Shot placement

[Kodiaz]

Well I'm going to the range in a bit I still don't use many silhouette targets. I prefer the large orange diamond with four more smaller diamonds in the corners.



What targets are you using when you got to the range. Are you aware of the relationship of the high score ring on a silhouette to the organs located under the high score ring.

http://www.innerbody.com/htm/body.html
Human Anatomy Online

Gentleman the human anatomy. Some of you will have targets that have the high score ring over the vital organs(Heart). But most of us will have a target with the high score ring over the stomach. Some of us know that that useless xring is on the stomach and disregard it. We aim high of that ring we awant our bullets going to the only place that will give us a sure stop on the torso.

That place is the heart and the stop may not be immediate. Lung shot you

may day but you probably will be in the fight when you expire. Gut shot if

you don't get hit anymore you will probably live. Shot in the arteries in your

torso you will bleed out eventually, you will not be out of the fight though.

The liver you will die a miserable death in total agony but you will probably

get the rest of your shots off. A shot through the eyes/nose is an instant

shutdown.

The only place to put a bullet to quickly put a man down in the torso is the heart. There are countless reports of men taking several torso shots and still staying in the fight. In Miami the FBI tried to catch 2 bankrobbers (86 I think). They found the guys and there was a firefight. One of these guys was shot in the side of his torso witnesses saw him squirting blood while he proceeded to kill 3 or 4 FBI agents. This man was bleeding to death while killing some of the most highly trained police we have.

 

[Ryder]

What targets are you using when you got to the range. Are you aware of the relationship of the high score ring on a silhouette to the organs located under the high score ring.

It varies for me. A lot of people don't clean up after themselves and leave their targets tacked up. I use those when they are available. Most of the silhouette targets left behind on the 25 yards range have no holes in the head. Free targets is a good thing

I bring along 50 yard small bore rifle targets to shoot at 25 yards with my pistol for marksmanship practice. These have 1/2 inch rings and the bull is small in diameter. I scored a gazillion of them for a good price at a gun show a longtime back so that's just what I have that's handy.

For close up combat/speed training I like paper plates since the whiteness of them lets me see the holes appear. I have considered using anatomical silhouettes but my thoughts along those lines would be to use the typical silhouette with the anatomicals printed on the reverse side. Then after shooting you'd flip it over to see how you scored. I have never paid any attention to the rings printed on a silhouette.

In a real shooting I don't know that aiming for a specific organ is going to be any more suddenly effective as visualizing and penetrating through to the spine. The fact that we are training on two dimensional targets for a three dimensional application really complicates matters.

 

[Kodiaz]

Good point I use the free targets too.

Oh BTW for all the guys here like me that grew up shooting and hunting and have put several thousand rounds downrange over our lives and were taught by our veteran daddies and uncles where to aim on a man, This thread really isn't for you.


This is for the guy or girl who's on their first gun or didn't grow up shooting, or has been shooting but has been focused on the improperly placed silhouette xring.

This is for the person who will deploy their concealed weapon shoot someone in the x ring but will not stop the badguy becasue he has an easily survivable stomach wound.

This is also for people who have misconceptions regarding stopping power and the meaning of shot placement.

Shot placement is not hitting the torso. Shot placement is putting a hole in someone's heart.

Well I'm sure there are many of you here that are better shots than me. And I'm sure that there are some here who have had to use their weapon or have received training regarding individuals being shot and continuing to fight.

 

[RyanM]

The absolute best hit is one either to the brain or spinal cord. If you nail the spinal cord, even if the bullet went through the stomach first, chances are good of an instant stop. You'll notice a lot of newer targets have a stripe down the middle, for the spine. The best overall choice, though, is to aim for a triangle formed by the nipples and the top of the sternum. That area is where most of the really vital organs and blood vessels are located. It's really hard to aim for the spine, since it's in the back.

Headshots can be nice, but they don't always work. There's a lot of bone in the skull, and the brain is only located in the upper half. Which means the eyes and above. Of course, you've got the thick forehead bone immediately above the eyes, which can deflect lower velocity rounds. A bullet through the nasal cavity may be good, but if it goes through at too much of an angle, it'll miss the brain stem. The blunt trauma may be enough to knock the guy out for a few minutes, but you can't count on anything less than an immediately fatal wound stopping someone.

