Why not shorten a PSL to a 16" bbl and add a folding galil-style stock? I mean, 7.62x54r is the cheapest high power rifle round ever. It would be like a russian equivalent to a DSA FAL shorty, only a filled magazine wouldn't cost $20. A high capacity magazine, Kobra red dot, and suppressor would be nice too...
shorty dragunov?
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CYANIDEGENOCIDE
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what you are describing is an ak-47 chambered in 7.62x54. by chopping the barrel and adding a folding stock you are negating most of the benefits of the druganov
Tomac
Member
Just to be clear here, the PSL is not a Dragunov, it's an AK on steroids. The true Dragunov uses a short stroke adjustable gas system w/lightweight fast-fall hammer.
Tomac
NDM-86 Dragunov in .308:
Tomac
NDM-86 Dragunov in .308:
Ash
Member
Yes, yes, yes, the Dragunov owners are right, the PSL is NOT A DRAGUNOV.
Now that we have gotten that out of the way, (it really is obligatory for the Draggers to do this, please understand) let us discuss this.
The PSL, (okay, I have to oblige, too) to begin with, is a DMR just like the SVD. It fulfills the same role with the same reliability, comparable combat accuracy, and equal if not better optics (the Romanian glass is better, but the Russians do provide higher magnification scopes).
First, shortening the barrel can actually make it more accurate, because it reduces flex in the barrel at firing. In any case, this was done on several through InterOrdnance and called Paratrooper models.
Second, carbines firing 7.62x54r have been around for 100 years now. They do work. You will get quite alot of muzzle blast and it may kick pretty firmly, but it can be done.
And, the Soviets did invent a real deal folding stock SVD Dragunov (which has a stamped trigger group). If can be done on the PSL, too. Consider, though, that the rear of the PSL receiver is different and so a block of some sort would have to be made to adapt it to standard AK's. But I doubt it would be very tough to do.
It probably would not cost too much money to do. It would NOT negate the benefits of the PSL as far as accuracy goes, though it would reduce its power (while keeping it considerably higher than 7.62x39)
Ash
Now that we have gotten that out of the way, (it really is obligatory for the Draggers to do this, please understand) let us discuss this.
The PSL, (okay, I have to oblige, too) to begin with, is a DMR just like the SVD. It fulfills the same role with the same reliability, comparable combat accuracy, and equal if not better optics (the Romanian glass is better, but the Russians do provide higher magnification scopes).
First, shortening the barrel can actually make it more accurate, because it reduces flex in the barrel at firing. In any case, this was done on several through InterOrdnance and called Paratrooper models.
Second, carbines firing 7.62x54r have been around for 100 years now. They do work. You will get quite alot of muzzle blast and it may kick pretty firmly, but it can be done.
And, the Soviets did invent a real deal folding stock SVD Dragunov (which has a stamped trigger group). If can be done on the PSL, too. Consider, though, that the rear of the PSL receiver is different and so a block of some sort would have to be made to adapt it to standard AK's. But I doubt it would be very tough to do.
It probably would not cost too much money to do. It would NOT negate the benefits of the PSL as far as accuracy goes, though it would reduce its power (while keeping it considerably higher than 7.62x39)
Ash
CYANIDEGENOCIDE
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there are 2 schools of thought on barrel flex. shorter barrel is stiffer, and a stiff barrel is more accurate, thats why varminters use a bull barrel. OR barrel flex and whip is not a bad thing as long as the barrel flexes and moves consistently. (m91/30 27" barrel)
if you don't have the velocity to get there accuracy doesn't matter. seems most "sniper rifles" use a barrel over 20 inches. the soviets love shorter barrels look at the krinkov, but not at the sacrafice of the true purpose of the weapon. (reaching out to 600m)
in replying to the OP do what you want to your weapons, but personally when i get my paws on something that works well i try not to screw it up. i think you will find you would be happier with an ak than "fixing" a DMR
if you don't have the velocity to get there accuracy doesn't matter. seems most "sniper rifles" use a barrel over 20 inches. the soviets love shorter barrels look at the krinkov, but not at the sacrafice of the true purpose of the weapon. (reaching out to 600m)
in replying to the OP do what you want to your weapons, but personally when i get my paws on something that works well i try not to screw it up. i think you will find you would be happier with an ak than "fixing" a DMR
Ash
Member
"It would be like a russian equivalent to a DSA FAL shorty, only a filled magazine wouldn't cost $20. A high capacity magazine, Kobra red dot, and suppressor would be nice too."
