Pump shotgun: The last effective defensive tool?

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natedog

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Many people (myself included) regard the shotgun, pump action or semi-automatic, to be the best longarm for under 40 yards or so (close range). Looking at the way gun control has progressed, semi-automatic centerfire rfiles have been restricted, handguns have been restricted, and semi-shoutguns have been restricted...but the pump gun remains untouched. Perhaps it is because pump guns are so universally accepted as a hunting arm, I don't know. Wouldn't you agree that a pump action shotgun will be one of the few effective defensive tools untouched by future legislation (all this is hypothetical, of course)? I mean, look at NYC...possibly the most oppresive gun laws in the nation. You need a permit to buy a handgun, shotgun, or rifle, and semi-auto rifles in all forms have been banned. Yet pump action shotguns (with the proper paperwork) are still allowed.
 
To me, it seems more likely to be that a militia armed with such a slow ROF shortrange weapon would prove to be little threat.

But that's just bitter little me.
 
I think the pump gun will eventually fall prey to the capacity and stock restrictions as on other fireamrs. No collapsable or plain pistol grip stocks and no more than five rounds. I could live with this as it doesn't effect my usage/defense too much but I still think it's a start on the wrong road. Actually, it would be more like halfway down the wrong road.:mad:
 
natedog.....
"and semi-auto rifles in all forms have been banned."
this is not a fact ....it is pretty bad here in nyc but we can own many semi auto rifles....mag capacity must be 5 rounds or less:(
 
By the way....the same "paperwork" is required for all long arms in nyc
 
All it would take to add pump guns to the list of what we cannot have is one Zapout w/ pumpgun in a school, airport, courthouse,or other public place.

I doubt pumps will remain immune for long even without a tragic incident.

Something we should all remember. Control freaks never rest. They are driven to seek power like moths to flame. Knowing, armed folks are mighty hard to control.
Ignorant, defenseless peasants are much easier to rule.Anyone obsessed with power knows this.

"Power grows from the barrel of a gun"- Chairman Mao.

" At all times be armed"- Machiavelli.

"Make your gun the companion of your walks"- Jefferson.


Politicians and others who seek to rule us,even for what they think are the best of reasons, are out to gain control.

Gun control is not about guns.It's about control, and the sooner we let elected officials know how we feel about only the government having weapons, the better off we'll be.

Vote on your way to the range to teach a new shooter.

Vote at the polls, and let those who run for office with the slogan "Not afraid to take on the NRA" learn fear.

And as one on this board uses as his signature does, know that giving up the right to arms is a mistake free people only get to make once....
 
In 1923, John Moses Browning designed his last shotgun, the Superposed over and under, in the belief that it is the repeater type least likely to be banned for civilian ownership. Today, the British Shotgun certificate generously allows its holder to possess pump-action and self-loading shotguns, provided that they have a magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges. As in so many other ways, JMB was also prescient politically.
 
At the risk of hi-jacking the thread I'll bring up New Zealand's gun laws. We have fairly restrictive gun laws by US standards, but better than UK or Australian. I'll paraphrase them here as a warning to all of you who enjoy greater freedoms.

A licence is required by all who wish to own firearms. You must be a "right and proper person" .... that is you go thru a vetting process. Things that may invalidate you as a firearms licence holder are firearms offences, history of mental illness, history of violent crime, history of anti-social or violent behaviour, drugs offences, etc. You must show that you can securely store firearms and you must attend a training course and pass an exam that shows you understand the principles of safe firearms handling.

Once you get a licence (it lasts 10 years BTW and includes photo ID) you can buy, own and use any rifle or shotgun except military styled semi-automatic weapons (MSSAs). For MSSAs, you need to have an endorsement on your licence which involves a more in-depth background check, better security for storage and you must show a need for MSSAs. A MSSA is defined as a semi-auto centrefire weapon with the capacity (or the appearance of the the capacity) for greater than 7 rounds of ammo, a free pistol grip, flash hider and/or bayonet lug. A semi-auto rimfire rifle with the capacity for 15 rounds or more is also a MSSA by definition.

