Shotgun in Katrina-like scenario

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I agree with just about everyone on here; all answers are valid. If I answer your concern strictly, however, I'd have to say one of three choices.

I like the shotgun as the base go-to weapon for its advantage in a close fighting; i.e., you can use the stock itself in a struggle -- a handgun cannot do that.

1 -- If it's a situation where you might have to leave your house AND there were NO LIMITATIONS on what one could buy: the HK MP7 Personal Defense Weapon (although it is an automatic assault rifle and not available) has close quarters concealability and the power of a rifle round -- a hybrid of the MP5 and a high caliber battle rifle.

2 -- Now, back to reality -- Because we can't get anything we want, the next desirable scenario is to have a concealable handgun PLUS a short barrel pump that you could carry easily and even possibly conceal in the right pack.

3 -- If I had to choose one weapon in a scenario where I didn't have to go out of my house but people were coming to get me inside my house: the Saiga 12 with high cap. mag. is the most devastating response imaginable.

And a Thompson Submachine Gun waiting in the wings wouldn't hurt:D
 
The month is young, yet the incoming mail has brought warnings from two sources I respect that some preparations for the gathering storm are in order. First came the May issue of S.W.A.T. magazine ( http://www.swatmag.com/ ), with Louis Awerbuck's column this month titled "Storm On The Horizon." Today appears Richard Maybury's US and World Early Warning Report ( www.chaostan.com ), with a reference to a Subscriber Bulletin on the website titled "Prepare For The Coming Riots." Maybury knows more about stocks and mutual funds than firearms, but he likes shotguns. Awerbuck is a past master with small arms in general, but if he's famous for anything, it's for instructing in the social shotgun.

So, Nick, it seems you are in reasonably good company in considering a serious scattergun.

The biggest problem with shotguns in the sort of situation you're talking about is that, as Louis puts it, "No magazine is ever big enough." The answer to that is IMHO a software solution and not a hardware purchase. The solution to relative low magazine capacity is learning how to load the gun on the fly. It's often referred to as "shoot one, load one." Learning how the gun patterns with a given load at different ranges is critical. Learning which slug load it likes best is critical. All these things take a certain amount of practice at minimum, and some training will definitely speed up the learning curve. Your ability to effectively use whatever shotgun you get is far more important than whichever shotgun you choose.

figure I can saw it off and it could make for good handgun

Best figure some more. Cutting a shotgun down that short is going to make it awfully difficult to manage in the practical sense, and awfully illegal in the legal sense. You want a sidearm, get a sidearm, no matter how many hoops you have to jump through to do it.

hth,

lpl
 
Great thread. I have always lived in South Florida. When I was young, hurricanes Betsy, Donna, etc. Later on. Andrew (the worst), and Wilma, etc.

I follow several essential rules. I stay in my home, as it is strong and away from the water. I put up the shutters and batten down the hatches. I ensure that I and my family have enough basic supplies to last at least one week with no outside help. This includes non perishable food, water, water and water. Two, help my neighbors, and they help me. Assume that no phones, including mobile ones, or power or water will work. Have a radio and/or battery powered TV. Make sure you have any medicines you need. And enough gasoline, and more gasoline and more gasoline, for both cars and a good generator, which will make your life much more bearable, as you will get some lights, cooking, refrigeration and perhaps even a little air or some fans. Lock up the generator when not in use, so it is not easily stolen.

Now, regarding defense. I have several guns. After a hurricane, I have never felt the need for more than a handgun, especially if you work with your neighbors. But I also have a shotgun, if the need should arise. After Andrew, many homes put up signs that said, "looters will be shot". This seemed to have some effect.

The bottom line is, a situation like we had after Andrew for many weeks, gives you an appreciation that the time could come where you must depend on only yourself, your family and neighbors. You can't call the police, or emergency, or anyone. Most roads are blocked, so you may not even be able to get out for many days. You have to live on what you have at hand. I always found that the aftermath is always much worse than the storm itself.
 
Dear DavionMaximus,

I couldn't agree with you more. I went through a situation where a couple of Tornados ripped through our area and everything as you know it is just fouled up. The first thing you think about after the initial shock is we have got to get this cleaned up ASAP. I couldn't agree more with your assessment regarding the handgun. I would however have my rifles and shotguns at the ready inside my house JIC someone came looking to take what was mine or harm or rape anyone in my family. Clean up after something like that usually takes months if not a year to put things back to some normalcy.
 
