Shotgun vs. Interior wall - FBI gelatin test #4

[Brass Fetcher]

"Test Four - Wallboard - Two pieces of ½ inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The gelatin block is placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall."

All standards were met with the test setup, the block was also faced with two layers of 12 oz. denim fabric to simulate light clothing.

Firearm was 20" barrel, cylinder choked pump shotgun. Ammunition was 12 gauge Winchester 3" magnum #1 unplated buckshot.

Block calibrated at 9.2cm and '541 ft/sec' impact velocity (chronograph malfunction).

Average penetration was 11.8", with the shallowest pellet going 9.0" and the deepest penetration occuring at 14.4". Pellets were only moderately deformed, average diameter ~ 0.30".

Impact velocity was not recorded due to chronograph malfunction during the calibration shot. Apparently, the lighting level at the test area was changing rapidly due to fast moving rain clouds above the test area.

 

[RNB65]

How far was the shotgun from the wallboard?

 

[Brass Fetcher]

The muzzle was 10' from the face of the first piece of drywall.

 

[LaEscopeta]

Excellent test and post.

This is directly related to home defense firearm choices. Clearly, buckshot is going to be dangerous to people on the other side of interior walls if the target is missed. Smaller sized shot then the #1 used in this test can be expected to penetrate the gelatin block less then the 11.8” average of this test, but I’m willing to assume #4 through 00 buckshot will all be close to the 12” penetration generally accepted as the minimum for effective hits. If you want to minimize chances of harming innocents on the other side of dry wall with a missed shot, I think you need to go down to bird shot, and accept the limited effectiveness that shot will have on the target.

On the other hand, I think this test shows drywall is not cover from buckshot, for LEO, military, or some sort of SHTF/TEOTWAWKT-fantasy scenarios.

(Info like this is the reason I hang around this site.)

 

[NineseveN]

The birdshot argument again? :banghead:

 

[Freddymac]

I hate to nit pick, but...

The test was for a 3" mag shell. I thing most shotguns used for hd are 2 3/4. I dont think it would make much of a difference, but its just a thought.

 

[sm]

Pattern.
I am curious to the pattern if this information is still available.
1. Pattern of #1 in and of itself at this distance.
2. Pattern upong entering gelatin.

Pellet deformation? Forgive me for asking, but I do not know all there is about gelatin. I am curious about the deformity of pellets. I "guess" you remove these and perhaps get to "re-use" the gelatin in some manner?.

Never said I was smart.
Actually I'm pretty stupid, but I will continue to learn.

 

[LaEscopeta]

The birdshot argument again?

I’m not arguing anyone should or should not use birdshot. I’m just saying this test shows buckshot going through an interior wall with the ability to kill or seriously injure a person on the other side (I know, “Duh.”) I’m saying if you want a round that will not be lethal after 2 sheets of drywall, you need to go to bird shot. I’m not saying bird shot will be lethal or effective BEFORE going through the drywall.

I am curious to the pattern if this information is still available.
1. Pattern of #1 in and of itself at this distance.
2. Pattern upong entering gelatin.

I was curious about the same thing. Judging from the stated distance of 3 ½ inches between the 2 sheets of wall board, I’m guessing a 4+/- inch pattern when entering the wall (second picture.) From the yard stick at the bottom of the third picture, I’m guessing a 5+/- inch spread in the gelatin. So I’m thinking the wall board did not significantly open up the pattern at the distances of this test.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

It's only 'stupid' not to ask.

Pattern.
I am curious to the pattern if this information is still available.
1. Pattern of #1 in and of itself at this distance.
2. Pattern upong entering gelatin.

Pellet deformation? Forgive me for asking, but I do not know all there is about gelatin. I am curious about the deformity of pellets. I "guess" you remove these and perhaps get to "re-use" the gelatin in some manner?.

Never said I was smart.
Actually I'm pretty stupid, but I will continue to learn.

I will get you the actual measurements in a short while... I recall that the pattern was no more than 4" wide at 10 feet distance. The pellets hit the gelatin much as a pistol or rifle bullet would - 22 angry little bees hitting a ~ 6" circle on the face of the block. I say ' about 6" ' because two pellets missed the block entirely.

As far as I know, all shotgun pellets get deformed upon firing, some more and others less. I imagine that the deformation occured during the moment of firing and is less likely to have occured during impact with the drywall and gelatin (as you can see, neither prove much of a challenge for a #1 shot shell).

You can actually recycle gelatin and I will be doing it for this block. Virgin blocks get used on tests were I am getting paid or when very careful measurement is needed (borderline guns/calibers like mouseguns for example). Some people debate the validity of such blocks, but such people also happen to have unlimited material resources. What matters is the calibration information of the block, and this information is obtained wherever possible.

