Shotgun for defense? Maybe not.

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Dfence

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After hearing about the power of the shotgun and how it's the #1 home defender, I got one. I also did a little test that didn't turn out like I imagined it would. First, let me say that I'm aware that #6 birdshot isn't the best defense round, but it does put out about 1600 foot lbs. of energy--much more than any handgun.

I fired a #6 shell at a phone book from very close range. It barely penetrated! Thinking it must have been a dud, or underpowed load, I tried again with the same results! A 9mm round goes right through.

So is #6 TOTALLY ineffective for defense? Do I absolutely HAVE to use buckshot if I want to have any luck at all? What would be the effect of #6 on a human in defense? Any accounts of this?
 
So is #6 TOTALLY ineffective for defense? Do I absolutely HAVE to use buckshot if I want to have any luck at all? What would be the effect of #6 on a human in defense? Any accounts of this?

Birdshot is for birds.
 
They call it birdshot for a reason, #6 is on the small end of acceptable shot for Turkeys (typical range for Turkey is #4-#6 shot) Shot smaller than #6 is usually used for smaller birds like quail.

Ike

p.s. as to effect against a person, it can cause a very serious wound, but is unlikely to penetrate deep enough to damage any vital organs. I once knew a man that worked as a rodeo clown, many years ago he was seriously injured by a "blank" shotgun shell while performing a show stunt, the wadding from the load fired at close range hit him in the jaw which broke the jaw and knocked several teeth it was bad enough to required multiple reconstructive surgeries.
 
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So is #6 TOTALLY ineffective for defense?

Against pheasants? No. Against humans? Yes.

I would recommend a .380 pocket gun for personal defense against humans before I'd recommend a shotgun loaded with birdshot.

A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot or slugs is one of, if not THE, most destructive and instantly effective weapons a person can use against a human attacker. If you want to see devastation, try the same phone book test using 00 Buck. It will open your eyes.
 
Dfence,

Back when I was working an ambulance as an EMT, I had occasion to zip up a body bag on an unfortunate lothario who ran afoul of an offended husband who happened to have a shotgun handy. The shotgun was loaded with birdshot, the range was a few feet and the wounds were what surgeons used to refer to as 'rathole wounds'- big ragged holes. Lothario was DRT, shot three times. He went to the morgue, the offended husband went to jail. Oh, and the fire department had to hose down the parking lot where the encounter took place.

There were other examples I experienced where shotguns with birdshot were lethal. Always the range was very close, mere feet or even inches. We worked other shootings involving shotguns loaded with birdshot that were not immediately fatal, though the wounds inflicted were dangerous due to punctured lungs, peritonitis etc.

There are numerous other anecdotes out there regarding shotguns and birdshot, and the predominant factors in quick incapacitation/lethality pretty well seem to me to come down to the same two things that determine the effectiveness of any defensive firearm - penetration and placement. Without both of those factors in place, no defensive firearm is going to be very effective against a determined assailant. Placement is mostly under the control of the shooter, what the firearm and ammunition have to deliver is penetration.

Birdshot can be effective in a defensive shotgun, given 1) close range, sufficient to guarantee adequate penetration and 2) proper placement. Take a look at this medical examiner's report from Australia for an object lesson in the above two factors - http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html .

But the important question is, can it be counted on to perform adequately for defensive use in less than an ideal situations? Personally, I don't think it can be counted on if all the circumstances are not in its favor. So I don't use it for defense, I prefer to use a good tight patterning load of 00 buckshot (Federal LE127 00) with slugs in reserve if more range or more penetration is needed. Note that we live well out in a rural area, LE response times are likely going to be measured in tens of minutes, shotguns are the go-to long guns here and they might well have to be used outdoors as well as indoors.

Your circumstances and situation will vary, more than likely, and those things will necessarily influence your choice of defensive ammunition. All I can say is, inform yourself as fully as you are able before you choose, choose carefully and be able to clearly articulate why you chose the ammunition you did select.

And in the midst of all this, don't overlook your ability to be able to put whatever defensive load you choose where it needs to go in order to rapidly incapacitate an attacker... that is not something you can buy off the shelf in a box. It takes training and practice.

Stay Safe,

lpl
 
#2 (.15) shot is often said to be the smallest acceptable as it DOES just get the penetration you want at very close ranges. BB (.18) shot is often considered ideal at close range as it optimizes penetrationa and wound channels. #4 (.24) Buckshot is darn good at HD ranges too. Move outside at all, move up to #1 or 0 Buckshot.
 
