shotgun w/ pistol grip classified as pistol?

[spankaveli]

i'm in louisiana, and I know the laws vary from state to state, but LA seems to be pretty lax when it comes to gun laws. i went into a pawn shop several months ago to pickup a pistol grip shotgun for HD/fun, but was turned away because the guy behind the counter told me they were classified as pistols. then, he let me buy an SKS w/ a pre-ban folding stock, which confused me more.

can soemone answer my question? anyone know if what he told me about hte pistol grip shotgun is true? (i know that I can buy a shotty with stock and convert it to pistol grip, but im just asking)

 

[TechBrute]

I think that dude was smoking glue, or just trying to sell you something that he had in stock. Gun shops know little about actual laws, in my experience, and pawn shops even less. Go to an actual gun store and ask for a Mossy persuader. Most likely, they will have one there, or offer to buy one for you. That will answer your question.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

All that being said---a PG shotgun is pretty worthless.

Get the full stock version and you'll be much better served---plus you can put all the add-ons you want on that one too.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

A shotgun with an overall length of <26" is either a SBS or AOW, depending on how it started life. A shotgun with a pistol grip that is >26" overall length is a still normal shotgun.

They do make some handguns that fire shotgun shells, such as the .410/.45LC derringers or the Thunder-5. These have rifled barrels and are considered handguns.

There are some SKSs in the country that had folding stocks before the 1989 restrictions were implemented. If you do buy one, make sure you get very good documentation that shows it was actually in that configuration back in '89.

 

[Badger Arms]

I think I have the answer. Yes, the gun store owner was correct and probably knows more about gun laws than many on this board. A PG shotgun, while not considered a handgun, falls under the same laws as a handgun for the purposes of sale by an FFL. The reason is that the BATF feels it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, therefore it's not truly a shotgun. It's also not a pistol. Weird. Still, you can sell a shotgun with a standard stock with an accessory pistol grip to a 20 year old but not a PG shotgun without a conventional stock. Make sense? Of course not, we're talking about the BATF silly!

 

[DMK]

That is odd. I bought a Mossberg Persuader that had a PG from a local gunshop. Here in NC, handguns require a permit to purchase from the Sheriff, however this did not.

Ohama's right though. I took it out and shot it once with the PG. As soon as I got home, I ordered a full length stock from Mossberg.

 

[Chipperman]

You can buy a Mossy Persuader across state lines, right?
You can't do that with a pistol.

 

[Badger Arms]

As I said, it's not classified as a pistol. You do, however, have to be 21-years-old according to BATF because it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder. Yes, you can buy it across state lines assuming you are not a prohibited person.

 

[ajacobs]

I realize that the legal definition contains the "fired from a shoulder" clause but no where does it say you cannot buy a pistol grip shotgun at 18 that I can find in my atf publication. My dealer sells these all the time to adults under 21. You would also use the shotgun box on the 4473. Am I missing something.
For what its worth is also states specifically that it is a smooth bore, which we know is not the case with many shotguns. Leave it to the goverment to be perfectly clear.

 

[Badger Arms]

Obscure reading / ruling I got from the horses mouth. I've sold lots of PG shotguns and the subject came up once at a Gun Show. I called BATF and they said yes, that was true. If you want a definitive answer, ask for a letter of clarification. I am not planning on reading through the reams of papers, files, memos, briefs, and laws to find the exact sentence but I was told it existed by the BATF field office in Seattle.

 

[DMK]

I'm not doubting you Badger Arms. I was just commenting that it's odd. Like you said, it's the ATF, what do we expect?

Good advice about getting something in writing on ATF letterhead if you plan on selling one of these. This is exactly the type of vague legalese that young, eager ATF agents like to take advantage of.

If I ever sell mine, it's not going to be with a PG anyway.

 

[Badger Arms]

Okay, you called me out.

Per the BATF office in Seattle. They directed me to 18 USC Section 922 (b)1 which states:

"(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --

"(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age"

The inspector then directed me to the definition of a shotgun which is:

"(5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger."

When I asked what she would classify the weapon as, she said that it is, technically, 'unclassified' but clarified that it does not fall under the definition of an "Any Other Weapon" or "Firearm" as the BATF uses these definitions. These definitions are drawn from 1934 and 1968 laws and various other laws and rulings. Since these definitions are a matter of law, the BATF cannot create another category for "Pistol Grip Shotgun." They are also limited by the law in that they cannot classify it in any other category. As such, it falls under the standard rules for firearms which still means you have to be 21 or older.

There is a misconception that the law says, "You can't buy a handgun if you are under 21 years of age." In fact, the law states as quoted above that, "If you are over 17 and under 20 years of age, you can ONLY buy a shotgun or rifle by the definitions of the GCA of 1968." The categories for an 18-21 year old are therefore limited by specific inclusion rather than exclusion. Only shotguns or rifles.

I'd do a victory dance for having found this, but I am strangely saddened that these things are so unconstitutionally vague.

Note that I added emphasis for clarity in the above quotes.

 

[DMK]

That is pretty sad, that we have to look up the definition of shotgun to notice the gotcha in that law. I mean most folks would think they knew what a shotgun was by looking at it.

Thanks for bringing that to our attention BA.

 

[Handy]

I think alot of this comes from the fact that we are talking about shotguns, and shotguns are not rifles. A shotgun has an 18" min. barrel length, a rifle 16". They are just view differently.



But look at it this way; if you buy a revolver, no matter how long the barrel, it is always a pistol.

