Why a Shotgun for Home Defense?
- Thread starter GunLvrNLearner
- Start date
- Status
earlthegoat2
Member
Im no lawyer, and Im also a big time *****. My question is this: Is there a time when you are better off legally just killing the intruder instead of potentially maiming the perp with birdshot?
Naturally Im talking about all other things being ideal such as only one shot fired, not in the back and that stuff.
Naturally Im talking about all other things being ideal such as only one shot fired, not in the back and that stuff.
RX-178
Member
I'm not trying to imply that a $500 handgun is better than a $60 shotgun.
I just mean, why would anyone EVER consider a rifle or a handgun OVER a shotgun, especially when you can get a perfectly usable shotgun for $60?
If you can afford more expensive, you can get an 870, or a Benelli, or whatever you can afford if that's what you want.
Shotguns are the most bang for the buck you will ever find, and that's why they're the best in HD, and that's also why more people teach how to use shotguns in HD, and why more people have the experience TO teach how to use shotguns in HD.
I just mean, why would anyone EVER consider a rifle or a handgun OVER a shotgun, especially when you can get a perfectly usable shotgun for $60?
If you can afford more expensive, you can get an 870, or a Benelli, or whatever you can afford if that's what you want.
Shotguns are the most bang for the buck you will ever find, and that's why they're the best in HD, and that's also why more people teach how to use shotguns in HD, and why more people have the experience TO teach how to use shotguns in HD.
Jeff B.
Member
My HD shotgun is a project gun (M500) , that now has an 8 round mag and 20" barrel. Shortly it should be duracoated. It'll be my first grab.
Jeff B.
Jeff B.
mljdeckard
Member
Earl the goat is absolutely right. If you think you can forsee which situations might justify "Lethal, somewhat lethal, and maybe lethal", and apply DEADLY force rules to using them, you are setting yourself up to get either killed or prosecuted. The law isn't forgiving on grey area for deadly force. If you try to say you shot to wound someone, you open yourself up to the possibility that deadly force wasn't justified at all. The law allows you to take action to defend yourself, even if it includes deadly force. It doesn't allow you to maim someone and HOPE they will live. It's the same thing as intentionally shooting someone in the knee.
If birdshot MIGHT do the job, now add in reality and Murphy. If your luck is like MINE, you will line up on an intruder with your birdshot, and he will be at a weird angle, left arm towards you, wearing a leather jacket, carrying something, at the top of the stairs. NOW do you wish you had something besides 7-1/2?
If birdshot MIGHT do the job, now add in reality and Murphy. If your luck is like MINE, you will line up on an intruder with your birdshot, and he will be at a weird angle, left arm towards you, wearing a leather jacket, carrying something, at the top of the stairs. NOW do you wish you had something besides 7-1/2?
mgkdrgn
Member
Well, one thing is for sure ... if you put the BG down there is only going to be ONE version of the story to deal with.
i wish more birdshot nuts would understand THIS part. sure, there might have been some instances where birdshot has worked and been very devistating to the perp. but the fact is, if im staring at a perp in my own house and he has a gun, id rather carry something that im 96% sure will work, and that is designed to take down animals bigger than humans. as opposed to something that might work given the 'right' circumstance, and is designed to kill tiny birds at close range.
for every effective birdshot story i hear, there are at least 3 that fail miserably
My HomeLand Security*** Shotgun is primed w/Rem 3" #4 Buckshot, 5 slugs in a butt-cuff. I have found that #4Buck patterns the best in MY shotgun...Your Mileage Will Vary.
I have the 18-1/2" barrel on it, so if some miscreant is able to grab the barrel, I have failed...they have gotten WAAAAAYY too close.
***Secures My Home & Land from those miscreants of felonious intent.
My Springfield Armory GI-45 is on the bedside table, Maverick 88 HLS under the bed. If I run those dry, next up the the Most Serious Artillery...The US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly Known as The Garand
I have the 18-1/2" barrel on it, so if some miscreant is able to grab the barrel, I have failed...they have gotten WAAAAAYY too close.