Regarding the first sentence, it would indeed be like a DSA FAL shorty, but much cheaper to feed. That would not be met with an AK, which lacks the power of the full-bore loads. As to the second sentence, there are no high capacity magazines available (but they are with the AK) but the other elements, the red dot and flash suppressor (assuming NOT a sound suppressor, which would not be ideal) are certainly doable.
I'm pretty sure that if he wanted an AK, he would be getting an AK and the question would be moot.
Ash
Regarding the first sentence, it would indeed be like a DSA FAL shorty, but much cheaper to feed. That would not be met with an AK, which lacks the power of the full-bore loads. As to the second sentence, there are no high capacity magazines available (but they are with the AK) but the other elements, the red dot and flash suppressor (assuming NOT a sound suppressor, which would not be ideal) are certainly doable.
I'm pretty sure that if he wanted an AK, he would be getting an AK and the question would be moot.
Ash
Ash
Member
Well, a converted Siaga would be cheaper, but it would also be easier to attach a folding stock. Of course, if the OP already owns said PSL it would be cheaper to modify his own. Of course, he could sell his PSL (assuming he owns one, he may not) and take the funds to pay for the project.
Ash
Ash
GarandOwner
Member
The problem is gun dealers advertise the PSL as a "Romanian Dragunov" Do a search in gunbroker.com and you will see that some sleasy dealers even include a picture of a REAL Dragunov in their posts. 
As an Ex-Dragunov owner, it angers me to see people trying to pass of the PSL as a "Romanian version of the Russian SVD" 
As an Ex-Dragunov owner, it angers me to see people trying to pass of the PSL as a "Romanian version of the Russian SVD" Gene_WI
Member
There is a para version of the PSL that is available on the US market. It has the short barrel, all you have to do is get a new stock.
Ash
Member
In reality, the PSL IS the Romanian version of the DMR, which is what a Dragunov is. I find it amazing that folks get so worked up about this, as if the PSL is some great threat. Even the most casual inspection shows the PSL is not a Dragunov. And yes, there is a gunbroker seller who does show a real SVD in the photographs. But an even more casual inspection of other PSL listings shows this is a fraud.
In any case, SVD owners know for a fact that PSL's are not interchangeable. PSL owners aren't going to waste the money on real SVD mags.
In the end, it seems more an effort to justify the extremely high costs of real SVD or NDM's, or even Tiger knock-offs. There is no threat, for those who know can tell the difference. Those who don't would never pay the three to nine grand for a fake. And reality, as unfortunate as it might be, is that the PSL is widely distributed and currently very successful in the DMR role, doing the same service in probably more theaters than the real SVD. In no way does that take away from the value of a real SVD, which is based on scarcity.
Ash
In any case, SVD owners know for a fact that PSL's are not interchangeable. PSL owners aren't going to waste the money on real SVD mags.
In the end, it seems more an effort to justify the extremely high costs of real SVD or NDM's, or even Tiger knock-offs. There is no threat, for those who know can tell the difference. Those who don't would never pay the three to nine grand for a fake. And reality, as unfortunate as it might be, is that the PSL is widely distributed and currently very successful in the DMR role, doing the same service in probably more theaters than the real SVD. In no way does that take away from the value of a real SVD, which is based on scarcity.
Ash
Ash
Member
No, but you can call a Camero a Pony.
Ash
Ash
I like the converted saiga .308 idea... With all the savings I could stock up on .308 so much, ammo price wouldn't be so bad. Not to mention the availability and quality of commercial U.S. ammo. Thing is, I already have an Antlantic Arms STG 2000 AK but the furniture isn't AK compatible. I wish I could buy the I.O. folder for it, but I can't. I really wanted something like an AK version (cheaper, that is) of a DSA FAL SA58 shorty. Could you get a .308 silencer on that?
Ash
Member
The PSL isn't the equivalent of a kit car. That would be reserved for a Tiger - kind of the real thing but not, just a hunting sporter that uses many of the same parts. Okay, so a Tiger is based on a Dragunov, so that might not be fair, more like a 4 cylinder Mustang with a 5.0 on the outside. Indeed, the PSL is likely distributed in more places in the world than the SVD, regardless of what SVD guys would like to think it is a real DMR that hangs with the SVD without any trouble, and both rifles get their behinds beat by a Savage 110 sporter.
That said, the Saiga folder would do very well in the AK version of the DSA and would be a very economical route to take.
Ash
That said, the Saiga folder would do very well in the AK version of the DSA and would be a very economical route to take.
