Specific Hypothetical: Luby's or bank robbery type situation: CNS or Vitals shot?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

This occurred to me as I was eating lunch. Suppose the situation is a madman with a gun, either as was the case with the Luby's killer, or say a bank robbery situation - the perp has already shot one person that you saw with your own eyes, and of course is still brandishing his gun, and you believe is intent on shooting/killing more people. But, *at the moment he is stopped pretty still* (for whatever reason), to where you think you could draw your CCW and take a shot. The perp is not looking your direction at present, so you can draw and fire without being made. The perp is approx. 15 yards away from you (45 feet), so a pretty good long ways across the room. You want to end the threat and put the perp down.

The question is, do you go for a CNS shot (head) or do you go for a vitals shot? Obviously the head is a smaller and harder target, but will instantly end the threat with a good hit. The vitals is a larger target and has the advantage that if you miss, you could still likely hit a non-vital area but injure bone and cause bleeding, which could either partially incapacitate or at least start the bleeding process towards incapacitation. However, the vitals shot would not stop the threat instantly even with a heart hit - the perp could still kill 1-3 more people (or more), including yourself if shot this way, before dying.

Now, with a perp standing still at 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, or 11 yards or so, I would definitely take the head shot, as I feel comfortable hitting a head sized target at those ranges with my short-sight-radiused Kahr MK9, but groups open up pretty quickly past that. Somewhere in the 11, 12, 13 yard range, it becomes more sensible to go for a vitals shot, for ME and *my chosen* carry weapon (usually carrying). Of course, if you miss the head, all sorts of bad things can and probably would happen, including return fire to directed at you only.

And I think past 16-18 yards, somewhere in there, nearly everyone would try for a vitals shot, as that's a long ways to make a hit on a smalleish target with a carry gun, unless you're a real crack shot IDPA whiz with a 5" 1911 and nerves of steel.

But in between, say, at 12-18 yards, give or take, do you shoot the head or the body? Does it depend on which carry gun you have? If so, which choice with which carry guns?

What say you?

 

[99sparks]

Perp. Police job. I would look for a way to leave. Last resourt to my life is shoot. Other than that... I leave. Shooting costs to much money and time.

 

[Jeff White]

You are likely to be greatly disappointed with your head shot. You already have alluded to the difficulty of the target. But the whole head is not a CNS kill. You have to get the bullet into the brain box, which means you have a pretty small window on the top of the bridge of the nose to the eyes to the lower part of the forehead. You have to see the the suspect from the front to hit this target which means he can see you.

From the side you have to hit a bundle of nerves that runs from ear to ear over the top of the head (picture the suspect wearing walkman type head phones). From the back you have to hit the brain stem which is about the size of a walnut. Those are the only places you are going to shoot the suspect and have a reasonable chance of getting a no reflex kill.

Then there is the problem of penetrating enough to get into the brain. If you are in a restaurant or bank, you're unlikely to be carrying a rifle. You'll most likely have a handgun and getting a handgun bullet to penetrate the skull and make your no reflex kill is likely to be problematic. Louis Awerbuck talks of observing a .45 acp round deflect off the bill of a baseball cap on a tactical ted. There have been many instances of handgun rounds failing to penetrate the skull and just making very bloody wounds in the scalp.

15 yards, high stress situation, heart rate 130+, shooting for a spot that is measured in inches for a no reflex kill with a handgun that might not penetrate......No I don't think so....But that's just me.

Jeff

 

[csmkersh]

And Jeff has given you the up side of the medulla box shot. Even if the perp is facing you and you have a chance to get a round into the two inch wide strip, things go wrong more often than the go right. Hit high on the forehead and the bullet is likely to bounce off. Happened to Jim Cirillo in his first stake out of a stop-n-rob.

Unless the perp is pulling a Hennard ala Waco, hold your fire. If he's on a killing spree, light him up in the thorax area. What you might consider, if your packing a major caliber, is one round to the pelvis to put him down and anchor him in place. Otherwise, just keep putting rounds into his chest until he's down or you're out of ammo.
​

 

[Tokugawa]

What are you, glued to the ground? Shoot him a couple times in the chest run up on him and keep shooting till he stops. Once you open fire, you had better be prepared to do anything you need to do to neutralize him.

 

[bogie]

Two at the upper chest, at least get his attention. Commence WALKING forward, firing. You don't want to trip and fall.

 

[Mandirigma]

Vitals, adrenaline and stress make "easy" shots not so easy

 

[Defensory]

There are a lot of horror stories out there about how the .45 ACP is allegedly such a "poor penetrator"---supposedly failing to penetrate and deflecting off of windshields, baseball caps, jackets etc.

So let's consult the "Box O' Truth":

12-gauge 2 3/4" #1 & #4 buckshot both penetrated six boards of 5/8" sheetrock.