***Secures My Home & Land from those miscreants of felonious intent.
My Springfield Armory GI-45 is on the bedside table, Maverick 88 HLS under the bed. If I run those dry, next up the the Most Serious Artillery...The US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly Known as The Garand
Last edited:
wjh2657
Member
EDC (.38 Spl J-Frame) in a mattress holster and Maverick 88 Security with #4 Buck in Home Back Up bed bracket. Shotgun is preferred weapon, but pistol is available if bad guy gets too far before I wake up. House is "hardened" with double locks on both the storm doors and main doors and ADT is set on "STAY". I will probably have time to use shotgun. Why shotgun? because it is much more effective at stopping the BG. I'll talk to insurance folks later about damage in house. Actually, with the defensive set up in house I will more than likely be there alone with arriving police. Weapon should be last resort, prepare the house for assault.
Just have a silly question.
When people are talking about bird shot for HD, are they talking about the low brass or the high brass bird shot?
Hell I've shot plenty of squirel with low brass 7 1/2 and dam it took a long time for them to die. But then again I wasnt point blank on them either. But I was just wondering what type of bird shot people are useing? High or low?
Maybe a heavy turkey of duck load with bigger pellets would be better than 7 1/2
When people are talking about bird shot for HD, are they talking about the low brass or the high brass bird shot?
Hell I've shot plenty of squirel with low brass 7 1/2 and dam it took a long time for them to die. But then again I wasnt point blank on them either. But I was just wondering what type of bird shot people are useing? High or low?
Maybe a heavy turkey of duck load with bigger pellets would be better than 7 1/2
My theory is this. Police officers are mostly wonderful people who put themselves at risk daily to help protect the rest of us. Make things easier for the nice officer. If you have to shoot someone, make sure the nice officer only has ONE story to sort out.
On the question of "Why a shotgun instead of a handgun?" Someone on this site has an appropriate signature line- "A handgun isn't a weapon. It's a tool to get you back to the weapon you should have been carrying in the first place." Or some such.
John
ChallengerSE
Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2008
- Messages
- 1
High or low brass has absolutely NOTHING to do w/ the lethality of the round. "High brass" is a marketing gimmick left over from the days of paper hulls. There are even shells w/ no brass at all.
jhco
Member
cause it makes big holes in things
earlthegoat2
Member
Winchester Ranger 230 gr 45 ACP@914 fps: 426 ft-lbs
Remington Premier 55 gr 223 Remington@3240 fps: 1281 ft-lbs
Federal 000 Buckshot 8 pellets@1325 fps: 2176 ft-lbs
Federal 00 Buckshot 9 pellets@1325 fps: 1881 ft-lbs
Federal 4 Buckshot 34 pellets@1250 fps: 1917 ft-lbs
Federal 1 oz slug@1300 fps: 1642 ft-lbs
As can be seen the 000 load equaled the energy of a 45-70 round @ 1800fps.
Not to mention all the shotgun loads had more energy even than a double tap from the 45.
I think that this evidence of one shot fight stopping ability of the 12 bore is the reason to why a shotgun for home defense.
Remington Premier 55 gr 223 Remington@3240 fps: 1281 ft-lbs
Federal 000 Buckshot 8 pellets@1325 fps: 2176 ft-lbs
Federal 00 Buckshot 9 pellets@1325 fps: 1881 ft-lbs
Federal 4 Buckshot 34 pellets@1250 fps: 1917 ft-lbs
Federal 1 oz slug@1300 fps: 1642 ft-lbs
As can be seen the 000 load equaled the energy of a 45-70 round @ 1800fps.
Not to mention all the shotgun loads had more energy even than a double tap from the 45.
I think that this evidence of one shot fight stopping ability of the 12 bore is the reason to why a shotgun for home defense.
