Shot Shells for .45 Auto Rim

[Crowman]

The .45 auto shot shells manufactured by CCI are not designed for revolvers and they even tell you not to use them in revolvers...sprays lead at the cylinder gap, no plastic capsule to contain the shot, etc. ; however, I like to take either my 325PD or my Classic Model 25-14 into the woods for walks and need a snake load for copperheads and timber rattlers. Has anyone concocted a shot load using Speer shot capsules and R-P Auto Rim cases?

I was sitting at my reloading bench cooking up some 255 grain Laser Cast SWC bowling pin loads for my M25-14 and looked at the shot capsules that I have on-hand for my .45 Colt snake loads (also had a bag of #9 lead shot handy) and was wondering about putting say about 5.6 grains of W-W 231 (corresponds to RCBS #9 powder rotor) in an auto rim case, then filling a shot capsule with #9's and seating it to 1/8" of the cylinder end and putting a taper crimp to hold things together. Any thoughts on this?

 

[rcmodel]

Should work fine, although I haven't tried it yet. Been meaning to get a round-tuit!

The problem with the factory .45 ACP load is the bottle-neck aluminum case. Not shot leaking out the gap.

It expands into the chamber shoulder and binds up against the recoil shield so the cylinder won't turn.

I don't know what I would use for a powder charge, but don't use as much as you do in the .45 Colt case and it should work fine.

rcmodel

 

[gunokie]

I think RCBS ( and maybe some of the other reloading guys) make a kit you can buy to make 45ACP shotshells out of .308 or 30/06 cases. Costs about $60. You cut the case to 45acp OAL, then you use a special crimping die that comes with the kit that make a beautiful 8 point crimp that also mimics profile of a 230gr ball FMJ. cut em' throw your powder charge, insert a paper "card" wad,throw your shot charge and crimp, they look like GIANT 22short rat shot loads. They run flawlessly in most auto's and they should work great with moon clips. I don't think the 45LC case will work unless you turn down the rim.
BT

 

[Sunray]

Shotshells out of any rifled barrel make patterns with huge holes in them. The shot string flies in a spiral sending the shot who knows where. Smacking Kaa on the head with a stick kills him stone dead.
Mind you, killing Kaa just because he's a snake isn't a good thing. Kaa eats beasties that are far more harmful to people. And he'll only bite you if you bother him. Food you ain't. Watch where you step(step on me and you'll pay too) and put your hands and Kaa is quite content to leave you alone. Kaa doesn't like you anyway. He'll avoid you if he can.

 

[Crowman]

I generally leave most critters alone that I wander up on. Unfortunately, some Kaa are a little too good at blending in with the leaves around my neck of the woods and tend to be somewhat territorial, especially this time of year. Also we've got a cotton mouth down at the pond that likes to chase the john boat around. I keep plenty of black racers around the house to thin out the deer mice and copperheads but this time of year, the "bad" Kaa are on the prowl looking for a spot to den up for the winter and the leaf cover is very deep. I generally let all Kaa alone whenever possible; never finding a need to poke or prod for amusement; however, I do take a stick along occasionally, to move stuff out from underfoot, but prefer to keep some shot shells on hand in the event of hazardous meetings, of which I have had a couple. Now 'nough said about Kaa.

As far as making .45 ACP shot shells from .308 or .30-06 brass for use in autos, that is a lot of time and expense to go through when CCI's .45 ACP shot shells work perfectly in auto pistols and I already have a few boxes of them on hand. Also, there may be a reason not to use this type of shot shell load construction in revolvers.

CCI flat out tells you do not use .45 ACP shot shells, which are designed for auto pistols and use a specially formed extended case with rounded mouth and wads, in revolvers. As far as having the special extended cartridge case back out against the recoil shield, it would seem that moon clips would prevent this from happening, otherwise, wouldn't it be a problem with other types of loads?

I have forwarded an e-mail to CCI asking what their official reasons were for not recommending use of their auto pistol shot shells in revolvers, and expect an answer in a couple of days.

What prompted the original e-mail is that when I asked CCI for load data, they told me that none had been worked up using a shot capsule with Auto Rim cases and I was wondering if anyone had cobbled together a .45 Auto Rim shot shell that will work satisfactorily in a revolver and have an effective range of 10 feet or less with good shot density. So I am interested in powders, charge weights, etc. I have #9 shot on hand (which is what CCI puts in most of their centerfire shot shells), plenty of Speer .45 caliber shot capsules, and new R-P Auto Rim cases. Any help?

 

[StrawHat]

I recall reading somewhere (maybe Handloader Magazine) that using the plastic capsule in a revovler was difficult because when crimping, they tended to split. Without a crimp the shot capsule would walk out of the case.

The solution was to trim 308 or 30-06 brass to just under cylinder length. Size in a 45 ACP die, then size in a 44 magnum die until they would chamber int he revolver. Powder, over powder wad, shot, over shot wad and a taper crimp.