12-gauge 2 3/4" 00 buckshot penetrated eight boards.

Fired from the same distance as the shotgun rounds, the "lowly" .45 ACP hardball penetrated TWELVE boards of 5/8" sheetrock.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

-------------------

Now let's consult the "Buick O' Truth" for windshield penetration of the .45 ACP:

In a comparison between the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP---the "lowly" .45 ACP penetrated the windshield easily, with LESS deflection and LESS fragmentation than both the 9mm and the .40 S&W. The .45 ACP round hit closer to the point of aim on the target inside, than either of the "wonder" rounds.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2_2.htm

-------------------

After over a hundred years, the venerable .45 ACP cartridge just keeps proving the naysayers wrong, time and time again.

Someday in heaven, the "WonderNine" and "WonderWheelie" boys will be shining old John B's shoes!

 

[LSU Fan]

as stated in "practice drills"... practice the double tap drill and the failure to stop drill.... at varying distances, moving, etc. While most shots to the head will put someone down for the count, as Mandirigma said... easy shots won't be so easy. Consecutive shots to the chest will cause more trauma and hopefully cause the BG to stop.

Not too sure who said this but you've got to remember... "Think of the worst day at the range, you will be twice as bad as that in the middle of a gun fight"

 

[Jeff White]

There are a lot of horror stories out there about how the .45 ACP is allegedly such a "poor penetrator"---supposedly failing to penetrate and deflecting off of windshields, baseball caps, jackets etc.

Let me get this straight, you're calling Louis Awerbuck a liar?

The box of truth is a box of anecdotes. In over 30 years of shooting as part of my job, both as an Army Infantryman and a police officer I have seen bullets just flat do things you'd never expect. Doesn't mean that it happens all the time, it just means it's possible. I would not count on any handgun round of any caliber reliably penetrating the skull from every angle you can think of.

Jeff

 

[ronnieevans40]

Shoot him big

I say dont shoot unless it is necessary to prevent a killing spree or to protect your own life. There is the risk of hitting others or missing him and starting a general gun fight between the two of you. But if you do have to shoot hit him big. If he is facing away from you aim center mass and hit him with2 or 3 well placed shots. I also support the group opinion that you should keep shooting until the guy is parked forever. If he is presenting only a side shot aim just below the shoulder and hit him hard again. You will knock him around and might even get his lungs or heart. Again keep shooting until he is down for good. I am not sure at that range just how effective a normal person will be if they have never trained stress shooting or even how I would be in that situation. I have never had to fire a hand gun in anger and pray that I will never have to. But my instructors all teach center mass, shoot to stop, and keep shooting until the threat is no longer able to be a threat.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Jeff White:
Let me get this straight, you're calling Louis Awerbuck a liar?

The box of truth is a box of anecdotes. In over 30 years of shooting as part of my job, both as an Army Infantryman and a police officer I have seen bullets just flat do things you'd never expect. Doesn't mean that it happens all the time, it just means it's possible. I would not count on any handgun round of any caliber reliably penetrating the skull from every angle you can think of.

Congratulations, Jeff!

EVERYTHING in your posts, including Mr. Awerbuck's alleged statement/observation---is ANECDOTAL.

If you care to share some of your Army and police stories, which I noticed you haven't, please be advised that they are ALL merely ANECDOTAL.

The Box O' Truth has done actual testing, clearly described how they performed those tests, and provided actual photographs of their testing. Which thus far is a lot more than I've seen from you and Mr. Awerbuck.

 

[Jeff White]

It's all anecdotal.

The Box O' Truth has done actual testing, clearly described how they performed those tests, and provided actual photographs of their testing.

Yes they have, however they haven't tested anything that generated enough repetitions that would lead one to draw the conclusion that you get those results every time. Or even 99 out of 100 times. A hobbyist simply can't fund enough repetitions. I have a folder full of photographs of various rounds being shot through different types of glass. But all that proves is that those few examples of those loads performed that way against the glass medium on that given day. I didn't even fire enough that you could draw a conclusion about even one lot of ammunition, and neither does anyone at box of truth.

I have seen enough and read enough reports, yes all anecdotal evidence, but it leads me to believe that handgun rounds can't be trusted to reliably penetrate the skull. You can believe whatever you want based on the old box of truth. I'm going to go with personal observation, casualty reports, autopsy reports and police reports.

Jeff

 

[Treo]

Somebody once said that in a crisis people don't rise to the occassian, they are reduced to their level of training.

The standard I trained to in the Army ( I don't use reactive targets now) was aim centermass and shoot till the target goes down.