Homerboy
Member
I have two shotguns, and I think they are great HD guns, but when there is a bump in the night, I would grab my pistol (and I'm a retired cop). Why? The noise, flash, and smoke of a shotgun going off inside is EXTREMELY harsh. I heard one going off in the room next to me and it was overwhelming. My ears rang for days. If there is a motorcycle gang outside my door, I'll grab the shotgun, but for me, they are a seriously disorienting experience. Sure, my life is worth it, but I would opt for a pistol first. 9Mm hollowpoints going off are far less serious on the senses.
oneounceload
member
and the recoil to match that 45-70....
which in a light shotgun can be substantial and thus reduce the possibility of getting off a follow-up shotgnut
Member
to dave
99% stoppage with any load. Where can I read this report? If that is true I think I will have to rethink my own plans for "The Worst Day Of My Life". The 9mm I have in the closet has a percentage of around 80 to 90. Mr.870 may be the new king in this house.
I would love that report or a link.
Thanks
99% stoppage with any load. Where can I read this report? If that is true I think I will have to rethink my own plans for "The Worst Day Of My Life". The 9mm I have in the closet has a percentage of around 80 to 90. Mr.870 may be the new king in this house.
I would love that report or a link.
Thanks
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Can't get it. It was on a LE site I no longer can access.
You may try the FBI stats site.
You may try the FBI stats site.
earlthegoat2
Member
make sure your first shot hits then, or ignore my previous post and do whatever you want to
Or take the advice I advocate and use only low recoil rounds.
Or take the advice I advocate and use only low recoil rounds.
Can't sit still on this one any longer, I am running out of valium. I have been packing weapons for real since age 17(basic training). That was almost half a century ago. Still doing it.
When I need a gun I want a long gun. What kind of long gun depends on exactly what scenario I am going to be involved in.
For most of my careers I carried at least one long gun, many times it was a shotgun, sometimes it was a battle rifle or carbine. I always carried at least one handgun, usually two, usually 9mm or 45, sometimes a 38. At age 54 I humped an FAL, a BHP with snub BUG, a tiny 380 in a vest pocket, and a 14" 870 with a folder (to be deployed before shooting). Add to that a full load of ammo and my aging body was packing close to 80 pounds of all sorts of stuff. I would have given up the shotgun before the rifle, but would not have wanted to. The shotgun was for use inside structures where ranges were going to be 30 meters or less. Inside that range the shotgun rules, absolutely.
Don't anyone ever think that racking the action of a pump shotgun is ever going to stop anyone from doing anything. In the last month I have read 3 articles in gun magazines where so called knowledgeable authors each stated catagorically that the sound of the shotgun being racked will stop anyone bent on bad conduct, and/or cause them to need clean underwear. This is crap (pun intended). Bad guys would not be bad guys if they thought like good guys. I have dropped each of those magazines and sent the folks that publish them the reason why.
For my personal security I use shotguns. One at each entrance to my abode, concealed but available, I use buckshot, I prefer #4 for close in confrontations, and up the size as range goes up.
I would happily use a handgun if no shotgun was available. The stopping power of properly applied buckshot has to be seen to be believed. I fully agree that a shot gun will provide 99% one shot stops at HD ranges. On the other hand I once shot a guy 5 times between belt and neck with 00 buck and he did not go down till I clubbed with the gun, that was the only time I ever saw a more than one shot from a 12 gauge with buck being needed. The comparison between any handgun and a 12 gauge (or a 20 gauge for that matter) loaded with buck is just not in the same galaxy.
This does not mean that I disrespect anyone who chooses a handgun for HD, but we all need to face facts.
As far as weapon retention goes, you can retain a long gun much easier than a handgun, particularly if you have a regular stocked weapon that does not have a "pistol" grip. You can also use the long gun as a blunt weapon a lot more effectively than a handgun-as in vertical/horizontal butt stroke. Getting clocked with a long gun stock delivered by someone who has trained rudimentally is an eye opening/eye closing experience.
As sad as the fact may be, in the USA, if you are going to shoot someone, it is far far better for you if the shootee becomes deceased. You are of course shooting to stop an activity, not kill someone. But if there is only one story for the legal authorities to hear, so much the better.
If you are not prepared to take a life, you have no business with a gun. If you are not emotionally and mentally prepared for that scenario, I refer you to an auction site for your gun(s).
