Shots Fired- How to prepare for workplace shooting

[Fish Miner]

A couple of weeks ago there was a shooting at the building next to mine. It was covered here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=504448&highlight=Fish+Miner

Today the University Police came over to show us a video called "Shots Fired"- How to prepare for a workplace incident.

I don't even know where to begin- first there was some good information about how to react- like if you think you hear a shot- get out. alot of people second guess what they heard and that costs time. Dont grab an officer if they are responding to the scene etc. Pretty common sense stuff.

The bad stuff was all the rest. Worthless comes to mind, dangerous as well. They instructed us to hide, lock rooms, barricade doors. BUT if the shooter did come in- "you need to be the most aggressive you have ever been". The showed- I swear- a lady throwing a fake potted plant at a man with a AK.

:banghead:

If you have ever seen this video let me know what you think. If not just remember- you are the only person you can count on.

 

[beatcop]

"Train like you fight"....it may seem useless, but logical thinking and course of action analysis don't do so well when folks are getting shot. So, you show them the obvious in the hope that they retain 10% of it.

It is what it is...a guide to living another minute until people with guns show up to remove the threat.

 

[gunnutery]

If they encourage people to be violent against a violent attacker, then why don't they address legal concealed carry? I realize the video is made to reach across state lines and different carry laws, but it's becoming more common I think, or at least more talked about.

I can never stand the government propaganda for preparing for emergencies, they never list aquiring a firearm and the knowledge of safe handling.

 

[gunnutery]

Well said Beatcop.

 

[Sam1911]

you need to be the most aggressive you have ever been". The showed- I swear- a lady throwing a fake potted plant at a man with a AK.

Wow. That sounds a LOT better than I would have expected. Sure, we all wish they'd say, "draw your concealed carry weapon, coordinate lines of fire with the other armed members of your class/office group, and place two shots to the body and one to the head when the active shooter breeches your barricade." But, until and unless our society goes through a sea change the likes of which we've never experienced, that isn't going to happen.

Hide, lock doors, barricade doors, make yourself too much of a hassle as a target -- an active shooter doesn't have all day and knows it. If he's going to have to spend 30 minutes with an axe to get through the firedoor you've sealed, he's going to go looking for easier prey. Sounds like they're hitting on solid ground, there.

In the event of a face-to-face confrontation, for them to say that you should use explosive, violent resistance, using whatever improvised tools you can get your hands on, is AWESOME, in my book.

Seems like they're finally moving past the "be passive, don't resist, maybe he won't hurt you" advice that just gets folks killed. Remember, an armed man against a ROOM full of enraged, if unarmed, hostile folks may take a few with him, but if his targets are aggressive and persistant, he's going to lose.

What bothered you, exactly, about the advice given?

-Sam

 

[Fish Miner]

Exactly! They kept harping on the need to attack as if you life depended on it- to use whatever you had available (except a gun)- and to call the police.

They said that most of the office shootings would be over in a few minutes. Well I sure would feel better if I was protected with something other then a fake potted plant. I can shoot my stapler almost across the room- will that help if I get the bad guy right in the eye?

Here is the company/ website for the video. http://www.cppssite.com/

I agree Sam- some fight is better then none- and some training is better then none. But the bottom line is that my employer feels that this is the extent of their ability to help us. Not add more police, not add self defense classes, not allow CCW. And for that matter the two police officers in the room could not give straight answer on having a gun in our car. One said I could carry in my building till the other stepped in and said I could not. They were not happy about telling a room of people that you could keep on e in your car.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, chances are that your employer has policies specifically against guns in the workplace, so they aren't going to bring in a training aid that says you should violate that policy.

Many police don't know the law, exactly, on where you can have your gun and where you can't, and certainly don't know your company's policies, either.

I don't know FL law, myself. Here in PA the officers could tell you that it is legal for you to have your gun with you on private property, regardless of company policy. But that isn't true everywhere and most cops have a real hard time advising a citizen to such a course of action.

Further, so what if you do have a gun in your car? If you can exit the building to get to it -- exit the building and LEAVE! You don't have a duty or the authority to go hunt down the shooter, and you're already far out of harm's way. Not sure what that added to the conversation at hand in any event.

Your employer is in business to turn a profit, as all businesses are, and is probably only going to do whatever they feel is required regarding employee safety training and education. Probably aught to have videos explaining how to quit smoking, lose some wieght, wear your seatbelt, and avoid drinking and driving. After all, every single one of their employees is far more likely to die of heart failure, in an auto wreck, or even to be shot in a robbery, than to face a workplace shooting -- which are exceedingly rare. Quite frankly, I'm surprised they'd do anything AT ALL on this subject.

But they certainly aren't going to disucss CCW, especially if they have policies against weapons on their property, and most businesses do these days.

-Sam

 

[Fish Miner]

Agreed- my intent is to escape the office and would never be to go back in looking to be a hero. Fact is I would prob kick out my window and jump down to the ground. I have a little porch roof under my window so its only a foot or two then a relatively short hop to the ground ~8'

It just shows how hard it is to protect 60K people on a campus or research park when there are only a handful of cops and no one wants to empower the sheep to handle the wolf.

 

[mcdonl]

The show is not great, but "The Best Defense" just covered this topic on their last episode.

Some simple stuff... awareness. Did a guy that got canned last week just walk in? Do you know your "tactical" exits? May be the fire exit but in an active shooting that 2nd story down to the garden may not be bad. Also, active shooters may be using the common exits as "funnels" similar to the battle plan shown in 300.... So, an alternate exit is good.

Do you have first aid? Do you know how to use it. YOU are the first responder if you live and do not get out.

Simple stuff.

 

[Gouranga]

...a fake potted plant

maybe you could throw the video tape at him. You might to more damage, and have more accuracy. LOL. I will stick with my MP 40

 

[NMGonzo]

I have a nice window at my office, ground level.