King Ghidora

No, I think New Orleans has enough home grown gangs. i know the causeway was out over Pontchartrain, wasn't easy to get into NO after that storm. New Orleans is the worst city I can think of to get trapped in with the power down. The police are corrupt, there's a LOT of gangs and drugs, and the city government is corrupt and incompetent. Nice place to party, but.....:D That and the fact that it is built underwater, well, it's the worst hurricane target on the gulf coast IMHO. Lots of towns from Virginia to Florida to the Rio Grande have gotten hit by storms. The only place it seems to be an excuse for rape and pillaging is New Orleans. Part of that is the quality of the government and police force, part is the quality of some of the citizenry, present company excluded. Just call 'em like I see 'em.

There are other towns that have had violence for other reasons, though. Just because you don't live on the coast don't mean you don't need to be prepared, especially if you live in a large municipality with gangs about, and what municipality now days doesn't have gangs about? I really don't wanna get into a political tirade on this thread, though.

Me, I keep a side by side next to the bed and my handgun in my pocket 24/7 and I don't even live NEAR a major city. You can't totally trust your fellow man even in a small town even when there isn't a storm or something. I ain't really in to tacticool shotguns and am good with what I hunt with, so I don't feel the need for a sawn off pump of some kind. My shotgun is mainly for safe room security. I have a Mossberg pump, my favorite waterfowl gun. I've never had the plug out of the magazine since I bought it. I can't recommend to the OP a side by side for this application, probably not for the unpracticed. But, it works for me. I got it for dove hunting, but it also works fine for safe room security. It's a 20 gauge coach gun and I load it with number 3 buckshot.
 
a fire fight that might be too close for a rifle

There is no such fire fight. If you are confronting multiple assailants at more than contact range, a good carbine is the way to go. Compared to a shotgun, it holds more rounds, has less recoil, is more accurate, and will defeat SBA, unlike buckshot. Shotguns are versatile in that almost anything can be hunted with them, but they are only ideal for small game.

As far as "battle rifles", these rifles fire full power cartridges such as .308, .30-06, 7.62x54mm, .303, and 7x57mm. Many of us use a semiauto version of a military assault rifle. These fire intermediate cartridges such as the .223, 7.62x39mm, etc.

I've seen what the real pros use, and when it comes to clearing houses, it ain't an M-14. It also was very rarely a shotgun.

John
 
-- If it's a situation where you might have to leave your house AND there were NO LIMITATIONS on what one could buy: the HK MP7 Personal Defense Weapon
I'll have to disagree. It's only .177 caliber.
 
I live in the country. I worry about electrical power, so I have a great auxililary generator. I worry about protecting my home and land from perpetrators, so I carry whenever I'm outside.

If I am working, for example to repair/clean up from a natural disaster, I will not be able to carry a long gun of any sort. So, I always carry a sidearm regardless of the activity I am performing.

Always carry a sidearm is my look at it, also if I need more firepower in specific situations I will resort to my shotgun/AR backup plans. But, those plans are only for around/in my home.
 
Pump shotgun with 18" barrel

"The sound of a Pump action Home Defense 12 gauge is worth a thousand words." And you can Quote me on that. Backup courtesy of .357 Magnum Taurus.
 
No one ever hear of a sling? Put your handgun in the holster, sling your shotgun across your back and go to work, if SHTF hard and fast retreat into the house and get the rifles. Or ya know keep the rifle on your back and go to the house for the shotgun. Kinda a personal preference there. A 1 gun plan is a plan to fail.

If the world was going into loot and shoot mode all around me I wouldn't really worry about a downed tree or two in my yard unless they were proving to be an immediate threat. Part of common sense to keep them cut back from you home far enough to avoid damage from them simply falling over. I also wouldn't give 2 ****s what the neighbors thought. If there scared let em hide and hope.
 
A couple of folks have ask me via PMs:

Why did you choose the single shot shotgun, .38spl revolvers, and .22 rifles?

First off, I was born in the 50's, we did not have early warning systems, no 911, much less cell phones or other new technologies.

Folks had supplies, just how raised and what you do. WE never heard of "bug out bags" when I was coming up. Not even with Civil Defense Drills we did all the time, and it seems to me, we did more CD drills, than Fire Drills.

