Vern Humphrey
Member
Okay -- but the advantages of magnum loads are no more useful. And no one ever died because he had too much ammo.
I find my Ithaca Model 37 much more controlable with ordinary 2 3/4" loads.
Shotgun vs. Interior wall - FBI gelatin test #4
- Thread starter Brass Fetcher
- Start date
- Status
I find my Ithaca Model 37 much more controlable with ordinary 2 3/4" loads.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
Vern, I agree (and wish I had an Ithaca 37!). It is mainly a matter of opinion - IE having a five-seven (with its large magazine) or a .45acp with its small magazine. The shorter a fight lasts, the less hurt everyone gets (hopefully).
Vern Humphrey
Member
There are many different tactical scenarios -- but inside a house, it seems to me that the problem isn't power, it's just getting hits quickly enough to win.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
Regarding the group size
The group size at 10' distance was 3 3/8". The backface of the second wallboard piece measures that as well. The gelatin block is long since gone but I recall there being a good deal more spread that the above on the face of the block and 2-3 flyers that missed completely.
FWIW, the shot cup penetrated the first board but did not go all the way through. For scale, the drywall piece measured 12" x 12" .
The group size at 10' distance was 3 3/8". The backface of the second wallboard piece measures that as well. The gelatin block is long since gone but I recall there being a good deal more spread that the above on the face of the block and 2-3 flyers that missed completely.
FWIW, the shot cup penetrated the first board but did not go all the way through. For scale, the drywall piece measured 12" x 12" .
Attachments
JohnBT
Member
"3.) Who uses 3'' MAGNUMS in a HD shotgun?"
Folks who want to be certain their 8# autoloading 3.5" duck gun cycles? Talk about a soft shooting gun...
And slugs, I also have HD slugs, in case I need to shoot through some of these 90-year-old plaster on lath walls. There's no cheap pine 1.5" x 3.5" two-by-fours in these walls and the exterior walls are plaster on 14" of brick.
I don't know what I'd do in a stick built house with a bunch of sheetrock around me.
John
Folks who want to be certain their 8# autoloading 3.5" duck gun cycles? Talk about a soft shooting gun...
And slugs, I also have HD slugs, in case I need to shoot through some of these 90-year-old plaster on lath walls. There's no cheap pine 1.5" x 3.5" two-by-fours in these walls and the exterior walls are plaster on 14" of brick.
I don't know what I'd do in a stick built house with a bunch of sheetrock around me.
John
sm
member
Thoughts:
Some great things are coming out besides original intentions of posting.
JE223, again thank you. Forgive me, there is some thread drift here, still with your pictures, and test data being handy - some great discussions, and I hope like heck the new folks are reading this.
Vern Humphrey has pics of his new donkey's - only reasons I mention that 1) I am that hard headed , 2) Now you folks have a idea of what I look like.
Original Post:
I want to keep this civil - let us continue to agree to disagree.
Of course I have MY druthers and that is something I want to bring to light.
[Remember I resemble Vern's Donkeys ]
MY testing loads involved a lot of "considerations" as I was doing research on loads for patterns, density and basically if you have read Brister's Book and anything about Stan Baker [Stan Baker bore measuring tool] this gives you an idea.
Also, due to the work I was in - I was testing for other reasons like COVER. Hence the reason I shot actual cars, building materials , actual structures out in rural areas [ materials react different 'loose' than they do 'built'] because if the BGs came in for instance I had steel plates, bricks and such to use for cover for me and employees.
I used FMJ a lot simply because I wanted the worst case scenerio of BG buying the ball ammo being less monies. Heck I shot a desk like my bookeeper's once with .25 ACP ball ammo. Bookeeper's desk was beefed up with steel plates and other things under the top and front/ sides, because that lowly .25ACP penetrated and I wanted something for that desk for cover. I was satisfied once I had her "cover" to stop 30-30 ammo and slugs. Once we remodled and her office moved, additional steps taken, as they were throughout the store. I basically made that front office a walk in vault, as one entered they passed it on one side, so I changed it to work for defense and not a bullet catcher.