As for the precision head shots, I would think that the adrenelin rush would preclude it. The only time I ever actually aimed at another human being ( who WASN'T shooting at anyone) I had so much adrenelin in my system that all I saw was the sights and a blur.( he was standing still)

Harry Callahan has left the building

 

[Defensory]

I'll have to take Massad Ayoob's anecdotal evidence over Jeff's

Below is an excerpt from a most excellent article by Massad Ayoob. Be sure to click on the link and read the entire article:

“Legendary Manstopper”

"The bolt-action 1903 Springfield and 1917 Enfield .30/06 battle rifles had proven themselves splendidly rugged and accurate when sniping at enemy soldiers across the battlefield. But, when the enemy was right there in the trenches with you, ready to spear you with the blood-stained bayonet of his Mauser, these long, heavy rifles that needed a four-step process to hand-cycle another cartridge into the firing chamber were not the optimum defensive tools.

The 1911 pistol, on the other hand, proved to be in its element there. Eight quick flicks of the index finger unleashed eight heavy 230-grain bullets, almost half an inch in diameter and traveling some 830 feet per second. At close range, when a single .45 slug struck the enemy in the wishbone, he tended to be immediately rendered hors de combat. To hell with bayoneted rifles, said the doughboys; this Colt .45 automatic was the ticket to getting out of the trenches alive once the enemy hordes had flowed into those trenches with you.

Countless tales of up close and personal pistol fighting emerged from WWI. The bottom line was that when Americans shot Germans with Colt .45 automatics, the Germans tended to fall down and die. When Germans shot Americans with their 9mm Luger pistols, the Americans tended to become indignant and kill the German who shot them, and then walk to an aid station to either die a lingering death or recover completely. Thus was born the reputation of the .45 automatic as a “legendary manstopper,” and the long-standing American conviction that the 9mm automatic was an impotent wimp thing that would make your wife a widow if you trusted your life to it.

Then came WWII. The .45 automatic was the standard military weapon then as well. Used heavily in both theaters of the war, it was particularly valued in the Pacific, where Japanese sappers tended to infiltrate through the wires and be on top of the Yank soldier with knife in hand when the American woke up to deal with it. And the legend of the .45 as the “one shot, one kill” weapon was reinforced. It did not hurt that reputation that the average target in the Pacific was a rice-fed, half-starved biped who weighed about 130 pounds.

Then came Korea, and then Vietnam. Nothing happened to change the image of the .45 automatic as a deadly manstopper. In the mid-1980s, several trends converged upon the one firearm that had served the American military the longest. NATO was pushing the USA for complete compatibility in small arms ammo, and every other nation carried 9mm pistols.

Except for target pistols for the pistol teams, the US government had not purchased new 1911s since before the Korean War, and the old guns were getting pretty clapped out. Finally, it is said, the Pentagon wanted cruise missiles in Italy and Italy wanted a lucrative US military contract in return. In any case, it was at that time that the United States armed services adopted the Italian Beretta Model 92F, caliber 9mm, as the official US service handgun that would be designated the M9 and would replace the 1911.

Fast forward to the present. When the War Against Terrorism went into the caves of Afghanistan, pistols became the weapons of choice for soldiers working on point in very close quarters. It became apparent that the 9mm with full metal jacket Geneva Convention ammo was as impotent as it was in WWI, with Al-Queda fanatics soaking up several rounds before they gave up the ghost.

Those Yanks fortunate enough to have .45s—Army Delta Force, who purchase their own 1911s out of a stipend provided, and all the Special Operations Command elite who have access to the HK SOCOM pistol in that caliber—found that one or two full metal jacket .45 hardball rounds were all it took to drop a terrorist in his tracks. The call went out again: “We need .45s.”

What goes around comes around. Santayana was right. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

--Massad Ayoob

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html

 

[Jeff White]

This isn't about caliber..don't try to make it about caliber

Defensory,

Let's not turn this into a caliber war. For crying out loud I carried a Kimber Warrior on duty. I was instrumental in getting my old department to switch to .45.

What I am saying is that I don't trust any handgun round to reliably penetrate the skull.

This isn't about caliber, it's about the fact that a handgun, chambered in any caliber you can name is a poor defensive weapon. We only carry them because they are convenient.

The Strategies and Tactics forum is about software...not hardware. And I think that knowing you might not reliably put a handgun round into the brain pan because the human skull is pretty hard and handguns of all calibers have failed to do that in the past, is good information to have before you need to make a decision on how to engage a bad guy.

Over the years I've carried .38 special, .357 magnum, 9mm and .45 acp on duty. I've never felt inadequately armed with any of them.

Jeff

 

[gallo]

A CNS shot at 15, only in if you are Mel Gibson. Note to self, pick a seat close to the fire exit next time I go to Luby's.

 

[jackdanson]

Center presented mass. I'm not nearly a good enough shot to aim for anything else.

 

[Defensory]

Let's not turn this into a caliber war. For crying out loud I carried a Kimber Warrior on duty. I was instrumental in getting my old department to switch to .45. What I am saying is that I don't trust any handgun round to reliably penetrate the skull.