 

[NineseveN]

I’m not arguing anyone should or should not use birdshot. I’m just saying this test shows buckshot going through an interior wall with the ability to kill or seriously injure a person on the other side (I know, “Duh.”) I’m saying if you want a round that will not be lethal after 2 sheets of drywall, you need to go to bird shot. I’m not saying bird shot will be lethal or effective BEFORE going through the drywall.

Then I misunderstood and I apologize. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My own tests indicate, and this test seems to confirm that from cylinder bore barrels, birdshot is relatively ineffective. Look at the pattern (what you can see of it) on the "wall." It's not different from the birdshot patterns in my tests -- which all who saw agreed were ineffective.

On the other hand, a full choke would deliver an effective pattern at this range, even of #8 shot. However, the penetration of that shot through and the effect on the far side of wall would be about as lethal as buckshot.

The only real advantage to birdshot is that it is not likely to penetrate your exterior wall and your neighbor's exterior wall. And you need full choke to make it effective for defensive purposes.

 

[orangeninja]

The test sounds a bit jacked from the beginning.

1.) Who uses magnums in a HD shotgun?

2.) #1 or "0" shot is big.....really big.

3.) Who uses 3' MAGNUMS in a HD shotgun?

4.) 20' barrel is okay, but I wonder how the 18 incher would do as a comparison?

5.) 10 inches from the dry wall isn't that far. I would think 2 feet would be more appropriate.

Anyhow........ineresting post......thanks.

 

[sm]

Re: Penetration as applies to Cover

JE223 has shared a lot of testing - which for one I really appreciate.

Testing that not only shares bullet performance , penetration, also how the projectile looks after entering media , and in this case pattern and pellet deformation - Also how to prepare against these projectiles being used against you!

I had a bad representative of a Rookie LEO neighbor and his drunken Buddies and "groupies" - drunk and the video game "not doing right", send .40 cal rounds thru Apt walls.

Note - this guy was MY neighbor. Thankfully the neighbor on his other side was gone, and the rounds went that direction. I went for COVER.

Repeat COVER.

Use heavy furniture to best use. Learn from JE223 and other testings to think about cover, safe zones, shooting lanes.

There is more to this Responsible Firearm Ownership bit than having "the ultimate blaster, with the coolest loads, and all the fuzzy dice and curb feelers.

Scrap yards have steel plates. Bricks / cement blocks in a closet, decorative glass bricks in a den, used for making a bar...

"But I am going to hunker down behind my bed and have the shotgun atop the bed".

Fine, go get a junk matress and box springs, and set it up just like a bed and shoot at it as a BG would.

Now do note the "downward" angle(s) depending on distances and where YOU are being hunkered down.

Did the rounds from various "typcial BG guns" penetrate? Surprising huh? Gang Bangers are not going to have high-dollar handgun ammo, most are going to have FMJ...not as expensive, and they are not as anal or do they care about the same stuff many of us do. FMJ is less expensive and they are BGs, what do they care about over -penetration? They don't!

So, perhaps the couple when staying in an apt while house being built was not stupid or paranoid when they got a junk pc of furniture and stuck bricks in it to use for bedroom cover.

Or the young lady whose bed room mirrored that of apt next door [ headboard to headboard] and used glass bricks b/t her headboard and wall in the event the neighbor had rounds fired at her and being asleep - having cover to get awake to get evade to better distant cover a good idea.
Neighbor did the same.

Never thought about incoming did you?

Maybe the Maintance guy with Master keys is really interested in that cute gal in next door apt. And just happens to come in on her, or is waiting for her. Where are YOU going to take cover if the Maintance guy with ill intentions starts shooting? When the cute gall starts defending herself with a firearm?

Think!

In new construction, take these tests and use for YOUR advantage.

Existing homes - get the scrap steel , bricks and use in closets and have a plan, one practiced often so the kids know to "Stop , Drop & Roll behind cover [steel, bricks , heavy cover, like a toy boy full of bricks]

Ya'll can discuss, cuss and fume all you want about some of this stuff. Some of us have guns that fit us, the ammo fits us and tasks and we learn from tests - and use tests to avoid the incoming fire.


It is said if a person ever has to face another in a gunfight they hope the other guy is not trained.
Well I have BTDT.
One the guy had a heavy shotgun with all the bells and whistles and could not use it. I evaded using cover...

I have had the guy with a Junk Handgun that would not fire at front of my truck to me in driver's seat distance. Again I evaded using cover .

Never have I wondered if "I wonder what gee-whiz gadgets he is using" or " I wonder what gee-whiz ammo is in that thing".

Incoming has the right of way - it does not matter from what launches it, or what kind of ammo!

Now look at these tests and what in world are YOU going to take cover behind?
Your Wife?
Kids?