1. Shells : I personally never saw a need for anything other than 2 3/4" shells, except in .410 and I rarely use 3" shells even then.
Some great things are coming out besides original intentions of posting.
JE223, again thank you. Forgive me, there is some thread drift here, still with your pictures, and test data being handy - some great discussions, and I hope like heck the new folks are reading this.
Vern Humphrey has pics of his new donkey's - only reasons I mention that 1) I am that hard headed , 2) Now you folks have a idea of what I look like.
Original Post:
I want to keep this civil - let us continue to agree to disagree.
Of course I have MY druthers and that is something I want to bring to light.
[Remember I resemble Vern's Donkeys
]MY testing loads involved a lot of "considerations" as I was doing research on loads for patterns, density and basically if you have read Brister's Book and anything about Stan Baker [Stan Baker bore measuring tool] this gives you an idea.
Also, due to the work I was in - I was testing for other reasons like COVER. Hence the reason I shot actual cars, building materials , actual structures out in rural areas [ materials react different 'loose' than they do 'built'] because if the BGs came in for instance I had steel plates, bricks and such to use for cover for me and employees.
I used FMJ a lot simply because I wanted the worst case scenerio of BG buying the ball ammo being less monies. Heck I shot a desk like my bookeeper's once with .25 ACP ball ammo. Bookeeper's desk was beefed up with steel plates and other things under the top and front/ sides, because that lowly .25ACP penetrated and I wanted something for that desk for cover. I was satisfied once I had her "cover" to stop 30-30 ammo and slugs. Once we remodled and her office moved, additional steps taken, as they were throughout the store. I basically made that front office a walk in vault, as one entered they passed it on one side, so I changed it to work for defense and not a bullet catcher.
1. Shells : I personally never saw a need for anything other than 2 3/4" shells, except in .410 and I rarely use 3" shells even then.
sm
member
1. Shells : I personally never saw a need for anything other than 2 3/4" shells, except in .410 and I rarely use 3" shells even then.
Reliabitily is one factor. 2 3/4 " shells feed and extract best. I have tested Mini shells, and shells longer than 2 3/4".
Give Me 2 3/4" everytime.
I test firearms, including Shotguns, Upside down [180*, shooting on my back and up and over my head], Port side "up" , Port side "down" , weak side, one handed on both strong and weak side, and shooting with the muzzle more "up" and "down". I do this in the dry to replicate being in a structure, then again having had actual structures to shoot in rural settings...
I run the guns in wet, dirt, mud, rain, snow...because in evading and the fight goes outside, and all I gots is what I started with, I gotta know.
What if the Fish tank gets shot and your gun is totally wet - will it run wet?
Tornado takes your roof, or Remember situations like Katrina, all sorts of wet, nasty debris in the rain blowing [dirty rain] and you are defending you, family and property?
I know for a fact cases of shotgun ammo was passed out to folks Katrina as they have in other "disaster's" and the ammo is always 2 3/4" for shotguns. Same reason .22lr, .38spl was passed out, fits a greater variety of firearms.
I know for a fact the loads were Remington 00 buck 9 pellet, slugs and #6 hunting loads. Remington was "handy" and bought at time when on sale. I personally prefer the Federal 9 pellet 00 buck.
Just like I know for a fact - folks get cut off from guns, and ammo. I know for a fact a pawn shop JC Higgins pump shotgun, single shot shotguns are very very much appreciated in serious situations. These guns still defend, protect, and will take game for meat. Just like them pawn shop specials on .22 rifles, and old Police trade in .38spls.
Yes I know post #1 was about FBI testing #1 shot. I see this as "what am I going to use for cover" and "file this away in the event I need to use what left of a structure for cover, and "I got this gun with such and such loads given to me since mine have been flooded, the wildfire does not allow me to get to mine, or the tornado , or...