Ash
Grantman
Member
As people have mentioned previously, the psl is basically an enlarged ak, and the ndm-86 is a dragunov copy. The only true dragunov is the Izhmash manufactured tigr and svd. The Chinese reverse engineered a copy of the dragunov, therefore, it is not a dragunov either if a person is being nit picky. If I churned out a copy of a mustang from scrap it wouldn't be a mustang, just a copy of one. If mustang gave me all the plans, moulds and licenses to me to manufacture a mustang - then it would be a mustang. I'm not going to get all excited over arguing over teensy details about what to call what but you can't blame true dragunov owners for getting irritated with psl's etc being exalted with the label 'dragunov'.
As for barrel length, the svd was always designed to have a full length 620mm barrel, nearly half a century later it is still designed to use the full length 620mm barrel. For the sake of convenience Izhmash produced a carbine 530mm barrel for paratroops and civilian use, retaining the full length barrel for the svd. Obviously they felt the 620mm barrel was better suited for sniping than the short barrel or they would have done away with full length barrel altogether and at least saved weight and space. The svd was designed the way it was for a reason. To even suggest the carbine version is as accurate as or more accurate than the svd is basically saying Evgeny Dragunov didn't know what he was doing and Izhmash are idiots for keeping the svd at full length.
Anyway after months of reading up about dragunovs I bought myself a new tigr, full length 620mm barreled version here in NZ and am waiting for a psop 8x scope before I do some shooting.
As for barrel length, the svd was always designed to have a full length 620mm barrel, nearly half a century later it is still designed to use the full length 620mm barrel. For the sake of convenience Izhmash produced a carbine 530mm barrel for paratroops and civilian use, retaining the full length barrel for the svd. Obviously they felt the 620mm barrel was better suited for sniping than the short barrel or they would have done away with full length barrel altogether and at least saved weight and space. The svd was designed the way it was for a reason. To even suggest the carbine version is as accurate as or more accurate than the svd is basically saying Evgeny Dragunov didn't know what he was doing and Izhmash are idiots for keeping the svd at full length.
Anyway after months of reading up about dragunovs I bought myself a new tigr, full length 620mm barreled version here in NZ and am waiting for a psop 8x scope before I do some shooting.
DWARREN123
Member
Ruin the resell value, buy what you want.
mainmech48
Member
There was, briefly, a shortened commercial version of the Dragunov imported from Russia called the "Tiger". IIRC, it could be had in either 7.62x54 or 7.62x51 NATO. It had the true Dragunov short-piston action and scope set-up but the barrel was 18 or 20". I'm not sure how many made it here before the "Sporting Purposes" agreement took effect, but I'd bet there weren't many. I've been told that they cut the barrel back to make it handier and more attractive to potential buyers as a hunting weapon. I can't recall if anyone implied there was any marked affect, positive or negative, on accuracy in tests or revues.
Grantman
Member
The "tigr" generally comes with the shorter 530mm barrel unless special ordered from the factory with the full length barrel. The US only got a few of these tigr's before the flow was stopped. The tigr is simply the civilian version of the svd. The parts are identical between the two except for the barrel (unless the tigr came with full length 620mm barrel), adjustable gas system is absent on the tigr, the tigr comes with a 5 round rather than 10 round magazine, earlier svd's had 'lightning cuts' in the receiver to lighten them and come with a muzzle flash hider. Also, both the tigr and svd used to have ribbed receiver covers, but that has now been changed to smooth cover for the tigr and I am unsure whether or not the svd changed also. The svds is basically the 530mm barrel svd but the 'military version' and has folding butstock.
Dragunov.net has a lot of good info
Dragunov.net has a lot of good info
Ash
Member
The Tigr is not an SVD, just as a Remington 700 is not an M24. It is a sporter version using the same receiver as a Dragunov, but it isn't marked as an SVD, uses a different gas regulator, different butt stock, different barrel, no bayo lug, no flash-hider, and a different rear sight. While the Tigr is more Dragunov than a PSL, a PSL is more DMR than a Tigr. The m24 is made in the same factory as the 700, but a 700 it is not.
Semantics, of course, but a spade is a spade after all.
Ash
Semantics, of course, but a spade is a spade after all.
Ash
Funderb
Member
NO NO NO NO NO.
Absolutely not!
Absolutely not!
Grantman
Member
The 620mm barrel dragunov tigr is not a dragunov svd mainly in Label. They both use all identical parts other than what I mentioned earlier, essentially, a 620mm barreled tigr is an svd in every regard except for the differences above that I mentioned - same barrel, same receiver, same butstock and furniture if the tigr is supplied with the polymer set, same gas system but without option to increase flow, same bolt, trigger assembly - essentially the same gun manufactured by the same factory using the same parts but labelled tigr. The US tigrs only come in carbine 530mm barrel length which fundamentally alters it from the svd, but has the same length barrel as the paratrooper "svds".
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