I have been through too many tornadoes, the flooding, and fires that come with them.

I have also been through Floods, and Fires.

Tornadoes will take away gun safes, guns, supplies and equipment. This is why folks had supplies not only at home, also in areas such as Churches, Schools, a Business, Warehouse...etc.

I know, last year (2008) not one, but 3 of my off site locations were nailed. I lost a helluva lot!


So as a kid I was Mentored as I was. Bigger cities are busy, rural and semi rural have to fend for themselves.

-Folks get hurt either due to Serious Situation, or during the cleanup, and trying to get lives back in order.

Single Shot Shotguns, and Medium Frame dedicated .38spls are easy to operate, and to make sure they are safe
If you are hurt, you are hurt!

WE do a lot of Youth Single Shots, in 20 ga, as the shells are yellow, and easy to see in dim light. Add, one can carry more 2 3/4" 20 ga shells, than 12 ga.

Adults have to take a break, get some shut eye, be attended to if hurt...etc.

A kid, a teenager, can handle keeping up with a Single Shot Youth 20 bore.
WE were raised right, kids knew gun safety and everything.

Kids, Teenagers, Adults, Elderly, Physically Limited... can also handle that medium frame dedicated .38spl and that Youth 20 bore.

Hey, we used to get good used Police Trade ins, at a good price. Less monies than a .357, ...etc.

If you are hurt, you are hurt. So loading a magazine, or racking a slide, might be difficult.


I know all too well about looters coming through to a devastated area after dark, firing shots from moving vehicles in hopes of "running off" folks so they could steal things.
Rural and Semi Rural have tractors, and other equipment.
Some looters will hitch up a trailer, and run to areas hit and pick up such items.

Hit a barn and get saddles, and other items...

I was not yet a teenager , and had the best angle and Mentors said "shoot": and I made hits with 20 ga slugs to turn a lead vehicle around that was shooting our way.
Caravan of looters, shooting and had verbally stated intent...

Folks that heard my shots, thought I was running a pump gun...


-Some areas hit, are next to NO Firearms locations.
Meaning, near land owned by the Military, or Hunting Area, and all sorts of places where one either cannot have a gun , or if they do, that gun has to be unloaded.

Back in the day, Military places were a bit more lenient. So if due to Serious Weather, we needed to use a road, they would let us. They just asked we unload the guns first.
Nice folks, understanding, helpful. Still we needed access as maybe a road was out, or a bridge blocked, whatever.
At least in a way using land access of Military, worked as a Security thing for those hit.

It is easy to unload, make safe single shot shotguns, revolvers, and lever action rifles.

Easy to get back into action to.

-The .22 rim-fire pistol, and rifle plays a big role.

Folks get hurt. Some may have physical limits such as Osteo, or detached retinas, or shoulder, neck, back surgeries...problems...NO RECOIL orders by Doctors and Physical Therapists.

Hey, if a person is hurt, I am not going to hand them something that Recoils, that might cost an eye, or paralyze them. It is best to err on the side of caution.

Get some gal far along expecting a baby...and it might be best she use a .22.

First, do no harm.

Of course the .22 takes care of pests, small game, and works for a signal if need as well.


-In 2008, I used a Model 94, in 30-30, and this gun shoots best with 170 grainers.
Iron sights, simple leather sling.

I was Mobile, running the properties during all the tornadoes that ripped through, and more than once.
I carried a concealed handgun, and kept a .22 semi auto pistol in the truck I was using.

This carbine is not dependent on a magazine, is easy to tote, and works from "right here" to "out yonder a bit".

This was not my first rodeo, so for me, I have found what Mentors passed onto me, still works.

Shotguns and those revolvers were used as well by others. Since I and others had been hit, meaning supplies, we had to make do a time or two with what we had.

This is where Mindset, Skillsets, then Toolsets come into play.

One tornado removed a safe, with guns, knives and other equipment. It was found later, in a field about a quarter of a mile away.

Another safe, and equipment, was under water, so that supply was out of commission.

I assure you, these folks were mighty appreciative of some "antiquated" tools, such as single shot shotguns, revolvers, .22 rimfire, and non locking, no clip, no assist opening pocket knives and Old Hickory knives.


I have been through riots and civil un-rests. Situations where firebombs are tossed toward porches, and roofs and ...