Just how I think, out of the box of course.
Reliabitily is one factor. 2 3/4 " shells feed and extract best. I have tested Mini shells, and shells longer than 2 3/4".
Give Me 2 3/4" everytime.
I test firearms, including Shotguns, Upside down [180*, shooting on my back and up and over my head], Port side "up" , Port side "down" , weak side, one handed on both strong and weak side, and shooting with the muzzle more "up" and "down". I do this in the dry to replicate being in a structure, then again having had actual structures to shoot in rural settings...
I run the guns in wet, dirt, mud, rain, snow...because in evading and the fight goes outside, and all I gots is what I started with, I gotta know.
What if the Fish tank gets shot and your gun is totally wet - will it run wet?
Tornado takes your roof, or Remember situations like Katrina, all sorts of wet, nasty debris in the rain blowing [dirty rain] and you are defending you, family and property?
I know for a fact cases of shotgun ammo was passed out to folks Katrina as they have in other "disaster's" and the ammo is always 2 3/4" for shotguns. Same reason .22lr, .38spl was passed out, fits a greater variety of firearms.
I know for a fact the loads were Remington 00 buck 9 pellet, slugs and #6 hunting loads. Remington was "handy" and bought at time when on sale. I personally prefer the Federal 9 pellet 00 buck.
Just like I know for a fact - folks get cut off from guns, and ammo. I know for a fact a pawn shop JC Higgins pump shotgun, single shot shotguns are very very much appreciated in serious situations. These guns still defend, protect, and will take game for meat. Just like them pawn shop specials on .22 rifles, and old Police trade in .38spls.
Yes I know post #1 was about FBI testing #1 shot. I see this as "what am I going to use for cover" and "file this away in the event I need to use what left of a structure for cover, and "I got this gun with such and such loads given to me since mine have been flooded, the wildfire does not allow me to get to mine, or the tornado , or...
Just how I think, out of the box of course.
sm
member
2. Pattern
I asked earlier for a reason.
Like Lee, never had #1 buckshot do worth a flip to MY standards.
I know about stuff like -
It is like a grenade going off and all them pellets getting scrunched slamming into that forcing cone, down the bore and exiting a muzzle.
Pellets deform from the force and using the force of each other against themselves. Now harder shot helps [more antimony] plated shot helps to harden more and resist this deformity. Buffering assists.
Remember it makes no nevermind what a barrel is marked, a bore is said to be, what a choke is marked , what the box of ammo says...
Only Mr. and Mrs. Pattern Board know for sure.
Forcing cone IMO is the most important aspect in so much of load performance, and recoil mgmt. Not the choke.
Matter of bore not choke -Brister
Brister also knew, as did Stan Baker and others ...and some of us here as well...al little something about how many POC [points of choke] or Thousandths of an inch do what.
Too many pellets will deform more than less and therefore result in poorer performance in pattern's an pattern density.
Remember them pellets do not all arrive all at the same time, shorter shot strings are best, deformed pelletes attribute to longer shot strings.
The target may be moving, and with a long shot string you do not get effective hits , even in "room" distance, target may get to cover and not get a hit from "all them pellets".
Brister discusses this, with pictures no less.
Go get a tire and stick a pc of plywood in it, have it rolled out, and shoot a moving target with your buckshot loads. Now see how many pellets actually hit it. Even better is to have newspaper as backdrop to get an idea where the rest went that missed the moving target.
Keep in mind target presentations are not always going to be "straight on"...so shoot angled stationary targets first, then replicate the same with moving ones.
Less is more
Well...you may find less pellets with shorter shot strings, out of 2 3/4" shell, with hard, plated, buffered shot, not only affords quick accurate hits, also better patterns, pattern density and threat mgmt better.
I asked earlier for a reason.
Like Lee, never had #1 buckshot do worth a flip to MY standards.
I know about stuff like -
It is like a grenade going off and all them pellets getting scrunched slamming into that forcing cone, down the bore and exiting a muzzle.