If someone comes my direction with an AK, hopefully I can spot them before they spot me, shoot the window out, and run like hell.

Literally; there is NOWHERE to hide in my office but the rooftop.

 

[griz]

Given that a lot of advice quoted now is along the lines of "call 911 and wait to be saved", I liked this line that seems simple but apparently is NOT common sense:

.....how to react- like if you think you hear a shot- get out.

 

[Texas Gun Person]

Can't have firearms where I work... but I would like to think where I work is a little more prepared that most work places. Being a defense contractor... I work at Lockheed Martin. Plenty of M16's and M4's around.

 

[Corey]

a lady throwing a fake potted plant at a man with a AK.

Forget the potted plant, I'm going to use a fire extinguisher. Spray them in the face with the chemical, then beat them on the head with it when it's empty. Of course, that is assuming you don't get shot first.

 

[Oleg Volk]

A topic worth addressing would have been how to avoid friendly fire from cops and other co-workers if you are armed.

 

[svaz]

We have the same "guidelines" in the break room. That last option, "be the most aggressive you have ever been" made me cough coffee out of my nose. How can you teach, legislate, and adjudicate timidity and cowardice to entire generations and then have the gall to say, "ok, man-up and fight".

Those that would fight don't need some ridiculous events map to tell them to do what they are going to do anyway, and those who wouldn't do it don't need to get it into their heads that they have the ability to go all Bruce Lee just because they want to. Better the last options should read, "Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye."

 

[X-Rap]

Unless there were metal detectors I would carry to my office and store in a lockbox in my desk if need be. If a gun was not an option a baton, knife, and pint size bear spray would be there instead.
If I had a private office I would get one of those security props that fit under the knob and grip the carpet wedging the door shut. If it is possible to get out a window then I would plan on that even if it required a length of rope.
As more of these mass shootings take place people will evolve into better combatants and we will have much the same situation as we see in airplanes today where the people refuse to be victims and choose to fight instead. The teacher in Denver last week shows some of that spirit. The authorities will continue to have mixed feelings on this because we are all better controlled when we are weak and submissive.

 

[9mmepiphany]

How can you teach, legislate, and adjudicate timidity and cowardice to entire generations and then have the gall to say, "ok, man-up and fight".

Those that would fight don't need some ridiculous events map to tell them to do what they are going to do anyway, and those who wouldn't do it don't need to get it into their heads that they have the ability to go all Bruce Lee just because they want to.

it might sound odd, but the point isn't to ask them to "man-up"...it's giving them permission to. it's an organizational behavior/culture thing

 

[brboyer]

OP works at a school administration building...........his options are therefore, unfortunately, limited.

 

[TexasBill]

Ah, lucky me. I can OC in my office. Of course, I work at home...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The bad stuff was all the rest. Worthless comes to mind, dangerous as well. They instructed us to hide, lock rooms, barricade doors. BUT if the shooter did come in- "you need to be the most aggressive you have ever been". The showed- I swear- a lady throwing a fake potted plant at a man with a AK.

Hiding, locking rooms, and barricading have all had levels of success in the past and there is some very good logic to that way of thinking. Locked and barricaded rooms slowed down Cho quite a bit at VT. People hit in cabinets and the freezer in Luby's. So while it may not be ideal, if you are otherwise trapped in a building with a killer, not being visible is the first consideration to being safe. It isn't absolute, but the shooter is less likely to target those he can't see and even less likely to target those that he doesn't know are there.

If you have a fake potted plant to throw, then you throw the fake potted plant. People often underestimate the value of improvised weapons, often completely ignoring their usefulness. Planes were hijacked by guys with knives at a time when people were eating and had metal silverware including knives and forks. Go figure.

Look at the things in a convenience store on the video of when it is being robbed and notice all the people present who could do nothing and yet pressurized bug spray, oven cleaner, etc. is a good substitute for pepper spray. A can of beer can be thrown as easily as a rock.

Ever been hit with a metal stapler? How about a trash can?

Being without a gun should not mean considering yourself to be defenseless.

 

[mljdeckard]

Always sit next to an exit.

 

[X-Rap]

Your own personal fire extinguisher would look good next to your desk.

 

[Telumehtar]

The other thing to consider about the "be aggressive" line is that in the past, hostage situations as opposes to random shootings were in some ways more prevalent, at least from a news view point.

Mass shootings in the numbers we've seen are a more modern thing, and in the past, not rocking the boat of a hostage situation was largely seen as the way to survive it.

Today however, after things like Columbine, and 9/11, playing the part of a passive hostage is turning out to not be a viable survival strategy. Instead fighting tooth and nail, and finding an escape, or re-asserting dominance in a situation by neutralizing the threat is the required courses of action in order to survive.

Case in point, how likely do you think it is that an airplane will ever be captured by terrorists in this country within the lifetime of the people who have lived through 9/11. Hell we have news stories now about passengers beating the hell out of people who even get a little testy with the flight attendants. And I know personally that I would go out fighting because aside from my own life being in danger, the lives of possibly thousands on the ground are at stake if I let the terrorists win.

Personally if the video is promoting fighting back when cornered in a mass shooter situation, I'm all for it. In fact if it becomes that the reaction of most people is to fight back when cornered, and several mass shootings are cut short because of this behavior, then perhaps other potential mass shooters will re-evaluate the effectiveness of their plans.

 

[X-Rap]

A small number of people reacting with overwhelming violence would probably stopped most mass shootings with only a few dead, picking yourself to be one of those few is the hard part.
I agree that the paradigm has shifted with our attitude toward responding to violence and feel certain that as these deranged people realize that they won't succeed or at least will suffer if they try they will just kill themselves.