Super-Shorty .308s
- Thread starter Nightcrawler
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MTMilitiaman
Member
Fine. Your funeral.
Those shorty .308s look neato. Not sure I would want to light one off in a confined space unless I needed too, but slamming a 20 round mag of .308s into a rifle that small would be a trip, would get lots of attention at the range, and would offer deceptively great firepower for the size of the package. I just saw this beaut and think it might actually have the upper hand over a DS Arms FAL carbine right now as my next rifle purchase:
http://www.jldenter.com/JLD Enterprises, Inc_files/ptr91-KTFO-600.jpg
MachIVshooter
Member
How 'bout 30? Very easy to modify 30 rd. G-3 mags to fit the AR-10. My SHTF modified 30 rounders for my AR-10A2C are loaded with ten each of 110 gr. V-max, 150 gr. FMJ and 162 gr. A-P. I'll take that over any 5.56 rifle. I have a mini-14 with 30 roudners as well. Believe me, the difference down range will make anyone a believer.
Just talk to a few soldiers. Most who encoutered a determined enemy wish they were shooting .30 caliber guns. I have friends that recently returned from Iraq. Concensus is that when the Insurgests shot up with adrenaline, M-4's might as well have been bb guns.
artherd
member
Eh, I doubt it, the 77gr OTM loads are pretty darned good. Nothing is a lightswitch either. Read Blackhawk Down, for an account of ***full-auto Mk19 40mm grenades*** failing to stop a crazy woman. I'll take a .223 that fragments bodatiously over a .30cal FMJ that icepicks anyday of the week.
What else but an M4 with an ACOG is highly effective and accurate at anywhere from contact distance, to 600+meters?
Not these cut .308s that would be almost as dangerous to the shooter as the shoot-ee withought hearing protection indoors?
If you're going for a suppressed gun, might as well go .300Whisper anyway too.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I want one, but like I said before, I don't forsee grabbing it in anger unless I have nothing else but sticks. Same as I wouldn't grab my M82A1 first if I heard a rustle in the bushes.
Nightcrawler
Member
A lot of things. Though I wouldn't consider 5.56mm out of a 14.5" barrel to be particularly effective at 600+ meters.
artherd
member
Name one? I honestly cannot think of something as felxible in practical uses as the M4. I wouldn't want to be hit by a 77gr OTM at 600m either.
What do these shorty .308s look like at 600m after starting off at 2300fps with 147grs? Area any of them MOA accurate? What ammo will they even feed, FMJs?
Nightcrawler
Member
Bias? You really think an M4 is any better or worse than, say, a Sig 550? A G36? A Daewoo? Or any of the vast variety of 5.56mm rifles out there? Most of which can be fitted with rail handguards now for bolting on all the stuff (I'm making an assumption that that's what you mean by flexible).
But then, so can FALs, G3s, M14s, Galils, and even AKs. If the M4 is your preferance, that's fine, but saying it's the absolute best is going to bring down some debate.
FALs, G3s, and M14s typically feed all manner of JHP and JSP ammunition. MOA accurate? At 600 meters? If you can do that with a box stock M4, good for you.
Well, I wouldn't want to be hit in the crotch by a 5-year old with a wiffle bat (again), but that doesn't mean it's the best choice for the battlefield.
I'm not saying a 5.56mm bullet at 600 meters won't ruin your day, but, it depends on how effective you're talking about. At 500 meters, a 62 grain 5.56mm bullet is going 1,600 feet per second, give or take, out of a full (20-24") length tube.
The 77 grain will hold velocity better due to better momentum, but a 77 grain bullet isn't exactly a heavyweight in the world of rifle bullets. In 7.62mm, 175 grain is now preferred for long ranged shooting (military sniper ammunition).
Thus, if you're going to use 5.56mm rifles for your designated marksman project, because, say, they're in the system and that's what you've got, then a 20" barrel, good optic, and the 77 grain bullet is probably your best bet to fit the bill.
Now, if you're going to start from scratch on this, I'd personally prefer a 7.62mm weapon for this role, but that's my army and not yours. Something can be said for ammunition compatibility, but this depends on your logistics.
However, NONE of this has anything to do with this discussion on the applications of short barrel .308 rifles. Just something to consider before this degenerates into an ARFcom style ".308s are stupid, get an M4" thread.
