shot string length

[9x23]

Part of the answer may be on the patterning board...

If you look at your results at the patterning board the pellets are ditributed in a circle - and no, I don't know when they arrived there. But it would seem logical to me that those pellets at the bottom of the pattern would hit the water first and then be followed by the rest as gravity takes it's toll. Thus giving the appearance of a shot string.

The diagrams that I've seen of shot strings indicates that they are congregated in the center of the pattern and would not hit the water first. I recall Brister's experiments, but my copy of the book is still packed up from my last move. Perhaps somone with the book handy could post a picture of his experiment?.....9x23

 

[JohnBT]

Shooting down at water at an angle from a bank or a blind, it's possible to tell the difference in time between the leading edge hitting and the trailing edge. Some loads appear to splash in almost all at once and others are a more drawn out affair. Ever aim a water hose up at an angle and squeeze off a 5-foot or 10-foot squirt with the nozzle? The leading edge hits first and rest piles in behind it. Try it, it comes down in the same spot, but not all at the same time.

Sometimes, given the right conditions, you can see the pellet cloud/shot string in the air. Seeing the length of the string is probably easier from off to one side.

 

[JohnBT]

More, from www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=115197
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"Chokes, components and everything involved in and related to shotshell ballistics will affect a shot string, the length of which has been tested, debated, then retested and redebated time and again over the decades.

Basically, it can run as long as 12 feet -- or only half that.

Modern shotshell components and construction have gone a long way toward reducing shot strings.

Some shot stringing is necessary and inevitable, or shotguns wouldn't be shotguns, but the longer the string, the less desirable.

Source: Shotgunning: The Art and the Science by Bob Brister."
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From Frank Lopez:

"The reason we only have estimates is, as BobK points out, the shotstring is actually shaped like a cone with the apex forward. This configuration produces a pattern that will be shaped something like a comet. Kind of a round or oval mass with a slight tail. With a 12ga, 1 1/8oz load of #9s, there may be some slight advantage to a long shot string. The number of pellets involved at such a short distance are such that there is very little sacrificed in the way of pattern density anywhere along the string, with respect to the flight of the target.

The easiest way to prove this to yourself is to shoot a round or two with cheap promo loads. These loads generally have softer lead, higher velocity, poor wads and non progressive powder, all of which lead to longer shot strings. Pay close attention to the breaks. Then shoot a couple of rounds with a 28ga with good ammunition. The 28 is noted for its' short shot string. I think you'll find that the breaks with the 28 are actually more impressive than the 12 with the promo shells. Next, try a round or two with high quality target ammunition in the 12ga. Your breaks will be better still and easier to read.

Near as anyone can tell (see Case's post), shot string can be as long as 12 feet at skeet distances, or ot can be half that. With good ammunition, a 12ga 1 1/8oz load is probably about 6 feet long at 21 yards."
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[chas08]

Two very informative posts JohnBT ...Thank you....chas

 

[Virginian]

I have seen the shot cloud in the air many times, but I'll be damed if I can tell which pellets got there first, or how much distance was between them shooting at the water, other than the fact that the bottom of the charge hit closer and therefore got there before the top.

 

[JohnBT]

Were you shooting at a shallow angle or down from a bank that was 20 feet tall? One duck blind we had was a platform a good 12 feet up in the air and provided a pretty good angle.

I see what you're saying about the bottom of the pattern hitting first, but it's more of matter of how long it takes for all of the pellets to get into the water. I know it's a bare fraction of a second difference, but if you do it often enough you should be able to tell that there is a difference.

Meanwhile, I'll google for more pics. After supper.

John

 

[Pete409]

The effect of shot stringing is VERY minor. It is really splitting hairs.

When viewed as how it might make a difference on a crossing target, the pattern (when viewed in a 2-dimensional plane) is elongated horizontally (for a horizontally flying target). Essentially, this means that the pattern is less dense than if it all arrived at the same time and resulted in a round pattern.

If we put the speed of the shot and the speed of the crossing bird into perspective, the shot is moving at about 12 to 15 times as fast as the bird. So, even if the shot string is 12 feet long (which is quite long), that means that the bird has moved only 1 foot in the time that it takes for the first pellet to pass the bird until the last pellet in the string passes the bird.