Most people don't live in a mansion so the typical range in a house would generally be 15' or less by the time you add for barrel length and stand off from the walls due to furniture and other house hold items. At that range bird shot is quite lethal, esp from a full or modified choke shotgun.

Larger shot is better for penetration and range. BB of the lead or heavi-shot variety is quite good. BB was the preferred load for jungle warfare by ROK troops in Vietnam who bought shotguns and shells from a friend of mine who brought them in on supply runs. Said they wouldn't take buckshot, only BB bird shot. He would sell them a shot gun and case of shells he bought at the PX in Japan and hand them a hack saw. They'd cut the barrel off at the end of the magazine tube and they where good to go.
 
Most people don't live in a mansion so the typical range in a house would generally be 15' or less by the time you add for barrel length and stand off from the walls due to furniture and other house hold items. At that range bird shot is quite lethal, esp from a full or modified choke shotgun.

Mansions have nothing to do with it.....my 1300sf home has a straight line possible shot of over 60 feet - just the way things are sometimes
 
What Lee said.

The smaller shot has less force per pellet, hence it slows faster and makes a shallow wound. My parents were army medics, before I was born a coke deal went bad in the neighborhood and a guy was shot in the gut with bird shot. It sucked, but he lived. He was not incapacitated however, just a severe flesh wound.

Try your phone book test with some Hornady 00 TAP. 8 pellets at 1600fps. Like your bird shot, those are man shot. 000 Federal Magnums are better, but you'll have a mess to clean up. Winchester also makes the PDX round, buck and slug. The 'ole all purpose marching load of yore, but more modern.

For greater damage, I can't imagine anything that compares to the Hexolit 32 fragmenting steel slugs, supposedly 36mm entrance wounds and instant kills to COM. Get 'em while you can!

The shotgun is THE most fierce shoulder fired weapon available for close range combat IF you can handle it. Reduced power LE 00 buckshot may be better for HD. I used to depend on a Mossberg 500 until I started waking up with severe shoulder pain, now I use an M4 and M193 ball.

Note the shotgun was so fearsome on the battlefield in trench warefare during WWI that the Germans said if we didn't stop using them, they'd execute several of our soldiers for every one of their's we shot with a trench gun. They didn't care about the machine guns, but the shotgun, that was too much too far.
 
FWIW, I think Massad Ayoob said that #1 buck is the optimum defense load. The Seals used #4 buck in full auto Remington 11-87 shotguns to break ambushes in Vietnam. Consider that one magnum #4 buck load has 41 pellets and is for killing deer at close range. Personally, I still think the Hornady TAP is right on the money. Good groups too. The PDX is good, but only at close range because the pellets tend to fly at range since they loaded them on top of the slug instead of under it.

Army still issues plain jane 00 buckshot, except for specialty rounds like breaching (although we just used slugs for that!).
 
Mansions have nothing to do with it.....my 1300sf home has a straight line possible shot of over 60 feet - just the way things are sometimes

ahhh, one of those 20' x 60' "shotgun" houses ... aptly named!
 
Strykervet:...The Seals used #4 buck in full auto Remington 11-87 shotguns to break ambushes in Vietnam....
Ummmmm........the Remington 11-87 was introduced in 1987, some fifteen odd years after US involvement in Vietnam ended.:D

I think you meant Remington 1100
 
This debate, no doubt,will go on forever.
I wont get into my hog story tonight but the OP can search one of my recent posts to read what a 20 gauge with low brass #8 can do.
I would not recomend bird shot for self defense but none the less it has a strong potential at less than 20 feet to be quite lethal on a human being or for that matter two feral hogs.
 
Most people don't live in a mansion so the typical range in a house would generally be 15' or less by the time you add for barrel length and stand off from the walls due to furniture and other house hold items. At that range bird shot is quite lethal, esp from a full or modified choke shotgun.

Larger shot is better for penetration and range. BB of the lead or heavi-shot variety is quite good. BB was the preferred load for jungle warfare by ROK troops in Vietnam who bought shotguns and shells from a friend of mine who brought them in on supply runs. Said they wouldn't take buckshot, only BB bird shot. He would sell them a shot gun and case of shells he bought at the PX in Japan and hand them a hack saw. They'd cut the barrel off at the end of the magazine tube and they where good to go.
At 15'/5 yds it doesn't matter whether you fire it from a cylinder bore or an extra full turkey choke the expansion will be almost identical...Your spread will be about 2.5/3" to about 5.5/6" about the size of a softball for a visual reference.