It is dim, or dark, you shoot the firebomb to keep it from setting fire to structures.
Simple shotguns, using correct basic fundamentals of shotgunning.
The firebomb is felled into the street, or someplace more safe, and the mob, gets the message, some folks are prepared, and do know how to defend against multiple types of threats.

Hey, Mentors and I used shotguns without a bead to fell these. Our shotguns fit us, and we knew what loads did, as we had patterned our guns.
WE shot a lot of skeet, a 4" or so target that runs 55 mph, and even today, many clay shooters, with custom shotguns, do not have a bead installed - on purpose.

So it was not really that big of a deal. Really.
WE had been in competitions, where a bead fell off a shotgun and we did not realize it, until it was pointed out to use.

Firebomb, clay, dove, quail, duck...focus on the target, and just shoot the darn thing using correct fundamentals of shotgunning.

Can't buy it, gotta earn it.

My suggestion is to Investigate & Verify what works for you, for your environment, and tasks.

Ain't none of us gonna be with you when Serious Hits...

Do consider...
Breaking it down to the most simple, as simple , simply works.
 
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I know in today's world with tons of civilian legal 'tactical' shotguns available...whoops, I just woke up and realized that we're in the Obama crunch; let me offer a cost effective method to make a pseudo-tactical shotgun from a bird popper; find an old field barrel (like one that may sit in your closet or the back room of a gun shop), have it cut to just over 18", place a new bead on it, buy a buttstock cuff to hold spare rounds, and combine with your favorite buckshot load;

also, keep a handgun readily available as a backup or primary if your shotgun is out of reach
 
I'd definitely want a concealed weapon. Don't want to attract attention outside of my residence. J Frame, LCP, or PM9 in the pocket or a good IWB holster and a compact pistol. IWB at the 4 o'clock position while carrying a backpack will make most pistols invisible.

As for inside the home, a pump shotgun rack may be enough to spin a looter on his heals. No need to shoot someone at 200yds if you don't even know their intent. I couldn't imagine shooting anyone that wasn't trying to break in. You wouldn't need a carbine for that.
 
My racks are not that loud. These guns are well taken care of and work pretty quietly. I guess I can aggressively rack it and make the weapon talk in metallic terms before having to shoot a looter.

My thinking is somewhat different. Many of you choose to stay in the home post disaster? Why am I feeling stupid for thinking the following.

Property can be replaced. Lives cannot.

Lands and Homes can be rebuilt but better to take money and relocate to no hurricane areas and build new home there.

Looters are a constant 24/7 stressor item in life, you cannot be awake 24/7 for more than 5 days. (Ive gone 6 once or twice trucking and became a zombie.)

Why stress trying to stay in a zone of trouble> Isnt it easier to get out of the area and stay away for a few weeks?

Ice storms for us is the main thing, we have drills in place for that knock on the door when there is no power or water operating because there are supplies on hand for several people for a good period of time, making us a target.
 
Listen to the posts above from those that were there. I was there a little late but didn't miss the show.

It was a mess but it was still Nola. It's a bad idea to go wandering around with a long arm on your shoulder. That just makes you a target for criminals wanting to make a name for themselfs or an overzelous officer trying to make a name for himself.

And as said above most of the gangs were local. Just regular run of the mill nola thugs. Just a nother day in Nola (its a happy place :barf:) . I moved back north as well to get away from that trash. That's no area to raise a familly.

A CCW pistol is still the way to go. A shotgun at home is still useful for home defense just don't go waving it around. Outside of home, trying to hit the road or abandoning your house until troubles done passing through, a rifle, like a LMT or Colt AR15, is a much better choice than the shotgun. But still, keep it concealed in your car/home.

Try to blend in with the sheep, you'll last longer that way. A CCW is still by far your best bet just as it is today. Allthough its allways good to have a rifle nearby.
 
the HK MP7 Personal Defense Weapon (although it is an automatic assault rifle and not available) has close quarters concealability and the power of a rifle round -- a hybrid of the MP5 and a high caliber battle rifle.

Wait what? High caliber? The MP-7 uses a 4.6x30mm cartridge. I doubt that it would be more powerful than say .308 or .30-06.
300px-4.6x30mm%2C_5.7x28mm%2C_.30_M1_Carbine.jpg
From left to right, 4.6x30mm, 5.7x28mm, and .30 Carbine
 
Yup, thats just a pistol caliber subgun.