Pellets deform from the force and using the force of each other against themselves. Now harder shot helps [more antimony] plated shot helps to harden more and resist this deformity. Buffering assists.
Remember it makes no nevermind what a barrel is marked, a bore is said to be, what a choke is marked , what the box of ammo says...
Only Mr. and Mrs. Pattern Board know for sure.
Forcing cone IMO is the most important aspect in so much of load performance, and recoil mgmt. Not the choke.
Matter of bore not choke -Brister
Brister also knew, as did Stan Baker and others ...and some of us here as well...al little something about how many POC [points of choke] or Thousandths of an inch do what.
Too many pellets will deform more than less and therefore result in poorer performance in pattern's an pattern density.
Remember them pellets do not all arrive all at the same time, shorter shot strings are best, deformed pelletes attribute to longer shot strings.
The target may be moving, and with a long shot string you do not get effective hits , even in "room" distance, target may get to cover and not get a hit from "all them pellets".
Brister discusses this, with pictures no less.
Go get a tire and stick a pc of plywood in it, have it rolled out, and shoot a moving target with your buckshot loads. Now see how many pellets actually hit it. Even better is to have newspaper as backdrop to get an idea where the rest went that missed the moving target.
Keep in mind target presentations are not always going to be "straight on"...so shoot angled stationary targets first, then replicate the same with moving ones.
Less is more
Well...you may find less pellets with shorter shot strings, out of 2 3/4" shell, with hard, plated, buffered shot, not only affords quick accurate hits, also better patterns, pattern density and threat mgmt better.
sm
member
3. Extension of gun to Shooter.
Gun fit - darn right I am going to mention it here again.
Now take at look at the pictures of that target, and the pattern.
JE223 was doing a ballistic test. He took his time to get a sight picture, with correct basics of mounting gun to face, stance, foot postion. He fired once and not under pressure per se' [I'm sure he was hoping the target, gelatin and all would work as should].
Could YOU hit that same target under pressure, heart rate pumping, kneeling behind cover, on the floor, being yelled at, shots have been fired at you?
Add the smell of acrid smoke and the taste of copper in your mouth because of blood, the smell of blood does that, and it does not have to be yours.
Can the smallest person in YOUR house use the house Shotgun(s)?
Remember a bigger person can shoot a smaller gun - a smaller person cannot always shoot a bigger gun.
Size of gun [ LOP, bigger receiver to accept longer than 2 3/4" shells], Weight of gun [mag extension, side saddle , light], Loadings [ can the smaller person shoot a 3" magnum load? Well granted they may get the first one off with the adrenalin going, did they get the big heavy gun up to make an effective hit, and now can they do it again? Can they hold the gun one handed to cover to call for Police?
I can think of six folks on this forum alone that have house guns and loads set up for the smallest person to use.
All 2 3/4" shells. Some are 20 ga and can only use #3 buck.
See the pic with the pattern?
These six folks - the smaller of the house can and do train to get quick accurate hits with the house gun. They do Tueller drills ...
That pattern pic is coming at you full bore, screaming curses, and ....
Is your gun going to allow you and the smallest person to get a quick accurate hit and get anywhere near the pattern in the pic?
Gun fit - darn right I am going to mention it here again.
Now take at look at the pictures of that target, and the pattern.
JE223 was doing a ballistic test. He took his time to get a sight picture, with correct basics of mounting gun to face, stance, foot postion. He fired once and not under pressure per se' [I'm sure he was hoping the target, gelatin and all would work as should].
Could YOU hit that same target under pressure, heart rate pumping, kneeling behind cover, on the floor, being yelled at, shots have been fired at you?
Add the smell of acrid smoke and the taste of copper in your mouth because of blood, the smell of blood does that, and it does not have to be yours.
Can the smallest person in YOUR house use the house Shotgun(s)?
Remember a bigger person can shoot a smaller gun - a smaller person cannot always shoot a bigger gun.