Might be best to buy materials for cover, and security arrangments instead of curb feelers, fuzzy dice and Dragon's Breath - huh?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

1.) Who uses magnums in a HD shotgun?

Nobody who has thought it through.

2.) #1 or "0" shot is big.....really big.

My own tests show that with a cylinder barrel, it's needed. And with a full choke, smaller shot is not less destructive.

3.) Who uses 3' MAGNUMS in a HD shotgun?

The retarded cousin of the guy who uses magnums.
4

.) 20' barrel is okay, but I wonder how the 18 incher would do as a comparison?

The difference is in handling. Ballistically there would be no measurable difference.

5.) 10 inches from the dry wall isn't that far. I would think 2 feet would be more appropriate.

Shooting distance from the dry wall was given as 10 feet, and the gelatin was given as 18 inches behind the wall.

As a rule of thumb, I'd recommend testing at the maximum distance you can shoot inside the house. If you get effective patterning at that distance, you can assume effectiveness at shorter distances.

Clearly also, if the aim is to not have lethal effect behind the wall, the distance from the back side of the wall to the gelatin isn't really relative -- a single pellet could be lethal to a child sleeping in the next room at any distance you might place the bed.

 

[ball3006]

I am only concerned about....

wall penetration AFTER the pellets go through a body. I will not be shooting the walls, floor, ceiling, etc........I will be shooting the bad guy that is in there........and. the chance of missing at room length will be nil to none....chris3

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I am only concerned about.... wall penetration AFTER the pellets go through a body. I will not be shooting the walls, floor, ceiling, etc........I will be shooting the bad guy that is in there........and. the chance of missing at room length will be nil to none

Reminds me of a young lieutenant who objected to counter-ambush drills on the ground that "Our reconnaissance is so good we'll never be ambushed."

 

[Fred Fuller]

I can't say that I'm surprised at the test results- I had no doubt that simple drywall would offer any real protection from bucksot at close range. But this is still a useful demonstration of that fact for anyone who didn't already know it already.

I'm always surprised by the number of people who think 'more is better' as far as ammo payloads go. There are apparently a lot of people who select 3" magnum loads for home defense, if postings to various internet fora are any indication. And a lot of people seem taken with the notion that the theoretical "best" buckshot load for a 12 ga. is #1 buck. The theoretical advantages of #1 due to increased pellet count of a usefully sized pellet was brought out to me for the first time in my hunter safety course almost 40 years ago, so it isn't news by any means. I say theoretical because so far no ammunition company has given this supposed advantage any respect- all the loads of #1 buck I know of are still loaded with soft lead, unprotected pellets, and this is hardly a formula for good patterns.

I have yet to find a shotgun that will pattern #1 buckshot well, or a #1 buck load that will pattern well, and so in spite of its theoretical advantages as to pellet size and pellet count I don't use it. If you cannot get those pellets on target assuming you do your part, the additional pellets might as well not be there at all. In fact they are a DISadvantage if they spread so much as to miss your intended target, because then you have to worry about what they might hit downrange past the intended target.

ANY load that is capable of doing substantial damage to an unprotected human target is likely going to penetrate drywall too. Physics will not be denied after all. Birdshot can and will go through drywall, with enough force to seriously injure or kill anyone on the other side. I know all about the mysterious new "blended metal" projectiles, that supposedly can tell with their little metallic brains when they reach soft, warm, wet media and then will expand explosively, but will blithely plow through armor, sheet metal, glass or whatever else intervenes in search of flesh. Sorry, I ain't buying that one either. Magic is for fairy tales, and so are magic bullets.

It's up to the homeowner to stack the deck in his or her favor when it comes to preparing the funnel that you will defend in your home. No matter what firearm/load you use, it is not 100% guaranteed to be safe indoors, unless you are going to beat your intruders insensible with pillows. Assuming you are going to use a shotgun, ANYTHING you choose to blow down the bore can be lethal- even blanks. Any projectile you can lauch that has a chance of doing enough damage to an unarmored home intruder to stop him cold is going to have a chance of blowing through a wall or four of your house as well. It's unavoidable, it's physics. Get used to it. Stop dreaming.

Start THINKING. Yeah, it's work, and it isn't as much fun as keyboard arguments over shotguns vs. ARs vs. handguns, 870s vs. 500s, 12 ga. vs. 20 ga., or birdshot vs. buckshot. But it is one heck of a lot more important to you the homeowner to get this part right than it is to supposedly win some internet argument over what's the perfect home defense weapon/ammunition.