To own handguns you must be an active member of a pistol club and must demonstrate to the clubs satisfaction that you can and do safely handle handguns. The club then recommends to the police that you are elligible for a hangun endorsement on your licence. Once again background checks, secure storage and you may only transport your handguns between home, club and gunsmith. You must apply for a permit to procure each handgun.

Under no circumstances are you permitted to use a firearm in self or home defense, however, if that was tested in court it is likely that under mitigating circumstances you may get away with the use of a firearm in self defense.

Even under all these rules, pump action shotguns are not singled out for special attention. All shotguns used for waterfowl must be pinned to two shots, but other than that, pump guns are left untouched ...... just don't dare use them for home defense!! Even presenting a firearm and/or brandishing it at a burglar will land you behind bars .... at least temporarily.

For some reason pump guns are not considered to be "evil bringers of destruction" in New Zealand like semi-autos are ..... interestingly, neither are lever guns.

Spinner
 
Officially, you are only entitled to ask them to leave or to stay where they are while you call the police. By law, you can't even touch them or detain them (assault).

Seriously ....... that's what our law makers expect you to do.

The cops on the other hand ..... ;)

My girlfriend (now my wife) was being stalked by an ex-boyfriend. He got himself well liquored up one night and decided to enter her house and set a few things straight. What he didn't count on was I was there too. He smashed a glass panelled door to get in whereupon I grabbed and "subdued" him. When the cops turned up they took statements and all and I told the cop that I'd simply restrained him despite the fact that I wanted to smack him for being stoopid. The cop told me that as far as he was concerned I was welcome to beat the stuffing outa the guy before they arrived, he wouldn't have seen a thing ... but officially that was a big no-no.

Spinner
 
Officially, you are only entitled to ask them to leave or to stay where they are while you call the police. By law, you can't even touch them or detain them (assault).
That is amazing. You have my sympathies for living amongst so many blissninnies. it sounds like a VERY good placed to be a criminal though. :)
 
Officially, you are only entitled to ask them to leave or to stay where they are while you call the police. By law, you can't even touch them or detain them (assault).
That is amazing. You have my sympathies for living amongst so many blissninnies. it sounds like a VERY good placed to be a criminal though. :)
Amazing as it is, the entitlement to self-defense and the bearing of arms essential thereto cannot be withdrawn through a legislative fiat in any common law jurisdiction such as the British Commonwealth or the U.S.A. The following case law is rooted in the Catholic doctrine of double effect as laid down by Augustine, Aquinas, and Grotius, and reflects the reasoning dating back to Lord Coleridge in the case of Regina v. Dudley & Stephens. It has been personally field tested in California. Doubtless its counterparts exist in New Zealand.

"The necessity defense is very limited and depends on the lack of a legal alternative to committing the crime. It excuses criminal conduct if it is justified by a need to avoid an imminent peril and there is no time to resort to the legal authorities or such resort would be futile." (People v. Beach (1987) 194 Cal.App.3d 955, 971.) "By definition, the necessity defense is founded upon public policy and provides a justification distinct from the elements required to prove the crime." (People v. Heath (1989) 207 Cal.App.3d 892, 900-901.) "Necessity does not negate any element of the crime, but represents a public policy decision not to punish such an individual despite proof of the crime." (Id. at p. 901.)

"To justify an instruction on the defense of necessity, a defendant must present evidence sufficient to establish that [she] violated the law (1) to prevent a significant and imminent evil, (2) with no reasonable legal alternative, (3) without creating a greater danger than the one avoided, (4) with a good faith belief that the criminal act was necessary to prevent the greater harm, (5) with such belief being objectively reasonable, and (6) under circumstances in which [she] did not substantially contribute to the emergency." (People v. Kearns (1997) 55 Cal.App.4th 1128, 1135.)