Size of gun [ LOP, bigger receiver to accept longer than 2 3/4" shells], Weight of gun [mag extension, side saddle , light], Loadings [ can the smaller person shoot a 3" magnum load? Well granted they may get the first one off with the adrenalin going, did they get the big heavy gun up to make an effective hit, and now can they do it again? Can they hold the gun one handed to cover to call for Police?
I can think of six folks on this forum alone that have house guns and loads set up for the smallest person to use.
All 2 3/4" shells. Some are 20 ga and can only use #3 buck.
See the pic with the pattern?
These six folks - the smaller of the house can and do train to get quick accurate hits with the house gun. They do Tueller drills ...
That pattern pic is coming at you full bore, screaming curses, and ....
Is your gun going to allow you and the smallest person to get a quick accurate hit and get anywhere near the pattern in the pic?
sm
member
4. Tool for Task
A tool is no better than user of said tool. Anon.
JohnBT,
Exactly!
John has a duck gun, it may be what is "handy" , since he shoots it a lot for waterfowl. He knows the gun, has patterned the gun, he practices with the gun, he has points 1, 2, 3 covered - already tested and proven for HIM and This gun at various yardages and various targets.
Take note of his structure and how built.
Notice HIS concerns if structure was less rigid in design and materials?
Same reason I/ We went out and shot Rural structures, some of these are STOUT! We have taken out structures, or "built" [enhanced] to replicate business settings.
The fellow with a office that overlooks a warehouse on one side...Uses a 45-70 and 12 ga from a Bounty Hunter with one bbl being 45-70, and the other 12 bore. There is a 45-70 and 30-30 rifle and 12 ga shotgun on that side.
Office also faces a retail side, the guns and loading are different.
I assure the office and anyone shooting "Up" to it, - well there is cover to handle anything coming "up" be it from directly underneath or from angles.
JE223's tests to ME, share a whole lot more than what a loading does to a block of gelatin.
JE223, again my thanks and to all whom have shared.
Vern,
How are my kinfolks doing out back?
Steve
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
Now that you mention it...
Shooting ballistic gelatin is about the most stressfull normal shooting event that I can remember. You have to stand a certain distance away from the block (usually no greater than 10'), line up the shot to miss the damage of the previous bullets and fly over the chrono skyscreen and not be at an angle such that it veers out of the side of the block. There is also the mechanical offset of the weapon system that you are shooting.
On top of that, I live in Florida, so the outdoors are usually hotter than the block and indoor ranges most certainly are hotter. So, there is a time constraint - the gelatin heats up and exagerates the effectiveness of bullets the hotter it gets.
But thanks again for your kind words. It means a lot to get positive feedback from you all.
Shooting ballistic gelatin is about the most stressfull normal shooting event that I can remember. You have to stand a certain distance away from the block (usually no greater than 10'), line up the shot to miss the damage of the previous bullets and fly over the chrono skyscreen and not be at an angle such that it veers out of the side of the block. There is also the mechanical offset of the weapon system that you are shooting.
On top of that, I live in Florida, so the outdoors are usually hotter than the block and indoor ranges most certainly are hotter. So, there is a time constraint - the gelatin heats up and exagerates the effectiveness of bullets the hotter it gets.
But thanks again for your kind words. It means a lot to get positive feedback from you all.
JohnBT
Member
I have to admit that I don't use the 3.5" SX-2 all year long, only during hunting season. Of course, the other two I use the rest of the year aren't much different: a 3" Express and a 2.75" 1100. I suppose I could go for a lighter gun, but at 6' & 190#, these guns don't seem heavy and unwieldy to me.
