Specific Hypothetical: Luby's or bank robbery type situation: CNS or Vitals shot?

[rduckwor]

"Several times, including this week, I've shot an IDPA stage where, from the peanut gallery, I thought I'd go for head shots, but once I was behind the gun that head suddenly looked a lot smaller, and I went for center-of-mass after all."

Amen!

RMD

 

[30 cal slob]

i don't like the idea of taking a static shot from 15 yards if i can get closer.

if you're within 20 yards of your adversary, shoot on the move.

advance towards target and shoot @ the torso repeatedly until the perp goes down.

this requires training and practice to hit the target reliably and it's not taught in a lot of basic pistol classes and it's not allowed in most civilian ranges.

this accomplishes two things:

1) help you close the distance

and simultaneously

2) engage the target

also, i somewhat doubt that a perp is going to sit still during a gun fight. he's gonna be moving and so should the armed citizen/responder.

 

[Mandolin]

There is no cover in a resturant, unless you stack up a ton of tables and that isn't happening. Also, why move away while firing? You'r increasing the distance you have to fire and might trip. Advanceing alows you to see what you'r about to step on. I'd rather not trip over an old lady in the middle of a gunfight

 

[sherman123]

I've seen a few comments about shooting while advancing forward on the target. Not to challenge this idea as I have limited knowledge but wouldn't that make you an easier target to the goblin/goblins you're shooting at? In the pistol classes I took we practiced shooting on the move but we were also told repeatedly "distance is your best friend" This would leave me to believe backpeddling or standing stationary(if you're behind him and he doesn't see you) may be your best bets at surviving and stopping the threat. Honestly the only time I would've planned on advancing forward while shooting is if cover was ahead of me and I needed to get out of the line of fire.

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

I've thought a lot about a situation like that myself. Especially something like a bank, or a restaurant. Someplace with lots of people, indifferent concealment, and very little I'd trust as cover. In the nightmare scenario, the robber shoots a bank teller or cashier or just somebody in their way, or a random person to make the point that "they're serious". At which point, it's anyone's guess whether he'll decide to keep shooting or not, and you kind of have to assume he will.

I think I'd have to align with the COM crowd on this. I'm moderately proficient, and usually calm under stress, but mental calm and physical calm are not the same; I anticipate being able to think, but I'm afraid my hands won't be as steady as normal. Since this is probable, I want to go for COM shots, and close the distance, and keep putting bullets into the target until the target is not a threat. Maybe that means he drops the gun and runs. Maybe that means a sucking chest wound and a muffled *thump* as he hits the ground. Don't care which.

Yeah, there are problems with the "close the distance" thing. I'm already a big target, and I'm just gonna get bigger as I get closer. That sucks, but it's a two-way street. Going with the assumption that he wasn't looking at me when I started moving, that should give me enough of an advantage to get several yards closer and get several shots in before he can react. If I am lucky, that will be enough. If I am not lucky, at least I still have the opportunity to get some rounds into him before I get tagged.

I guess the question for me is, "Walking Fire" or "Bum Rush"?

Walking fire, that is, moving forward at a walk while shooting (incidentally, I hear that sort of walking forward using the sides of your feet can give you better upper-body stability for fire) has the advantage of using my gun effectively for a longer time, getting more shots in. The disadvantage is that he can do the same if not quickly incapacitated.

Bum rush has a special attraction for me; I'm a big, heavy man and there are very few people on earth outside of Sumo rings that can remain standing after a diving tackle from me. The problem is that if I'm rushing him, I'm not shooting (because I know I can't control my fire at a run). So, should I fire several times first, then rush? I don't know. If my first shots don't put him down, that rush is going to leave me open to return fire.

I'm thinking it's probably a judgment call to be made at the moment. If it looks like he's likely to return fire before I can reach him with a rush, I would keep up the walking fire. If he looked rattled, but still upright, and unlikely to get his weapon in play before I could cross the remaining distance, I would try the rush for an immediate end to the threat.

That's my take, anyway.

 

[GEM]

I'm sorry we went to Luby's last night! BTW, I'm with the crowd that thinks trying the precision shot into the head while in the chaotic stampede of a Luby's shootout is probably not the best idea compared to the COM.

 

[leadcounsel]

I agree, COM double taps are your best bet. Watch your background. Move closer after the first hits and score follow up shots.

Be aware that the perp likely has helpers, inside or outside. Robbers tend to work together for these hits.

Also, be aware that cops won't know you from the bad guys. Alert them smartly using the phone and non-threatening unarmed posture.

While it isn't a caliber war, the 9mm is plenty effective if using jhp self defense ammo. The reason it is ineffective is because the Army uses fmj.

 

[travellingJeff]

If I really felt that his death was the only acceptible solution, I'd probably start shooting him, COM, while moving towards him. I know it sounds antithetical to everything we've been taught in defensive schools, but I've got 15 rounds of 10mm to work with. I'll "distract" him with the "only" COM shots, as I close the distance and prepare for the head shot to finish the thing. That's probably not what I'd do in almost any situation other than my decision that "HE MUST DIE". Improbable. Sometimes, charging the bad guy is the only way to win. Not many battles were won by guys slinking out the back door.