Just like there's no magic bullet, there's no magic shot placement. Just need to shoot the best you can with the best equipment you can, and hope it's enough.

 

[Kodiaz]

+1 Just because you've hit your target on a vital area doesn't mean the fight is over.

 

[GoBrush]

I agree with your thought procees on placing your shots to make instant stops or atleast increase your chances.

However although many professionals argue either for or against either point shooting or aimed shots both groups agree that when the bullets start flying that adrenalin can and does effect accuracy. My point in my opinion is to train for center of what ever mass is presented as a target whether that be a chest or head etc. to reduce the possiblity of missing the target. I shoot 200-300 rounds a month and have taken mulitple handgun courses and concider myself to be in the top percentile on speed and accuracy compared to other shooters. Since I have never been in a shooting and hope I never am I dont know what effect adrenalin or the stress of the moment might cause. Based on your discussion on shot placement and mine on adrenalin and stress I know there are trade offs when it comes to possible one shot stops and each shooter needs to decide for themselves.

I dont disagree with you I am just saying there are other factors to concider.

A hit to the center of mass is better than a miss to the heart?

Answer for yourself

Good Thread

 

[Kodiaz]

I agree I just my COM up to the sternum to me the place where I point my gun
before I line up the sights is the sternum.

I expect to agree with nearly everything said on this thread. We each have our own plan for any particular threat. I only opened this thread for people who's experience is limited. So they can find the flaws in their planning.

 

[mete]

The upper torso has more vital stuff than the center of torso.There is no sure thing . Shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat !!

 

[Nightdiver]

Since I have never been in a shooting and hope I never am I dont know what effect adrenalin or the stress of the moment might cause. Based on your discussion on shot placement and mine on adrenalin and stress I know there are trade offs when it comes to possible one shot stops and each shooter needs to decide for themselves.

Several years ago, as an army MP, we had to qualify with the M1911 .45 acp.
Some of us were able to shoot an "assumed perfect" score,( big ragged hole COM, no way to score individual hits). Noting our smug attitudes, our instructor had us place 1 5 rd. mag at the seven yard line and back up 100 yards. He told us we had 20 seconds to run to the firing line, lock and load a mag, and engage the target with all rounds. Needless to say, our "perfect scores went all to s#@t. Oue instructor then said "that is the stress factor".

I considered a value lesson.

 

[David N]

Apex of the Triangle?

Thank you for this thread, I'm not only a beginning shooter but also never had a "father figure" to teach me anything about guns so I'm doing the best I can to teach myself.

I thought I read in a thread similar to this a while back that the "cardio-vascular triangle" ( "CVT" ) was defined with the apex or top point of the triangle as the "Adams's apple" and the other two points being the nipples. This makes more sense to me as it includes the trachea or "windpipe" and a near miss to either side could open one of the carotid arteries. Still, it is often stated that a direct shot to the heart may not stop an attacker for the 15 or 30 seconds the brain survives on the oxygen it still has - I've heard both figures mentioned. Thus, in the same or another previous thread there was great emphasis put on being able to make a head shot. Since AOL is notoriously anti-gun, I like to collect their discs and use them as roughly head sized targets.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just recalling a couple points I've seen on THR the past couple years I've been studying - yes, STUDYING, one of the most useful self defence sites I've found.

THANK YOU for the link to the anatomy website, it beats walking to the library.

 

[Kodiaz]

Your welcome. I posted a similar thread about accuracy a month or two ago. There someone spoke less than highly about my choice of targets(orange diamond sighting in target with 4 more orange diamonds in the corners). Where I brought up the point about mostsilhouette's having the high score zone in the wrong place.

I grew up shooting and I also study this forum for ways to improve myself as a shooter. And especially concerning self defense. I am no gunfighter nor do I aspire to be one. I like to learn from other people's mistakes as much as I can.
Especially in the case of using a firearm for self defense becasue you don't get to make too many mistakes and live to learn the lessons that they teach.

 

[Cut Throat Job]

i'd say anything above the mouth would be effective. if it hits in the nose and somehow doesnt completely kill, it may drown them in blood. if it shoots them in the eye, it may not completely kill, but at least the victim will have limited vision giving you that much more time to finish the job.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Good thread!
When I went through the police academy, they taught us to shoot for high 8 ring, since that's where the heart is, roughly. This was after initial exposure to shooting, of course. I recall the nipple/sternum triangle, and they also gave us an inverted triangle for head shots. The base of the triangle goes through the eyes, and the point centers in the nose. Not a guaranteed stop(nothing is, as others have mentioned), but the reasoning was that most attackers would be slowed by shots to these areas, given good expanding ammo and solid hits. The oft repeated lesson was to continue firing until the threat stopped.