Never tried it as I prefer SWCs in my revolvers.

I know Mike Venturino, among others, has tried it and written about it.

GOod Luck.

 

[mgregg85]

You could always do what the guys at gunblast.com did. They loaded up .38 special cases with some #9 shot and capped it off with a .375 lead round ball.

Seems like the same idea could work for .45 auto rim and a .457 lead round balls.

 

[dogrunner]

Dear Canadian:

Pith on Kaa.......PITH. I introduce "Kaa", be he buzztail, whitemouth, copper toned hourglass, or 'red & yeller" to a charge of 7&1/2s from the .44 at each meeting.........Now, the white mouth will block your passage, throw open his mouth and chase you if he feels like it. The buzztail'l lie quietly and you WON'T see him in the scrub palmetto (leastways till he snags your or your best dog, and Mr. red and yeller will sneak into your garden and do you and you'rs grevious harm..........introduce 'em all to Mr. 7&1/2.......

You Canuks must have friendly, touchy feely and considerate big brother loving "Kaa's"...........we don't!

 

[dogrunner]

Dear Canadian:

Pith on Kaa.......PITH. I introduce "Kaa", be he buzztail, whitemouth, copper toned hourglass, or 'red & yeller" to a charge of 7&1/2s from the .44 at each meeting.........Now, the white mouth will block your passage, throw open his mouth and chase you if he feels like it. The buzztail'l lie quietly and you WON'T see him in the scrub palmetto (leastways till he snags your or your best dog, and Mr. red and yeller will sneak into your garden and do you and you'rs grevious harm..........introduce 'em all to Mr. 7&1/2.......

You Canuks must have friendly, touchy feely and considerate big brother loving "Kaa's"...........we don't!

Truly, ours are like our Government, always lurking with an unpleasant dose of something, and even if they don't succeed in touching you, they scare the hell out of you and cause great grevious concern.

 

[rcmodel]

it would seem that moon clips would prevent this from happening, otherwise, wouldn't it be a problem with other types of loads?

No.
Moon clips will not make one bit of differance.

Other types of loads do not have part of the case extending into the chamber throats like the aluminum shot-shells.

The bottle-neck case in a .45 ACP chamber backs out hard against the recoil shield, then expands to fit the ACP chamber step.

Then it cannot slide back into the cylinder enough to free it up from the recoil shield.

Still don't beleive me?
Try it!

They may work in some guns, but not in the S&W's I have tried them in.

rcmodel

 

[hangtime]

umm. . . . .

most of the snakes I've encountered were at very close range( inside 7 yards ) and being very still hoping I would pass them by without noticing. Why not just let them be or if you must, engage the enemy with your normal woodswalking load?

 

[mainmech48]

If CCI makes capsules for .45 Colt cases, I don't see why they wouldn't work okay loaded into .45 AR cases. IIRC, the splits are usually related to the roll crimping process and the "walking" problems to too loose a fit in the case. Seems logical that some experimenting with a taper crimp might resolve both.

A collet-type crimping die like the ones necessary for the 'heeled' bullets used in the .44 Colt and a couple of other oddities might be the ideal solution, but they'd likely have to be custom made and hence pretty expensive.

 

[Crowman]

Dear RCMODEL: You are absolutely correct. Here is what CCI had to say...

"The 45 Auto headspaces the casing on the case mouth. The 45
Auto revolvers accomplish headspace from the case rim with a moon-clip
or the like. The 45 Auto uses a necked-down case to perform the
headspace function and does not have a capsule to hold the shot, only an
over-powder wad and over-shot wad.

When fired in the revolver the neck-down expands and moves the case back
against the recoil shield, either locking it or making rotation very
difficult. "


I tried something today...sized, expanded and primed some new R-P .45 Auto Rim cases with WLP primers and filled some Speer .45 caliber shot capsules to capacity with #9 lead shot. Next, loaded about 5.6 grains of WW 231 and seated the shot capsules with my .45 ACP seater die in the cases with out crimping. I next used my RCBS .45 ACP taper crimp die to put a light taper crimp the cases and had no breakage. I then tried the loads out in a Model 25-14 Classic revolver and had a fairly good pattern at about 10 feet with no creapage of the capsules. Also fired some bowling pin loads to put a little extra motion in order to see if the capsules walked and they did not. Haven't tried any in my 325 PD...gun is too light and heavy loads tend to pull bullets.

The rest of you please realize that I do not go out of my way to specifically target snakes...I am a kind of let live sorta fellow, but I have had some encounters where the snake failed to back down and chose not to just lay there and I had no other option but to drill 'em bercause they were between me and the house. The snake loads are easier to use for this application than a 255 grain LSWC over 5.7-6.0 grains of Unique! Also easier on the ears.