One of the things I would like to do most in the world would be to have the money to fly people I meet on the internet out here to Vegas for some informal shooting. In particular, I would love to see just how many people can place one in five rounds on an IDPA silhouette at a measured 600 yards from a practical field position, using their "SHTF" rifle as it sits right this minute using ammo they own at this very second under a reasonable time constraint (five shots in one minute ?). No bench, no sandbags. But, at a known distance on a one way rifle range. I am probably just a cynic, but I bet very few people could do very well. Some however almost certainly could put most if not all shots on the target. So, next, I would like to then shoot a course of fire at unknown ranges, in varied terrain again from field postions. This time you have to estimate the range, know the dope for your rifle, and get into the steadiest position possible (which is almost never prone with a bipod because of vegatation and terrain between you and the target). I think the few that could hit on the regular range would now be severly challenged.
Then I would like the participants to start a thread about how important they think their SHTF rifle's performance is at 600 yards.
Then I would like the participants to start a thread about how important they think their SHTF rifle's performance is at 600 yards.
MTMilitiaman
Member
ROFLMAO!
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Anyone who calls any short barreled 5.56mm a genuine 600 meter rifle is probably just kidding themselves.
Nightcrawler
Member
What I don't understand is how a happy little discussion about the possible applications of sub-16" barreled .308 carbines evolved into a debate about the 600 meter performance of 5.56mm.
I don't think anyone suggested that an 11" .308 is going to be your best bet at 600 meters. I don't think an 11" anything should be your first pick if you're going into a very long ranged engagement.
But we all digress I guess. Yes. What a mess!
I'll stop now.
I don't think anyone suggested that an 11" .308 is going to be your best bet at 600 meters. I don't think an 11" anything should be your first pick if you're going into a very long ranged engagement.
But we all digress I guess. Yes. What a mess!
I'll stop now.
odysseus
Member
You know I keep hearing about some concensus on this, but never have really seen true word or evidence of this. BB guns? I think that is a bit of an overstatement. I think another box-o-truth is needed... errr maybe not!
MrAcheson
Member
Hey, if you don't mind having a rifle that isn't good for anything other than novelty then go buy a 12" .308. The barrel is too short for a target gun. The muzzle blast is going to be damn near crippling even in the best of conditions. I'd never want to shoot one indoors, that is for sure.
Hmmm, on second thought maybe it isn't completely worthless. Want the range to yourself? Unlimber one of those and shoot a magazine. Chances are you will be alone in short order.
Hmmm, on second thought maybe it isn't completely worthless. Want the range to yourself? Unlimber one of those and shoot a magazine. Chances are you will be alone in short order.
Father Knows Best
Member
Right on, Nightcrawler! I say, get what you want. It's your money. Personally, I think the shorty SA58 looks like a lot of fun. I'd love to shoot one. So if you get one, please drop me a line. I'll bring the ammo and post-shoot beer, and any toys of mine that you want to try out.
Say, where in Tennessee are you? Anywhere near Memphis?
As any thread approaches n pages, the probably of the topic diverging to the SHTF/long-range performance of the .223 approaches 1.
You've been here long enough. You know this.
Personally, I carry a .470 shell casing filled with holy water on a necklace. Any time someone brings the .223 up, I start splashing them while shouting "The Power of Capstick Compels You!" Seems to work.
rbernie
Contributing Member
LOL!!! <wiping tears from eyes> That, my friend, was worth the price of admission. Thank you......
Domino
Member
What ammunition are you shooting? That is a good bit lower than 2600 fps I get out of an SKS with Barnual 122 HP. Even out of an AK it is consistant at 2450 fps.
I remember seeing similar numbers when reading an American Rifleman article that was comparing 7.62X39 to 6.8 SPC. They tried to say that 6.8 has more energy out of a 12" barrel than 7.62X39 out of a 16" barrel; which I guess would be kinda true if you were getting 2200 fps out of an AK. That is simply not the case with Russian ammunition, it seems that many find the numbers that best fit their arguement.
Nightcrawler, I shot a G3K. It was pretty fricking cool.
Honestly, muzzle blast was absurd. But mostly to the folks off to the side. The only really bad thing was that I absolutely hate the HK collapsible stock. I shoot with a really snug cheek weld, and that is just not comfy.
Short .308s are groovy.
Honestly, muzzle blast was absurd. But mostly to the folks off to the side. The only really bad thing was that I absolutely hate the HK collapsible stock. I shoot with a really snug cheek weld, and that is just not comfy.
Short .308s are groovy.
Beren
Moderator Emeritus
Having just finished the long journey required to SBR an AR-15 lower receiver for some 5.56mm/6.8mm SPC configurations, I now find myself tempted to do the same for an AR-10. Oh, and yes, what fun is an SBR'd 308 without a suppressor to go along with it? Or perhaps even an integrally suppressed upper? If you're gonna buy tax stamps, buy a book of them.
http://www.gem-tech.com/tprs.html
http://www.gem-tech.com/tprs.html
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