There's no caliber war here, Jeff. Your Awerbuck example, even if true, is a TOTAL FLUKE. Just how many people who've ever been shot by a .45, have had the shot deflected by something like the BILL of a BALL CAP?! Not very bloody many, that's for sure. For future reference, I'm going to call your example the "Awerbuck Miracle".

This isn't about caliber, it's about the fact that a handgun, chambered in any caliber you can name is a poor defensive weapon. We only carry them because they are convenient.

Sheer opinion on your part, Jeff. If you insist, I'll happily provide quotes from guys like Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob etc.---confirming that heavy caliber rounds like the .45 ACP are most certainly VERY effective defensive cartridges. Massad's article that I already quoted from in this very thread is a testament to the stopping power of the .45 ACP. There are also many police departments around the country that can attest to the historical stopping power of the .357 Magnum.

The .45 ACP has proven to be a HIGHLY effective defensive weapon in both the military and law enforcement, as well as in countless civilian defensive situations.

The Strategies and Tactics forum is about software...not hardware. And I think that knowing you might not reliably put a handgun round into the brain pan because the human skull is pretty hard and handguns of all calibers have failed to do that in the past, is good information to have before you need to make a decision on how to engage a bad guy.

Hmmmm. Ain't it funny, but the immortal Jeff Cooper was so impressed with the "Mozambique Drill"---two shots center mass, one to the head---that he incorporated it into his "Modern Technique", and he and his instructors taught the technique at Gunsite during the years he was in charge of the facility.

Over the years I've carried .38 special, .357 magnum, 9mm and .45 acp on duty. I've never felt inadequately armed with any of them.

The .45 ACP and .357 are unquestionably very effective. However, I'd rate the .38 Special and 9mm "barely adequate". Personally, I don't carry either, except maybe as a backup to a high capacity .45.

Here's an article on the .38 Special that you might find interesting, especially with your law enforcement background:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1141090

 

[TAB]

Ok, I've seen a 30-06 fail to pentrait a pigs head( as in looking thru the sights), I've also see a 357( could have been shooting 38s) fail to pentrait a humen skull at point blank range.

So, there is no way I would even think about doing a head shot. besides all that, I have several hundred hours of training that says, put two in the chest.

 

[crebralfix]

Get a good first shot hit somewhere in the torso. Continue to hammer the goblin with rounds as fast as possible as you work your way up to the head. Stop shooting the goblin when he stops fighting.

My first move will most likely be to move to cover. "Move first, then draw."

At five yards, I'm definitely going for cover first and a fast draw on the move. This probably means a shot from the hip or midpoint in my drawstroke (depends upon various factors like movement, rounds coming at me, and cover). A hit will reset his OODA loop, giving me the chance to seize the initiative. I will then continue to shoot him until he stops fighting. I'll have to remember to check for another goblin.

At seven yards, I may have a bit more time. I may just side step or crouch, though if rounds are coming at me I'm "gonna get outta Dodge." I may decide to take the time to aim better and get a CNS shot, but only if conditions are right. Otherwise, it'll probably be the same as at five yards and even 10 yards.

Of course, I could do everything right, nail the guy, and still get killed. Or, I could screw up completely, miss every shot, and still make it home in time for dinner. One thing's for certain: I will assume that whatever I do will fail and have a plan of action to handle it. I will assume that my handgun bullets will be inadequate for the task and I will simply be "liberal with my ammo."

 

[csmkersh]

Bystanders and lurkers:

Get a copy of Jim Cirillo's Guns, Bullets and Gunfights and read his experiences with head shots. Cirillo found typical factory loads unreliable and went to work handloading Pin Grabber bullets and developing his own designs because of the unreliable standard loads for skull penetration. I'm with Jeff on this.


​

 

[Biker]

Yup, unless I'm at contact distance in such a situation, it's COM everytime.

Biker

 

[ZeSpectre]

CNS head shot at 45ft under a high stress situation?
If it were me I'd probably just shoot myself and get it over with cleanly.

COM and however many shots it takes (or I have, whichever comes first).

AND...
The standard thing I alway harp on whenever someone mentions this sort of scenario, REMEMBER to look for badguy #2, #3, etc. The obvious threat you observe may not be the only one present and you may have to plan for dealing with more than one.

I know that warning doesn't really have much to do with the scenario presented, but it's a bit of mental preparedness that I try to get into folks "tactical thinking" as much as possible. Few scenarios upset me more than having goodguy take down badguy only to be blindsided by another (unnoticed) badguy.

 

[Pat Cannon]

Several times, including this week, I've shot an IDPA stage where, from the peanut gallery, I thought I'd go for head shots, but once I was behind the gun that head suddenly looked a lot smaller, and I went for center-of-mass after all.

Kinda like the roof, or the ski hill, doesn't look very high until you're up on it looking down.