There is stuff in your house that CAN stop buckshot. Use it! Erect buckshot-resistant barriers between your designated 'fatal funnel' and the rest of the house. Heavy furniture, loaded bookshelves (National Geographic magazines are great for this), ornamental brick or stone interior walls- use your imagination. Assume barricaded firing positions that eliminate overpenetration worries by directing your muzzle away from occupied areas of your home. Figure on angles that elevate your muzzle so that errant buckshot is only a concern for the ceiling fan. Get some serious training with your HD shotgun so you have some understanding of what stress does to your brain, and so you have a chance of countering the effects of adrenalin in a crunch. Get a copy of Louis Awerbuck's _Safe At Home_ video and watch it. Find an NRA Home Protection course near you, or buy the manual ( http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=ES 26828 ) and study it.

Look over your own situation and prepare accordingly. Don't worry so much about any one aspect of the plan (there are no perfect guns, and no 100% loads, after all). Consider the situation as a whole and how each of the elements affect the others.

And above all, stay safe.

lpl/nc (sorry 'bout the rant)

 

[Steve C]

It should be noted that "magnum" shotshells simply carry more shot in the load than a standard shell. Unlike magnums in pistol and rifle ammunition, the velocity of said shot from a Mag shell is essentially the same as a non-magnum 2-3/4" shell and not necessarily higher.

The logical conclusion would be that magnum shot will penetrate no more than a standard load so they're no more or less dangerous beyond a gyp board wall. Magnums will of course send more shot down range and make more holes in the target or BG. If you have magnums for hunting there's no real reason other than the little extra recoil they impart to not use them for home or self defense in the shot size you choose.

In any case the resluts of JE223's test is as valid with a standard no 1 buckshot load as it is with the mag load.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

ANY load that is capable of doing substantial damage to an unprotected human target is likely going to penetrate drywall too. Physics will not be denied after all. Birdshot can and will go through drywall, with enough force to seriously injure or kill anyone on the other side.

Amen.

The key is to test candidate loads under home defense conditions in the gun you plan to use. Take the most effective load, and adapt your tactics to the dangers and limitations of that load.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

1.) Who uses magnums in a HD shotgun?


Nobody who has thought it through.

I do, and I hear they are pretty good. I've even tested some in ballistic gelatin.

3.) Who uses 3' MAGNUMS in a HD shotgun?

The retarded cousin of the guy who uses magnums.

I do. It's kind of like the reason that some people dare to practice with .45ACP and .44 magnum. Yes, they kick more than a .22lr (or a .410 bore in the case of a shotgun) but there is no magic bullet - you 'give' less than you 'get' in recoil. There is a ballistic advantage with large surface area, slow heavy projectiles.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

1.) Who uses magnums in a HD shotgun?
Nobody who has thought it through.

I do, and I hear they are pretty good. I've even tested some in ballistic gelatin.

All they give you is slightly more payload -- at the cost of increased recoil.

3.) Who uses 3' MAGNUMS in a HD shotgun?

The retarded cousin of the guy who uses magnums.

I do. It's kind of like the reason that some people dare to practice with .45ACP and .44 magnum. Yes, they kick more than a .22lr (or a .410 bore in the case of a shotgun) but there is no magic bullet - you 'give' less than you 'get' in recoil. There is a ballistic advantage with large surface area, slow heavy projectiles.

Magnum shotgun shells are not like magnum rifle or pistol cartridges. Increased controlability and increased magazine capacity more than offset any theoretical gain from a 3" magnum shell.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Good to know. Thanks.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Actually, Vern, let me re-state my above post. I'm happy that you prefer non-magnum buckshot over magnum buckshot.

If you could quote a few 'It happened to me'-type stories where more than a handfull of shotgun rounds were fired in a home-defense shooting, I would like to see them. More lead per unit time (trigger pull) means more damage to the target. Unless you are an 'energy junkie', then no amount of reason can help you.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually, Vern, let me re-state my above post. I'm happy that you prefer non-magnum buckshot over magnum buckshot.

If you could quote a few 'It happened to me'-type stories where more than a handfull of shotgun rounds were fired in a home-defense shooting, I would like to see them. More lead per unit time (trigger pull) means more damage to the target. Unless you are an 'energy junkie', then no amount of reason can help you.

As you know, statistics are meaningless in individual cases -- more than one man has drowned in a river that averaged only 6 inches deep.

I see no advantage to using magnum loads in a home-defense scenario.

On the other hand, controlability and increased magazine capacity are not negligible advantages.

 

[NineseveN]

Vern increased magazine capacity is a near-useless argument, the difference between 5 rounds and 7 rounds is mostly moot in a self-defense scenario, most altercations where a civilian defends themselves using a firearm involve less than 5 rounds, right?

Controllability is an individual kind of thing, I find 3" loads to be dandy out of a heavier shotgun (870 with side saddle and a Surefire forend) but a little much to control out of a 6-pound pump gun.

Just thought I'd interject a little here.