They all work fine in the rain and sleet and such, although I didn't get a chance to try any of them out the afternoon tropical storm Gaston dumped
14 INCHES of rain on us. I wanted to, but it was a plain crazy day.
John
They all work fine in the rain and sleet and such, although I didn't get a chance to try any of them out the afternoon tropical storm Gaston dumped
14 INCHES of rain on us. I wanted to, but it was a plain crazy day.
John
This test setup looks a bit unusual. I don't know if the airspace between the sheetrock makes any difference but it looks like a 2x6 between the sheets rather than a 2x4 which is standard. It also appears to be 5/8" sheetrock which would be most unusual for construction of interior wall in a home. 1/2" is and has been the standard thickness. Many homes have 5/8" sheetrock for celings and firewalls such as behind your water heater and furnace. I believe IF it is 5/8" sheetrock that was used the extra 1/4" total thickness has a significant effect on penetration. How much I don't have a clue.
This does let me know however that #4 would be about as large as I would want bouncing around in my home. I would feel much worse hurting a loved one or innocent than having my stuff ripped off. Where I live the most threat I have is some crystal meth-head trying to steal my TV and to be honest, I would just rather him/her get the TV than shoot them. I have seen too much to know that even if I was justified in the shoot I would get to see it again and again for the rest of my life, not fun. Been there, done that. All I ever want to do is stop, not kill.
az
This does let me know however that #4 would be about as large as I would want bouncing around in my home. I would feel much worse hurting a loved one or innocent than having my stuff ripped off. Where I live the most threat I have is some crystal meth-head trying to steal my TV and to be honest, I would just rather him/her get the TV than shoot them. I have seen too much to know that even if I was justified in the shoot I would get to see it again and again for the rest of my life, not fun. Been there, done that. All I ever want to do is stop, not kill.
az
Vern Humphrey
Member
Mind if I ask a question? It's 3:00 AM and there is an intruder in your house. How do you know it's just some crystal meth-head trying to steal your TV? How do you know this person intends to do your family no harm?
And what are the consequences if you guess wrong?
Snake Eyes
Member
I use 3" No. 1 Buck in my Winchester Defender HD shotgun. I practice with it, and curse the bruise for the next week.
But I love the pattern*, I CAN control the gun and No. 1 Buck just flat out rocks--More pellets than OO, more calibre than 0000.
I guess I'm JE223's retarded cousin.
*With all due respect to Messers sm & Lapin, I have patterned my Defender at 30'--which is the longest firing lane in my residence, and it keeps most of the pellets in the chest cavity of the standard Q target. Good enough for me. If the fight moves outside, I'm taking a rifle.
But I love the pattern*, I CAN control the gun and No. 1 Buck just flat out rocks--More pellets than OO, more calibre than 0000.
I guess I'm JE223's retarded cousin.
*With all due respect to Messers sm & Lapin, I have patterned my Defender at 30'--which is the longest firing lane in my residence, and it keeps most of the pellets in the chest cavity of the standard Q target. Good enough for me. If the fight moves outside, I'm taking a rifle.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
Snake eyes, glad to be in the same boat as you!
I have a new saying : "When the hammer drops, the BS stops." That is why I like maximum pressure loadings in everything but my .22LR. I know, I know, it's an old saying. But I haven't heard it in a while, so I will try to claim it for myself.
azflyman, I read the FBI specification and I measured the material that I was working with. That is a 'Home Depot issue' 2x4, and the drywall measures 0.5" thick IIRC.
I have a new saying : "When the hammer drops, the BS stops." That is why I like maximum pressure loadings in everything but my .22LR. I know, I know, it's an old saying. But I haven't heard it in a while, so I will try to claim it for myself.
azflyman, I read the FBI specification and I measured the material that I was working with. That is a 'Home Depot issue' 2x4, and the drywall measures 0.5" thick IIRC.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
*With all due respect to Messers sm & Lapin, I have patterned my Defender at 30'--which is the longest firing lane in my residence, and it keeps most of the pellets in the chest cavity of the standard Q target. Good enough for me. If the fight moves outside, I'm taking a rifle.