"We acknowledge that '[d]oubts as to the sufficiency of the evidence to warrant instructions should be resolved in favor of the accused.' (People v. Wilson (1967) 66 Cal.2d 749, 763 [59 Cal.Rptr. 156, 427 P.2d 820].)" People v. Patrick (1981) 126 Cal.App.3d 952

Notwithstanding the benefit of the doubt, the obvious disadvantage of this affirmative defense remains in subjecting the accused to the burden of presenting the evidence of necessity at trial.
 
Getting back on track...

*puts on tinfoil hat*

Pump shotguns, while effective for defense, are INeffective for assassinations. They are hard to conceal and must be used in relatively close quarters.

Whenever we think about political change, I can more easily envision a lone corrupt politican being hit from a few hundred yards away than a generalized rebellion. Thus I would MUCH rather have access to accurate rifles than to shotguns. While rifles have been and continue to be used for evil purposes (i.e., JFK/MLK shootings), they can also be used for good. The ability to selectively engage a target at 500, 600, or even 1000 yards has obvious repercussions to those who would enslave us.
 
As a home defense weapon, maybe.
As a general weapon to fight tyranny...
Well it is good enough to get you something better but I would rather have a rifle and a few hundred rounds to start out with.
 
getting back on track??

when i think of a "defense tool", reaching out and touching someone at 1000 yds and assasination don't really come to mind.

when i think of defense, i think of my home and family
 
Getting back on track... (The "track" doesn't have anything to do with long range precision rifles or assasinations; where did that come from?)

I agree that the pump shotgun will probably be one of the last to be banned (just before they get to over/under shotguns), however, sooner or later those that want control will decide that even short range, defensive tools which cannot be concealed must be more tightly controlled/banned. It's a matter of them working down their priority list (long range precision rifles are way higher on the "to be banned" list).

The AWB sunset is huge in that it sorta kinda resets the clock (except for those of us in states with our own AWB).
 
Sorry to hear that you live in such a...erm...backwards....place.

No, not backward per se ..... just further down the road of politically correct, ill-informed, scare-mongering, ignorant, sandal-wearing, tree-hugging, hippy crap, blissninnyism than some other places.

Do all that you can to make sure you don't end up the same!!

Spinner
 
Actually I don't believe the shotgun has as of yet been able to realize it's full combat potential. Given the urban enviroment of Iraq, the Marine units that a friend of mine's brother is in, 3 memebers of every urban assault squad are REQUIRED to carry a pump shotgun alongside their rifles. I think the Military in the U.S. is just starting to realize their effectiveness in urban situations.

As far as police raids on buildings and homes...the pump shotgun is king. There may be MP5s and M4s which look really cool and have their use...but the shotgun is the MUST have for any team. They are used for entry, defensive and offensive fire, less lethal projectile, and coiled rope launcher. The MP5? Defensive and offensive fire. M4? Strategic accurate fire. The MP5 and M4 are okay, but the first guy up and the last guy out is almost always the shotgunner.

My personal SHTF gun is a Remington 870. It does everything. Slugs up to 100 yards, fowling, urban assault, dwelling defensive, dwelling offensive etc. The pump is being replaced by a semi auto in the military, but I believe that is only because the Military wants to make it as fool proof as possible and a pump has more of a learning curve to deploy under fire.
 
Heed Spinner, where he is legality wise is just a little down the road from the rest of us.

As for defensive tools, those who fear guns in the hands of citizens do NOT want able to defend ourselves. They want us dependent on THEM for protection.

Ask a Holocaust survivor how well that works...
 
Didnt the school shooting in Scotland that promted the MASSIVE confiscation and increase in brittish gun laws involve a pump shotgun? Thats all it will take here.
 
NO, That Guy Used Handguns

C.Yeager

That guy, on March 13 1996 (Thomas Hamilton) drove into Dunblane Primary (Elementary) School armed with four handguns-2 being Browning Hi-Power 9mms;and the two were Smith and Wesson 586 .357s- and started to kill as many kids as possible. Teachers were also targeted,but after killing 17 kids and their teacher, the guy cocked one of his his 586s into single-action mode, put it into his mouth and blew his head off.

This is why we have a standard-handgun ban, not a repeating-shotgun ban, although the antis are still wanting these types of shotgun banned.
 
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