 

[GRIZ22]

And I think past 16-18 yards, somewhere in there, nearly everyone would try for a vitals shot, as that's a long ways to make a hit on a smalleish target with a carry gun, unless you're a real crack shot IDPA whiz with a 5" 1911 and nerves of steel.


You need to aim at the largest target in a gun fight to inflict damage on the BG ASAP. Counting on being cool enough to take the head shot is folly unless you're a highly trained SAS or Delta operator.

Being an IDPA whiz is good but that doesn't always translate into superb gunfighting ability. Things change drastically when the target is shooting back. It's one of those "been there, done that" things that is hard to verbalize unless you've done it. The skill to hit targets accurately and fast is about 5% of a gunfight. 95% of it is in your head.

 

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors/// Say you must shoot, no question of getting out.

I would aim COM (center of mass), after first COM hit follow up with another two COM. Only then would I change position and that would be to move to cover, while covering BG. Then if still needed take head shot.

Remember (no offence intended ) You do not want to be only person holding firearm when another CCW,security ,,or LEO arrives in this sitituation.// I.E.: Running ,screaming, alarms ,man down, blood .....YOU seeming to be in control of room with gun drawn. This is a lot to take in at one glance for anyone, even trained personel.

It would have to be truly do or die for me to chance all this. /// Anyone with CCW or LEO training have any ideas on what shooter should do after BG is down and out?

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't see much variation whether I'm carrying a compact or a full-size, he has already shot or I reasonably think he's going to, whether it's 5 yards or 25. COM shots are statistically the most likely to stop the threat the fastest. I would rather have my shots choosing between the heart, the lungs, and the spine than looking for the brain stem. I save head shots for failure drills, if at all.

 

[RuncibleHC]

How 'bout I just kick off my shoes, sneak up behind him in my stocking feet, and THEN point-black empty the whole magazine into his brain stem?

 

[Birdmang]

In the words of my buddy Mel Gibson "aim small, miss small."

 

[Double Naught Spy]

A miss is still a miss, even if you just miss by a little bit. Since we are citing catch phrases from noted fictional gun experts, let me draw your attention to the quote of legendary actor Don Adams and his oft proclaimed "Missed me by that much" which was stated while holding his thumb and index finger 1-2" apart.

"Aim small hit small" makes much better sense.

 

[NMGonzo]

At 15 yards ... standing still ... mmhm

The other problem is how many people are around, and beyond the target.

Ideally I would empty the magazine on the ribcage, so if there is a bullet going out the other direction, it would be with the least amount of energy.

11 rounds of roundball ... that guy would have to be in fine shape not to drop.

Then it comes the knife ...

 

[lbmii]

You will spend several seconds froze and not computing what is going on. You will spend several seconds scrambling about in a fight of flight response. You will spend several seconds dealing with and interacting with you companions. You will spend several seconds figuring out what to do.

You will fumble about trying to get your pistol from your concealed carry holster. This will not go smoothly because you do not practice this at the range. If you fire it will be quickly and without the use of the sights. Something you don't do at the range. At the range you sit at the bench and shoot your pistol while your pistol rested on a sand bag and you consider yourself a good shot. You will shoot at the person in their general area, they will not be facing you like a silhouette target, they will have movement and they may make eye contact. Your sights will not even need to be on the pistol because they will be unused.

The person you are shooting at could be a fellow CCWer that was thinking quicker than you. You yourself could be mistaken as the shooter by a fellow CCWer.

 

[03Shadowbob]

The idea of being able to draw, aim and hit a melon sized target on a swivel at 15 yards with other innocent bystanders seeing you draw your weapon, screaming while looking right at you, moving out of the way and generally all hell breaking loose is a pipe dream and I would hope 99.9% of the gun carrying people out there would never attempt that shot.
Go with your training or if you don't have any, go with the spoken and sometimes tried and true words of those who do.
This ain't no movie.

First thing I am gonna do is look for a way to get my family out of there, which more than likely should be easily done as we will be near an exit . If there is a way out, more than likely I am with them. I have no desire to die for anyone other than family and close friends. I am no hero. My duty and loyalties remain with my family.
If there was no way out of there then circumstances will dictate what happens next especially if there is more than one bad guy.

 

[JMusic]

I don't believe I would do a thing unless the perp was in the process of grabbing someone else. Two in com and one to the head I have never understood. You start shooting com and zipper up. If the perp was not looking at me and I was to shoot I would be moving closer to the perp at an angle. Someone said you run for cover if thats your mindset forget about shooting. Upon your first shot you are ingauged and you had better have your mind on ending it.

Jim

 

[1911 guy]

Good points by JMusic and ShadowBob.

First responsibility is to remove my family from danger if at all possible. If that measn leaving 100 other people in the control of a psycho, so be it. My family matters to me as much as yours does to you.

Secondly, there is no debating when you're engaged. You pull a roscoe, you're in it 'till the bitter end. There will be no escaping the notice of the gunman/men once the people around you react to seeing another gun drawn. Delicacy can be thrown to the wind, at that point. Get behind something hard and exchange fire if there are no GG serving as your backstop. If GG are in your line, I'd opt to advance and increase my hit probability.