=================================
Mr. Snake Eyes, sir:
I am very happy you have patterned your shotgun at what you expect to be the longest range you will have to use it with the loads you intend to fire out of it. And I'm also glad it keeps most of the pellets in a shot charge inside a ... what, 18" wide pattern? ... at 10 yards. As I have often said before, some people prefer scatterguns. They certainly have a right to their own choices, as do you. It's your house, your family, your neighbors, and your gunfight. I hope you never have to use that shotgun anyway, I hope the same thing for all of us.
It happens that I prefer tight patterns out of my shotguns by comparison with some, just as it happens I prefer 870s. It isn't something I can afford to be doctrinaire about, however- I'm no expert. I don't have any right to try and tell anyone else what they need to be shooting in defense of themselves and their loved ones. If you can shoulder-fire a Napoleon cannon loaded with double cannister, go for it- you're a better man that I am (not that it takes hoisting almost a ton of bronze to demonstrate being a better man than I am).
I just hope no one will focus so much on my preferences in brands of shotguns and types of patterns that they ignore the other more important stuff that I write. By that I mean the stuff about getting some serious training with your shotgun, about developing a workable and safe home defense plan, about deciding on a safe room or rooms and setting up a 'safe fire funnel' with that position or positions in mind. I mean doing stuff like taking the NRA Home Protection class, or at least getting something like Louis Awerbuck's _Safe At Home_ video and watching it a few times, and developing a plan from the information contained there. In reality those things are far more important that what shotgun you prefer or what shells you'd rather load it with. They might not be as much fun to talk about on the internet, but they are more important by far.
As to the rifle thing- we keep one handy also, at least it's kept out of the gunsafe and on the pegs in a hidden place while we're at home. In our case it's an AR carbine loaded with one 20-round magazine with another magazine in an Uncle Mike's nylon holder on the buttstock. But I might not have a chance to get to it if things go bad, and it's 51 yards from my front door to my front gate. No matter how tight the pattern, buckshot is going to be awful iffy at that kind of range, and that's why there are slugs in the Sidesaddles of the shotguns here. I can get to a shotgun no matter where I am in the house.
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
=================================
Mr. Snake Eyes, sir:
I am very happy you have patterned your shotgun at what you expect to be the longest range you will have to use it with the loads you intend to fire out of it. And I'm also glad it keeps most of the pellets in a shot charge inside a ... what, 18" wide pattern? ... at 10 yards. As I have often said before, some people prefer scatterguns. They certainly have a right to their own choices, as do you. It's your house, your family, your neighbors, and your gunfight. I hope you never have to use that shotgun anyway, I hope the same thing for all of us.
It happens that I prefer tight patterns out of my shotguns by comparison with some, just as it happens I prefer 870s. It isn't something I can afford to be doctrinaire about, however- I'm no expert. I don't have any right to try and tell anyone else what they need to be shooting in defense of themselves and their loved ones. If you can shoulder-fire a Napoleon cannon loaded with double cannister, go for it- you're a better man that I am (not that it takes hoisting almost a ton of bronze to demonstrate being a better man than I am).
I just hope no one will focus so much on my preferences in brands of shotguns and types of patterns that they ignore the other more important stuff that I write. By that I mean the stuff about getting some serious training with your shotgun, about developing a workable and safe home defense plan, about deciding on a safe room or rooms and setting up a 'safe fire funnel' with that position or positions in mind. I mean doing stuff like taking the NRA Home Protection class, or at least getting something like Louis Awerbuck's _Safe At Home_ video and watching it a few times, and developing a plan from the information contained there. In reality those things are far more important that what shotgun you prefer or what shells you'd rather load it with. They might not be as much fun to talk about on the internet, but they are more important by far.
As to the rifle thing- we keep one handy also, at least it's kept out of the gunsafe and on the pegs in a hidden place while we're at home. In our case it's an AR carbine loaded with one 20-round magazine with another magazine in an Uncle Mike's nylon holder on the buttstock. But I might not have a chance to get to it if things go bad, and it's 51 yards from my front door to my front gate. No matter how tight the pattern, buckshot is going to be awful iffy at that kind of range, and that's why there are slugs in the Sidesaddles of the shotguns here. I can get to a shotgun no matter where I am in the house.