Yes, it's possible that the bird MIGHT fly into the path of a pellet that would have missed him if he were stationary. It's just as likely that the bird will fly OUT of the path of a pellet that would have hit him. Net benefit = Zero.

So, in the final analysis, the pattern is more open and the likelihood of hitting the crossing bird with a dense portion of the pattern is reduced. If you are a poorly (skilled) shooter and want to increase the chances of a stray shot hitting a crossing bird at long distance, just put in a slightly more open choke. That would give you better odds than hoping for the shot string to make a poor shot into a good one.

OTOH, if you are a good shooter, about the only thing you can do to increase your odds of a successful shot (other than practicing) is to use good quality loads with tight chokes.

Happy hunting.

 

[Virginian]

I have shot into the water at every angle known to man, and most of it well within 100 miles of Richmond, and danged if I ever got an inkling of shot string from anything but Bob Brister's book and seeing a shot cloud in the air. If you can figure the string length based on the time difference of the pellets getting there, you're a better man than I am.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

If we put the speed of the shot and the speed of the crossing bird into perspective, the shot is moving at about 12 to 15 times as fast as the bird. So, even if the shot string is 12 feet long (which is quite long), that means that the bird has moved only 1 foot in the time that it takes for the first pellet to pass the bird until the last pellet in the string passes the bird

The thing is you are going off MV. How fast is a # 6 really going at,say 60 yards? The only real way to hash this out is like one of the early posters said-tow a large target at the speed you expect the bird to be flying at,at different ranges and see how many pellets hit the target rather than behind it. I recall reading of a Saudi prince doing just that, with the target being towed by a Rolls[of course] so he could pattern his Prudy[naturally]

 

[MCgunner]

Watch that vid enough and I go cross eyed. That guy is getting a work out, though, ain't he? Never has to reload, either....

 

[Pete409]

Jim,

You are missing the point. Whether the shot is moving 15 times faster than the bird or only 8 times faster than the bird, the situation is the same, i.e. the bird has an equal chance of moving INTO the path of a pellet or OUT of the path of a pellet. Surely you don't think that the bird can see a pellet coming and dodge it do you?

If someone put a blindfold over your eyes and ear plugs in your ears and made you run across a 6 lane highway at rush hour, would you rather that all the vehicles be tightly bunched together or strung out over a long distance? I think that your odds of surviving the dash across the highway would be better if the vehicles were strung out over a long distance. Same thing applies to shot strings and crossing birds.

Most poorly skilled shooters already shoot WAY behind long crossing targets. Why would they want to compound their problem by using loads that are going to have a large portion of the pattern arriving even later? That would just cause them to miss even further behind the target.

As for doing the test of pulling a big target behind a vehicle, it has already been done by Bob Brister. Someone already mentioned this above. Read Brister's book (referenced above) and learn about it.

As for your question about hitting 60 yard crossing targets, the LAST thing a shooter needs is a more open pattern at that distance if he expects to hit anything with any reliability at all. As I said, if you do want a more open pattern so that you can "spray and pray" that a lucky pellet may accidentally hit the bird in the brain, just put in your Skeet choke and have at it. Personally, I'll stick to tight chokes, good quality loads, and more practice.

 

[JohnBT]

"Surely you don't think that the bird can see a pellet coming and dodge it do you?"

I believe some doves can.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

bird has moved only 1 foot in the time that it takes for the first pellet to pass the bird until the last pellet in the string passes the bird.

That was the gist of what I was replying to.You seem to imply the shot is so fast all of it will hit the bird regardless of the length of the shot column. And totally off subject I have never liked Brister. He replaced Warren Page at Field&Stream and instead of hunting in Africa with a 7MM Mashburn I was treated to endless steel shot storys.

 

[JohnBT]

Jeez, Warren Page resigned in 1972. That's 37 years, aren't you tired of carrying that grudge around yet?

 

[Pete409]

You seem to imply the shot is so fast all of it will hit the bird regardless of the length of the shot column.

BULL****

You need some reading lessons.