 980420 View attachment 980422 View attachment 980423

I'm more of a rifle guy, than a carbine guy, but I didn't really know what else to do with this junker. I've had this for years, and cut it down a few times, (what was I thinking?) and lately decided I might as well make a super-snubbie out of it. I've never been able to get consistent accuracy out if it, so why not a coach-gun, berry picking gun, trekking gun? This is the third time I've made the barrel shorter, she's at 20" now. I thought about a 16" barrel, but could not bring myself to do it.

For those purposes, I found that it shoots a double ball load pretty good. The target above was at 25 yards, you can see the balls have barely separated. The two "black holes" marked in below were from yesterday at about 40 yards, you can see they have separated good at that range. The are low because I had not filed my front sight yet. I have it dialed and filed in now, right where I want it, for the double ball load. That load is a wax wad over the powder, a patched ball, then a felt wad, and the other patched ball. If you ever load double ball, be sure to ram both down at the same time. Do not ram one ball down over the powder, then load the next. They both have to go down at the same time. Unless of course, you want the second ball to rise up from compressed air, and have a 3-4" separation between the balls when you touch her off.

The top target is two rounds of the paper cartridges. Wow they load fast! As you can see they shoot quite high, but that's okay, as they are for super close range/last ditch stand use. I would not shoot them over 25 yards unless I had plenty of them with me. I figure the double ball load is good out to 50 yards at most.

I like it! I’d call it “old ugly” with much affection...

kind of a blackpowder version of an m79 pirate gun. Nasty and brutish but it will give you the warm fuzzies...

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Then Old Ugly it is. (hey we'll make a great pair!) Yep feeling warm and fuzzy in Grizz country is the whole idea of the double ball load, and being unconcerned about those pesky wolves is the idea of the fast-loads. I made a couple of double-ball fast loads today, curious as to if they will print high like the single ball fast-loads, or if they'll have the same POI as the double-ball-patched-ball-load.

Of course, I could just pack a modern gun...but what fun is that?? Got to have some danger and adventure in our lives.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I have a hand made 410 reloading set up and use a roll crimper on those. I found it works best if I use a propane torch first to get it warmed up and then it makes nice crimps from the start. Heat is the secret to the roll crimp tool. I do a loading block of 25 at a time.

I load a 3 ball load in the 410. I use balls I cast in a Lee mold that come out at .395 and weigh 94grs. At 20 yards all three balls will stay on the flat side of a 2x4 stud and blow the backside off of it. I would use it for deer out to 30 yards in an emergency.

Yes exactly, got to get the crimper hot first. I had to figure that out. !!!

 

[ThomasT]

Yes exactly, got to get the crimper hot first. I had to figure that out. !!!

Too bad they don't tell you that when you buy the dern thing. It would have saved me a few funky looking shells. Now they are good from the very first.

 

[Gordon]

View attachment 980506
Here's a little 20gauge Savage Trekking/Wilderness survival gun I made. (yeah it's not black powder, don't tell) Light as a feather, very accurate with Brenekke slugs. I've thought about a double ball black powder load, but I think think the Brenekke's are quite powerful. And of course, with shot loads you can drop grouse and roll bunnies all day.

Oh my ! An AJS cow trailer ! what is the displacement and year ?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Well...actually...it's not an AJS. 1978 TT500 Yamaha. My first motorcycle (built a mini-bike with a bicycle frame and Briggs and Stratton engine before that, in middle school metal shop class) that I got when I was 17yo was a 1952 AJS 500 single, (basket case of course) that I rode all over Los Angeles and for about a year after I moved up here to Eastern Washington state, until I got my first HD. So, the AJS sticker is in honor of that first bike. Did that make sense? And it's a good conversation piece for those young pups on their dirt bikes that have NO idea what an AJS is. (or BSA, or Matchless, or Bultaco, etc.) I guess most of them don't know what a "TT500" is, but they recognize "Yamaha". !!!

 

[ThomasT]

I used to ride dirt bikes back around 1976 (well way before that) but this story was around 1976. I had a Yamaha DT 250 that had been in a house fire that I rebuilt. That was a hill climbing machine. But the place I rode at a fellow would come in pulling a trailer with his Corvette and on the trailer he had another Yamaha that I cannot remember the engine size but it was either a 400 or a 500cc 4 speed single cylinder engine. You may remember the bike because it came with a rotating counter weight to help smooth the engine.

He was afraid of it and just sort of putted around unless going in a straight line. But he would let me ride it because I would ride it for all it had. I would do power slides in second gear and then shift to 3rd gear and from what I was told throw very impressive rooster tails that he liked to watch. Then I would open it up on the straight away for all it had. I loved the power of that bike. I was a crazy 17 year old kid with no fear of death or injury. It was nice to be an immortal.

After a real crash on the road wearing nothing but cut off shorts, no shoes, no shirt, no skin I had an epiphany. I was mortal.

 

[ThomasT]

Here's a little 20gauge Savage Trekking/Wilderness survival gun I made.

I was looking over your post again and looking closer at that picture I realized that I have the same 20ga gun except with full length barrel. I got it from an old man that had it on his wall when a water line broke and flooded his house while they were away on vacation. It was rusted pretty bad on the outside and he sold me the gun for $25. I cleaned it up and just painted the barrel. The receiver cleaned up. I cut the stock off a little and let both young sons use it growing up until they got pump guns and then I added a Pacmeyer recoil pad to bring the length back. It is a light, handy gun.