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
JohnBT
Member
I don't think we're disputing anything as much as just reading and thinking about our individual situations.
"51 yards from my front door to my front gate."
My entire lot is 25.5' x 90' and the house is on the front half of it. Now you know why I don't worry too much about having a rifle handy. I'll just shoot slugs if need be.
John
"51 yards from my front door to my front gate."
My entire lot is 25.5' x 90' and the house is on the front half of it. Now you know why I don't worry too much about having a rifle handy. I'll just shoot slugs if need be.
John
Sure, you can ask. My home is wired. I know what is going on before they get in. It is a real bummer when you are trying to break into someone's home and the lights come on and the intercom asks what you need at 0300 before you touch anything. Battery backup works great for the essential systems even if the power is off. I also make a habit of being able to get anywhere in the home in 20 or so seconds blind. I move through the house blind with weapons to orient myself to direction and target acquisition, valuable with a long gun to see what clears what. I know every squeak, every groan that the house makes when moving through it, some sounds were manufactured. Sleep is not my friend, I wake at anything which is bad if you like rest. I have only had my door kicked in once in my lifetime by a semi-bad guy. He did not like the reception and decided to leave rather hastily. I don't know what put him off, could have been the .45.
az
LaEscopeta
Member
This might be a little thread drift but this site:
http://www.cprc.org/tr/tr-2002-03.pdf
Is a study of various rounds going through EXTERIOR walls. Note they did not fire all the different rounds at each wall type*, and they did not have a block of gelatin behind the wall to measure how dangerous each round can be expected to be after going through the wall. But never the less I think this study adds to the information gained by the original dry wall test on this thread.
(* I think they decided if a 22LR went clean through a given wall, a 0.308 would as well, so they did not waste the bigger round. Likewise once a wall stopped a low power round, they did not keep shooting that round at the stronger walls.)
http://www.cprc.org/tr/tr-2002-03.pdf
Is a study of various rounds going through EXTERIOR walls. Note they did not fire all the different rounds at each wall type*, and they did not have a block of gelatin behind the wall to measure how dangerous each round can be expected to be after going through the wall. But never the less I think this study adds to the information gained by the original dry wall test on this thread.
(* I think they decided if a 22LR went clean through a given wall, a 0.308 would as well, so they did not waste the bigger round. Likewise once a wall stopped a low power round, they did not keep shooting that round at the stronger walls.)
+1. And if you do the planning noted in the quote above you don’t need to know the answer to:
You will have a plan to cope with the intruder no matter what the intentions.
On the 3" shells...
My Mossberg has a cylinder bore. As things stand now a new barrel isn't in my plans for future purchase.
At 25 yards I HAVE to use 3" shells if I want enough pellets to hit the target to be worth anything.
Up close I am fine with Federal reduced recoil loads, but if I have to go any further than about the end of the hallway I need to switch loads.
If I have to go any farther than about 25 yards I need to switch to slugs. Luckily, they are POA in my shotgun for about 50 yards (give or take a little elevation) and that is part of the reason that the barrel stays.
Just thought I would put that out there in response to the "what kind of a buttknob would use 3" shells in a defense shotgun?" question.
My Mossberg has a cylinder bore. As things stand now a new barrel isn't in my plans for future purchase.
At 25 yards I HAVE to use 3" shells if I want enough pellets to hit the target to be worth anything.
Up close I am fine with Federal reduced recoil loads, but if I have to go any further than about the end of the hallway I need to switch loads.
If I have to go any farther than about 25 yards I need to switch to slugs. Luckily, they are POA in my shotgun for about 50 yards (give or take a little elevation) and that is part of the reason that the barrel stays.
Just thought I would put that out there in response to the "what kind of a buttknob would use 3" shells in a defense shotgun?" question.
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