But what happens if you take the stock off of a pistol gripped rifle? I guess you've made a pistol. But then again there is no law that you can't do that. An 18 year old may not be able to buy a pistol, but he can make or own one.

 

[bogie]

Tell ya what - you just go right ahead and get the pistol gripped shotgun. Load it up with a full power buckshot or deer slug shell, hold it out there, and pull the trigger.

When your hand/wrist gets out of the cast, and you can type again, you can tell us what it was like.

Yeah, I've fired the things. Not one-handed tho, and only with very light loads. And I'm a large non-recoil-sensitive person...

 

[spankaveli]

i didn't plan on firing it without a pistol grip out front, and certainly not without at least gripping the forend. i'm not an idiot

maybe ill just buy a mossy 500 and sprint for a folding stock grip

 

[Justin]

Seeing as this is a thread debating the relative classification of a pistol-gripped shotgun and doesn't have anything to do with rifles, I'm gonna boot this thread over to the shotgun forum.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I haven't seen anything restricting the sale of a pistol gripped shotgun due to it not being a shoulder fired weapon (Not saying you are wrong BA, just that I've not seen it).

While a pistol gripped shotgun isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder, it is designed to be fired using two hands. They must either classify it as a pistol, AOW, a normal shotgun or create a category for it. You can't be arrested for purchasing a firearm simply because it doesn't fall into one of ATF''s defined categories.

It can't be considered a pistol because the barrel diameter, if rifled, would make it a destructive device, smoothbore would make it an AOW and also by the fact it is not designed to be fired with one hand. It can't be considered an AOW because it doesn't have a barrel <18" or overall length <26". By process of elimination, it must be a shotgun since that is the only official category remaining under the current laws.

Even ATF calls a pistol gripped firearm a shotgun. In the following letter, ATF stated that a pistol gripped shotgun with a barrel of 18" is a "firearm." They then state that a gun made from that "shotgun" would fall under NFA regulations.

The Winchester, Model 1300, 12-gauge pump action shotgun with pistol grip and 18-inch barrel is a classified as a "firearm" as defined.

A weapon made from a shotgun having an overall barrel length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels less than 18 inches in length is a "firearm" as defined in Title 26 United States Code U.S.C., Chapter 53, Section 5845(a)(2) of the National Firearms Act (NFA). A handgun constructed from a new, unused receiver which had never been assembled as a shotgun would not be a weapon made from a shotgun as defined.

As defined in Section 5845(e) of the NFA, the term "any other weapon," includes a pistol or revolver with a smooth bore designed to fire a fixed shotgun shell. A pistol with a rifled bore would not be an "any other weapon" as defined.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter10.txt

Be nice if someone had the actual ATF ruling on this matter.

 

[Badger Arms]

MP5:

BATF doesn't have to make a ruling, the law is clear enough even though you have to look in a few places to find it. Your Winchester 1300 with an 18" barrel is over 26" in length and therefore does not fall under the law you quote. Opening this can of worms could, quite easily, lead to the BATF classifying any folding stock or pistol grip on a rifle or shotgun as an AOW. They've done worse. BTW, there is no prohibition in the law that says an 18 year old can't OWN one, just that an FFL cannot sell or transfer one to them.

Nowhere in the law does it say anything about two hands. It's very specific that the gun must be DESIGNED TO BE FIRED FROM THE SHOULDER in order to classify it as a shotgun or rifle.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

You may be right, but the entire thing is extremely stupid. If the dealer wants to sell a pistol grip shotgun to an 18 year old, he simply snaps on a full stock and sells the shotgun. Then he gives the 18 year old a really good deal for trading his shotgun stock in on a pistol grip. Might even be an equal trade, no money needed.

And if you want to put a 12" barrel on your shotgun, and that shotgun left the factory with a shoulder stock, even though it may not have one installed right now, you still have to register it as a SBS instead of AOW. Does that mean, according to ATF's reasoning, if the shotgun left the factory with a shoulder stock and the dealer installed a pistol grip, he can then sell it to an 18 year old because ATF claims it's still a shotgun?

 

[Dave McCracken]

A non issue, IMO. PG only shotguns are for the movies, not the real world.

Any PG fan contesting that is welcome to come shoot agin' me. Loser buys the coffee, results posted rat cheer..

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Dave,

Yep! Same for those folding stocks on a shotgun. Way too painful for me. But finding ATF loopholes is one of my hobbies.

 

[Badger Arms]

Dave, there is a limited but strong niche for PG shotguns. When Fishing in brushy territory and you have to wade into your fishing spot, you probably should have a PG. That happens to me and many others in Alaska quite often. It's also the better gun for aircraft, Motorcycles, ATV's, and small cars. Folding stocks are fine, but I haven't found one I like yet.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Storage issues are one thing,Badger, being able to HIT with the thing is another. Chances are I've shot more rounds with a PG than anyone posting here. And, I did it while qualifying over 90% on agency courses. In short time frame, high risk level crises, they're a very poor tool.

Maybe being an oversized human prejudices me but I see little trouble in packing a standard short barrelled 870 while exercising a fly rod.

 

[ajacobs]

Badger, thanks for all your research. I certainly think the waters are very murky. And I am sure yours as well as the BATFE guy or gals interpertation is accurate. In practice though (and it sounds like it may be illegal) they are routenely sold to 18 year olds. Additionally with the logic you pointed out no one can buy a rifled barreled shotgun until they are 21. Also something done all the time.