The aftermath of the most justified shooting will be onerous and most stressful. Be prepared to get sued in civil court, be prepared for the following events in addition to being sued:
1. The local press will have a headline something like "homeowner slays youth".
2. The mama of the deceased will be on TV saying "my boy wouldn't do that".
3. A teacher or relative of the deceased will describe him as "an honor student".
4. A shirt tail relative of the deceased will be on TV saying " he wanted to be a doctor and help people".
5. You and your gun will be subject to great scrutiny by the media and not a few legal scum trying to show that you were just a "wannabe commando" waiting with a weapon of mass destruction for your first opportunity to kill some minority group member(this is why "tacticool" weapons are NOT cool).
I am not trying to discourage anyone from defending themselves and their loved ones. I am just trying to suggest that there is more involved in a HD shooting than the technical aspects.
All my HD shotguns are inoffensive looking doubles, except my Browning BPS Buck Special, complete with an engraving of Bambi on the receiver. I have quite a collection of tactical weapons, including a few Class III weapons, but I don't want my photo in the paper next to a photo of my UZI with a 32 round mag hanging on it.
OK EOR (end of rant).
When I need a gun I want a long gun. What kind of long gun depends on exactly what scenario I am going to be involved in.
For most of my careers I carried at least one long gun, many times it was a shotgun, sometimes it was a battle rifle or carbine. I always carried at least one handgun, usually two, usually 9mm or 45, sometimes a 38. At age 54 I humped an FAL, a BHP with snub BUG, a tiny 380 in a vest pocket, and a 14" 870 with a folder (to be deployed before shooting). Add to that a full load of ammo and my aging body was packing close to 80 pounds of all sorts of stuff. I would have given up the shotgun before the rifle, but would not have wanted to. The shotgun was for use inside structures where ranges were going to be 30 meters or less. Inside that range the shotgun rules, absolutely.
Don't anyone ever think that racking the action of a pump shotgun is ever going to stop anyone from doing anything. In the last month I have read 3 articles in gun magazines where so called knowledgeable authors each stated catagorically that the sound of the shotgun being racked will stop anyone bent on bad conduct, and/or cause them to need clean underwear. This is crap (pun intended). Bad guys would not be bad guys if they thought like good guys. I have dropped each of those magazines and sent the folks that publish them the reason why.
For my personal security I use shotguns. One at each entrance to my abode, concealed but available, I use buckshot, I prefer #4 for close in confrontations, and up the size as range goes up.
I would happily use a handgun if no shotgun was available. The stopping power of properly applied buckshot has to be seen to be believed. I fully agree that a shot gun will provide 99% one shot stops at HD ranges. On the other hand I once shot a guy 5 times between belt and neck with 00 buck and he did not go down till I clubbed with the gun, that was the only time I ever saw a more than one shot from a 12 gauge with buck being needed. The comparison between any handgun and a 12 gauge (or a 20 gauge for that matter) loaded with buck is just not in the same galaxy.
This does not mean that I disrespect anyone who chooses a handgun for HD, but we all need to face facts.
As far as weapon retention goes, you can retain a long gun much easier than a handgun, particularly if you have a regular stocked weapon that does not have a "pistol" grip. You can also use the long gun as a blunt weapon a lot more effectively than a handgun-as in vertical/horizontal butt stroke. Getting clocked with a long gun stock delivered by someone who has trained rudimentally is an eye opening/eye closing experience.
As sad as the fact may be, in the USA, if you are going to shoot someone, it is far far better for you if the shootee becomes deceased. You are of course shooting to stop an activity, not kill someone. But if there is only one story for the legal authorities to hear, so much the better.
If you are not prepared to take a life, you have no business with a gun. If you are not emotionally and mentally prepared for that scenario, I refer you to an auction site for your gun(s).
The aftermath of the most justified shooting will be onerous and most stressful. Be prepared to get sued in civil court, be prepared for the following events in addition to being sued:
1. The local press will have a headline something like "homeowner slays youth".
2. The mama of the deceased will be on TV saying "my boy wouldn't do that".
3. A teacher or relative of the deceased will describe him as "an honor student".
4. A shirt tail relative of the deceased will be on TV saying " he wanted to be a doctor and help people".
5. You and your gun will be subject to great scrutiny by the media and not a few legal scum trying to show that you were just a "wannabe commando" waiting with a weapon of mass destruction for your first opportunity to kill some minority group member(this is why "tacticool" weapons are NOT cool).