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The thing is, nobody has defined what bird shot is?

Where does #F, #TT, #T, #BBB fit in? They're also called bird shot--actually transitional shot.

Yo Mama -- I can absolutely guarantee you that at 10 yds a load of #2 or of #BB fired COM will kill you dead, yet they are still labeled bird shot...At 5 yds a load of #3 or #4 will also put you in your grave.

Lower sized shot then that and/or further distances I wouldn't trust to be consistently lethal.

Maybe we should change it to be small bird shot is for the birds.
 
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Depends on how big is your house. If its a mansion type, get you the 00 Bk.If its in an apartment or trailer type, a NO 4 buck or BB is the way to go. Of course a handgun is ideal, fast and easy to aim.
 
Never can understand why people think that firing a handfull of BBs is adequate for self defense....

To answer the OP, use Buckshot or Slugs. Adequate to take down medium game = great for self defense. Of course the slugs will overpenetrate significantly so beware especially if you're in an urban or populated area...
 
1600 ft lbs hitting you in the chest is going to make you think twice no matter what the circumstance. Is it ideal from a penetration standpoint? no. Effective for defending a suburban home from a midnight break-in? Well, that's a personal question and depends on you.
 
I use the LE low recoil loads in OO buck. Its a proven load. When I was a fed we had the #4 buck load for a while. Went back to OO buck as #4 did not work out at ranges over 15 yards. Should be OK for HD but I want the deeper penetration of the OO. Just my .02.
 
If there's a reason to use birdshot in your HD shotgun I'm sure it would be much better than nothing. A face full of tiny #6 sized holes is likely to change anybody's immediate plans.

However, there are much better choices. I use #4 buckshot. Others use bigger shot.

However, I don't understand using slugs. Why not use a rifle?
 
Never can understand why people think that firing a handful of BBs is adequate for self defense....

To answer the OP, use Buckshot or Slugs. Adequate to take down medium game = great for self defense. Of course the slugs will over penetrate significantly so beware especially if you're in an urban or populated area...
At what range? Within 10 yards--they're probably dead and within 5 yds they are...Beyond, they would be seriously wounded...Considering that the FBI statistics have most encounters happening with 7 yds, it makes sense...Mind you, I'd never use anything smaller then #2 bird--just not trustworthy enough...There just isn't enough mass, per pellet, for preferred penetration.

One Ounce of shot.........Equivalent
Pellets.....Wght Per/gr........Shot

01.............437.499
03.............145.833.............#0000
06..............72.917.............#000
08..............54.687.............#00
09..............48.611.............#0
10..............43.750.............#1
12..............36.458.............#2
20...............7.292.............#4
46...............1.585.............#BB
KNOW THY ENEMY™©

Then again, what good is buck at 40+ yards, they'd have to be very unlucky miscreants to even be hit by a pellet...So there are limitations to your wonderful buck as well.

Dimensions of Coverage............. per #00 Pellet
circle…circum.....area..........9 Pellet....12 Pellet per inch²

05"…......15.70…..….19.64..........2.182.........1.637
10"…......31.42…..….78.54..........8.727.........6.545
15"…......47.12…....176.72........19.636.......14.727
20"…......62.83…..…314.16........34.907.......26.180
30"…......94.25…..…706.86........78.540.......58.905
40"….....125.66…..1256.64.......139.627.....104.720
KNOW THY ENEMY™©

EFFECTIVE PATTERN DIMENSIONS (Expressed in Inches of Diameter)
YARDAGE……10…..20……25……30…..40
Spreader…,..….23…….27…….44….….51….….66
Cylinder…..…...20…….32…….38….….44….….57
Imp Cyl…..…….15…….26…….32….….38….….51
Modified…..……12…….20…….26……..32….….46
Full………..……..09…….16…….21….….26….….40
KNOW THY ENEMY™©
 
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You'll read anywhere that birdshot shouldn't be used for HD. Load up some #4 or 00 buck and shoot a phonebook at close range, then post the results. Comparing birdshot with buckshot is like comparing a .22 with a .357.
 
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