A FN PS90 sbr'ed would fill the shoes of an MP7 and then some, if your looking for a PDW. Perfectly legal, small, light, reliable. Semiauto, but it shoots fast enough as is. Slap an Aimpoint in a Tros. mount and your set.
 
I was in Charlotte County, Florida when Hurricane Charley struck. Utter devastation! :eek:
The response from the general public was heartwarming. Neighbor helping neighbor for at least a year after the storm. The National Guard helping everybody. No need for guns at any time.
There were a few arrests for breaking the dusk-to-dawn curfew, but, do you know who nearly all those arrestees turned out to be? Nicotine and beer addicts who heard rumors that there was a convenience store open somewhere which had power and their beloved cigarettes and beer and decided to go looking. That's all. No looters!
Of course, Charlotte County is not New Orleans!
Now, back to the subject at hand. As far as a SHTF shotgun goes, you must remember who'll you'll be dealing with in a worst-case scenario. These will not be battle-hardened, disciplined troops, or even warrior-culture fanatics in human wave attacks.
Your enemy will be rabble who will scatter like quail the moment they realize they are facing an armed opponent who isn't afraid to kill. In my opinion, it won't matter what you are firing at them, just as long as you hit, or almost hit, at least one of them.
If I were buying my first shotgun, I'd just go for a nice sporting semi or pump with two barrels, one for wingshooting, and a shorter slug barrel for home defense. No need for anything tacticool.
Then, I would take my longer barrel to my local sporting clays club and, ahem... have a blast! :D
You'll have great fun and hone your skills at the same time. If the day comes when you can break a majority of speeding clay pigeons, then you'll be able to deal with banzai charges of multitudes of SHTF looters without breaking a sweat! ;)
 
I want a side-by-side. I was just looking at them in the Gun yearly review magazine and it confirms something I suspected all along; they are awesome. Plus if I need to conceal something in a Katrina like scene -- I figure I can just get a hack saw and take-it-to-it. I think hand guns are a PITA to get legally by me.

Can anyone advise me on which older double barrel to get? The new ones in the review publication are expensive.

Also about the ammo. . . . I guess 00 is good for slugs like taking out at somewhat longer distances with an SG. What ammo should I get for in home protection? By the looks of things I'm going to be moving to an apt building. So I don't need anything that'll penetrate a wall.
 
Whatever firearm you choose for your next disaster, make sure you know how to use it. Invest in professional classes, not just tacticool firearms and cases of ammo.
One thing that many people do not realize is that your better classes spend a lot of time covering not only how to use your firearm but when to use your firearm. The obvious situations, such as someone attempting to rape another, do not require a lot of cognition. However, many situations fall into the "gray" area, and if you make a mistake it will be something you have to live with for the rest of your life.
 
One thing that many people do not realize is that your better classes spend a lot of time covering not only how to use your firearm but when to use your firearm. The obvious situations, such as someone attempting to rape another, do not require a lot of cognition. However, many situations fall into the "gray" area, and if you make a mistake it will be something you have to live with for the rest of your life.
Excellent advice - thanks for posting this.
 
Shotguns like that, without a stock, or supposedly difficult to shoot well. Use one with a stock.
I guess 00 is good for slugs like taking out at somewhat longer distances with an SG.
A double barrel will probably not work with slugs, the 2 bbls will shoot to different points


Adults have to take a break, get some shut eye, be attended to if hurt...etc
A kid, a teenager, can handle keeping up with a Single Shot Youth 20 bore..
However, I still believe that if you can afford it, it's better if the adults have a repeating shotgun, in case one shot doesn't stop. (It might not, even with very good shot placement) And a repeater will have a little less recoil.



It is easy to unload, make safe single shot shotguns, revolvers, and lever action rifles.
I'm not sure I understand. Why would a lever action rifle be easier to make safe than a repeating shotgun? Although it might be slightly simpler than an 870, it still wouldn't be easier than a semi-auto.
 
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Hard to shot well............Really....??

i've never had a problem.

The nice thing about the "JIC" is that the tube floats and can be used as a form of swimming devise if you need...........we are talking about a survival situation here.........right?

Of course a rifle stock has more control.............but in that kind of scenario i'd rather have something easily carried and multipurpose.
 
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