But my real handy 20 is an H&R/NEF Tamer shotgun. They made those with a matt nickle finish in 410 and 20ga with a goofy "snake charmer" style buttstock that I thought was useless. So I ordered a regular stock for it and weird as it may seem its my favorite SG. And its light weight and has a 3" chamber. Even standard field loads can be bad to shoot. No way will I ever fire a 3" shell. That would be brutal. But its just such a handy little gun. I call it my "Canoe" gun. I just gotta get a Canoe now.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Back in the day, we'd often wear two pairs of jeans at a time. I've survived quite a few crashes. Yeah, I see a lot of new riders wearing shorts these days. Amazing. Bet you learned your lesson!!! Wonder what that bike was...When the TT500 came out around 1974, it was pretty unbeatable in Motocross, with a totally stock engine. Guys would tweak the suspension, but didn't have to touch the engine. Sure it wasn't a 5-speed?

Black powder content: I didn't shoot Old Ugly today, needed a break from cleaning it. !!! Besides making a couple of double ball cartridge loads, I also made two with a 525 grain Minie' in them, then waxed on the outside. That particular slug is too undersized in all three of my .58's, and will often shoot pretty accurately if I dip them in pure bee's wax, but then I get a tumble about one out of three or four. So I'll see if it acts at all like a paper patched bullet, but don't expect success. It is the same slug that I've tried plugging the base with bondo, but same thing, it will show promise, then I get a tumble or a wild flyer. I did try to paper patch them in the traditional way a long time ago. They shed the paper nicely right out of the muzzle, fit the bore perfectly and didn't tumble, but accuracy was only fair at best.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I was looking over your post again and looking closer at that picture I realized that I have the same 20ga gun except with full length barrel. I got it from an old man that had it on his wall when a water line broke and flooded his house while they were away on vacation. It was rusted pretty bad on the outside and he sold me the gun for $25. I cleaned it up and just painted the barrel. The receiver cleaned up. I cut the stock off a little and let both young sons use it growing up until they got pump guns and then I added a Pacmeyer recoil pad to bring the length back. It is a light, handy gun.

But my real handy 20 is an H&R/NEF Tamer shotgun. They made those with a matt nickle finish in 410 and 20ga with a goofy "snake charmer" style buttstock that I thought was useless. So I ordered a regular stock for it and weird as it may seem its my favorite SG. And its light weight and has a 3" chamber. Even standard field loads can be bad to shoot. No way will I ever fire a 3" shell. That would be brutal. But its just such a handy little gun. I call it my "Canoe" gun. I just gotta get a Canoe now.

Yeah that's a Savage 219, and I have a 26" .30-30 barrel that goes with it. I've hunted with it a few times or more, with the .30-30 barrel on it, but never saw anything to shoot at. !! Very nice, light and well balanced with the rifle barrel on it. With the short 20ga barrel on it, it is truly a "featherweight" and nice to carry on a dirt bike.

I also made a trekking gun out of one of those "Companion" 12 ga single shot shotguns that almost fold in half. It's chambered in 3", and only weighs 5.8 pounds. It is truly brutal with 3" slugs, and to get it sighted in required some wool hats, and a couple of shirts bunched/folded up between my shoulder and the butt. And it still hurt bad. "Insane" recoil, which I won't even feel if Grizz is about to get me, but other than that I don't expect I will ever fire it with 3" shells again.

Hey...nothing wrong with getting a canoe. I've often thought that what we often refer to as "canoe guns" might also be, or more accurately be called "Tipi Guns", or "Tent Guns". ?? As their short size, but big caliber would be useful at night when one was in their Tipi or tent and something came scratching on the sides. ?? "Canoe gun" is not a bad term, even though some guys take issue with it. As an experienced canoeist, I know that standing up in a canoe to reload a Brown Bess would not be fun, especially in the old very round bottom canoes they used back in the day.

 

[ThomasT]

I just checked my Gun and it’s a Steven’s 94F. I would love to have a 30-30 barrel for it. It’s a darn good $25 gun too.

I have never been in a canoe but have owned several Jon boats. Lot’s of fun to paddle up shallow creeks and stump filled back water most boaters won’t go into. Love to paddle under a water moccasin laying on a willow limb and saying “you stay up there and I’ll stay down here and we’ll both be okay”. Dang snakes like to panic and fall in your boat. Fun times.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Should have had a Jon-Gun. When that old snake dropped, could have shot him on the fly. Never seen a Water Moccasin, but sometimes you'll see a rattler swimming in a lake around here. (Eastern Washington State)

 

[kBob]

Paint your rattle snake black and give it a mean streak and you got a water moccasin.

remember to shoot BEFORE the snake hits the bottom of the boat......

-kBob

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That's what I was thinking...load her up with a mix of buck and bird shot. And lots of it! What if you had a miss-fire? Dang. Can you eat them Water Moccasins? Rattlesnake is good. Sure don't want to get bit. Had a friend that got bit, and he was still having neurological problems six months later, last I heard.

 

[ThomasT]

Yep Moccasin's are mean. Make 'em mad and they will chase you. I have never heard of anyone eating one. I think after an encounter with one the last thing you think about is making a meal from him.

I'll see your Rattle Snake and raise you one Moccasin.