 

[Kramer Krazy]

I prefer to shoot at these targets from www.letargets.com

Sometimes I get some really strange looks at the range. BTW, the second one has a "T" on the guy's face for the most effective spots to hit him for "brain shots".....Hmmm...reminds me....I need to order some more.

 

[outofbattery]

The thing with silhouette targets is that most people who are shooting and being shot at don't just stand there with their arms by their sides! I have made my own targets from newsprint with amorphous shapes spraypainted on to simulate someone behind a car door,partially behind a wall,turned sideways etc. and practice going to COM of them from the draw.

 

[pax]

Kramer Krazy ~

IMO, the target on the right is a no-shoot at the moment the picture was taken. Look at it: he's got a SA gun and his finger is on the trigger. No matter how good of a shot you are, even if you hit perfectly within the golden T, with a handgun you cannot guarantee that his hand will not flex when he dies.

In that situation, you would wait until he gestures with the gun, or moves the muzzle at least slightly away from the hostage.

Again, just my opinion. Sure I'm going to catch flak for it too ...

pax

 

[Thain]

I'll second that, target two is a bad shoot in the photo...

Good topic, and I'll check out that web site.

 

[Kramer Krazy]

Kramer Krazy ~

IMO, the target on the right is a no-shoot at the moment the picture was taken.

I agree, but those are the only two targets that they offer for more common hostage situations. They also have targets of people hiding behind a couch and such, but I liked these two targets to practice head-shots (sometimes I like to act like I'm in the movies and shoot the gun out of the hand of the guy in the first target). I've often wanted to get a standard B-27 and place it over one that shows the vital organs. That way I can see if the shots hit anything "important".

Some of their targets I really don't care for.....like the woman police officer. I just wouldn't want to go to a public range and shoot at a picture of a cop. I also don't care much for the pregnant woman, but....she is holding a gun. Fortunately, she looks to be in her 9th month, so I guess it may be a good target for law enforcement to take her out, but be able to save the child by keeping her on life support until they can take the child.

 

[pax]

Kramer ~

And they are good targets for that -- as long as you're careful to remember the ROE you will want to use in real life. At any rate, they are a lot better for visualization than a plain piece of cardboard.

Somewhere, once upon a time, I have seen a (cartoon? photo? -- people shaped anyway) target which had greyed out ("invisible" at distance) markings which were the vital organs themselves -- not simply a geometric shape, but medically correct.

Also, again somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory, I have seen a tee shirt which had all the organs marked on it, from front, side & back. Obviously not for shooting at, but very good for visualizing what you would hit from various angles.

Anyone got a link to either of the above dimly-remembered items?

pax

 

[crofrog]

I prefer these. The lines outlining the vitals are not actually as visible as they show in that picture. The disappear by 5 feet even in good lighting.

 

[crofrog]

Somewhere, once upon a time, I have seen a (cartoon? photo? -- people shaped anyway) target which had greyed out ("invisible" at distance) markings which were the vital organs themselves -- not simply a geometric shape, but medically correct.

I didn't read your post before I posted but I imagine that's what you where talking about.

 

[pax]

Yes, that looks familiar. I can't read the company name on the pic really well -- got a link?

thanks,

pax

 

[Kramer Krazy]

All of these are from www.letargets.com

 

[Kodiaz]

Now those are some excellent targets.

 

[Hardtarget]

As I understand it, the only sure stop is to cut the brain stem. It's a rifle shot...good penetration a must and heavy wound channel to ensure destrution of the stem. There is no flinch, twitch or jerk. Everything just stops and he drops. Not something you would expect from me..(the shot,I mean) with a handgun. Under stress I probably couldn't do it with a rifle.

I did make my own targets also. Mostly because I felt all were too big. Mine are much reduced and shorter. I also put in line to indicate heart/lung ect. I don't use them much any more.

The targets I use now are just a 12x18 inch retangle set verticle. Hold a piece of cardboard up to your chest with the top even with your collar bone.If you shoot at the top half...you're in the zone.
Mark.