I am not trying to discourage anyone from defending themselves and their loved ones. I am just trying to suggest that there is more involved in a HD shooting than the technical aspects.
All my HD shotguns are inoffensive looking doubles, except my Browning BPS Buck Special, complete with an engraving of Bambi on the receiver. I have quite a collection of tactical weapons, including a few Class III weapons, but I don't want my photo in the paper next to a photo of my UZI with a 32 round mag hanging on it.
OK EOR (end of rant).
earlthegoat2
Member
I have not witnessed but have been directly involved in a gunfight with an individual high on PCP. Even multiple hangun rounds to the center mass didnt stop him and in the end a close range shot with an Ithaca was what put him down for good.
Zeede
Member
I'm continually amazed at how often this comes up. I think the conundrum people get hung up on is "potential incapacitation" versus "probable incapacitation".
If you are operating on the "potential incapacitation" theory, then get a pistol in .22 LR. You can bring down an elephant with a lucky hit from the "measly" .22 LR, but your "probable incapacitation" is incredibly low.
Same thing with handguns and birdshot loads versus 00 buck or slugs from a shotgun.
Anything can happen, Murphy's Law is always in effect. It's the same thing with hunting. If a deer presents a nice broadside each and every time, then almost any centerfire round will do. But anyone who has hunted knows that many times they don't! Now you have to penetrate more bone, muscle and tissue than you would on a nice broadside shot, and the bullet has a lesser degree of success!
Also, another lesson from hunting, is never underestimate adrenaline. Even if the perpetrator in your house isn't high on drugs like PCP, his adrenaline is pumping. Deer can run fifty yards with their heart ripped in half by a bullet, on pure adrenaline. If Bambi can do that, your criminal armed with a knife can certainly close the remaining ten feet and stab you with a knife.
It all comes down to instant incapacitation, and the best chances at it, people. Nine projectiles have 9x more chance of hitting something that will instantly stop the intruder. You aren't shooting to HURT the intruder, you're shooting to STOP the intruder, which, in a worst-case scenario, means you need to physically stop his nervous or circulatory systems, preferably both.
You and your family's lives may be counting on just one pull of the trigger.
Cameron
If you are operating on the "potential incapacitation" theory, then get a pistol in .22 LR. You can bring down an elephant with a lucky hit from the "measly" .22 LR, but your "probable incapacitation" is incredibly low.
Same thing with handguns and birdshot loads versus 00 buck or slugs from a shotgun.
Anything can happen, Murphy's Law is always in effect. It's the same thing with hunting. If a deer presents a nice broadside each and every time, then almost any centerfire round will do. But anyone who has hunted knows that many times they don't! Now you have to penetrate more bone, muscle and tissue than you would on a nice broadside shot, and the bullet has a lesser degree of success!
Also, another lesson from hunting, is never underestimate adrenaline. Even if the perpetrator in your house isn't high on drugs like PCP, his adrenaline is pumping. Deer can run fifty yards with their heart ripped in half by a bullet, on pure adrenaline. If Bambi can do that, your criminal armed with a knife can certainly close the remaining ten feet and stab you with a knife.
It all comes down to instant incapacitation, and the best chances at it, people. Nine projectiles have 9x more chance of hitting something that will instantly stop the intruder. You aren't shooting to HURT the intruder, you're shooting to STOP the intruder, which, in a worst-case scenario, means you need to physically stop his nervous or circulatory systems, preferably both.
You and your family's lives may be counting on just one pull of the trigger.
Cameron
leadcounsel
member
If you were in some weird contest and had to be shot, but could choose between a pistol or a 12 gauge, what would you choose?
earlthegoat2
Member
A 12 guage loaded with birdshot.
And I d wear my leather jacket.
And I d wear my leather jacket.
- Status
