Preparing for school shootings.

[jon_in_wv]

There are two basic philosophies when it comes to preparing for school shooting. Passive, fleeing or feigning death, or aggressive, rushing or attacking the shooter.

1. Some schools teach kids to lock the doors. Get on the floor and if the shooter is around, play dead. We can see how well that tactic worked at VA TECH. (I won't say the name of that guy BTW.)

2. Some have proposed the idea of rushing the shooter. I believe this would be effective. BUT it relies on the courage of the kids. I have a hard time believing a bunch of high schoolers or college kids are going to actively rush an armed intruder.

3. Some proposed a missile approach. Each kid has at the very least one text book. If the shooter enters the room every one throws every thing at hand at him, textbooks, pens, staplers, EVERYTHING. The shooter would be struck by several missiles at once. Making it difficult to shoot, possible disabling him, wounding him, or forcing him to retreat. If a school bought a couple dozen foam books they could train the classrooms to go into action when they see the shooter as a group rather than hiding or waiting to get shot.

4. The fourth technique would be to flee. Lock the doors, go out the windows and run like the dickens. The only flaw to this plan is that the school must be accountable for the students and the kids would have to run to a rally point. This means a shooter could fire a few shots, get everyone to run to the rally point, then go to the rally point and shoot them like fish in a barrel. The remedy would be to have the armed security at the rally point to deter this.

What do you think of these plans?? Personally, I think the more aggressive plans are better. If the shooter knows that when he shows his weapon he is going to be met with some type of resistance it is more likely he will never try it in the first place. Kids will do what they are taught to do for the most part. If they were taught to aggressively respond to the attack the attack would probably never happen.

I think the passive approach encourages the shooters to know that he will not met resistance. The ultimate solution would seem to be an armed presence at the school but weren't there armed security at VT?

Have you guys heard of any other plans? What do you think is the best deterrent? CCW on college campuses is an option but what about k-12?

 

[RX-178]

Armed teachers. Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Thats one option. But it ignores the fact that MOST teacher are liberals who oppose firearms. Many schools would not have a single armed teacher and the teachers union would fight that option strongly. Getting legislation passed to make this happen would be for all practical purposes impossible There may be some exceptions but that doesn't help you if your kids go to one of the schools that isn't one of those exceptions.

I used to live in Minnesota were the teachers LITERALLY taught kids to hug trees, taught the kids to tell their parents that teachers needed a pay raise, and to tell their parents that guns are bad. I don't see it happening in places like that.

By the way, I agree with you, I just don't think its going to happen.

 

[Treo]

Ummm, go to school in a state that allow CC on campus.

I carry on campus all the time just not in scrubs.

 

[Rokyudai]

treo,

If you can, a kel tec .380 or the new ruger lcp definitely will carry in scrubs....


http://www.ruger-firearms.com/LCP/


thoughts?

 

[MedLogic]

At the very least the school principal should be trained to use a firearm. After training the weapon should be carried by the principal at all times. School security in our country is pathetic, it will take a terrorist attack like Beslan to open the eyes of the parents and school districts. My daughter's school for example (3rd grade) has a closed circuit camera on the front door. The camera is not monitored, the door is never locked, and there is one older lady sitting in the office. The thought of a terrorist or other scumbag attack on the school is freightning. Think about the number of children and staff that could be killed with a single semi-auto pistol and spare mags. Imagine the best police in the world, The UberCop. Response time for a 911 call from patrol to the school...3 minutes...Then there would be a call for backup, the officer would then have to get out of his car, open the trunk, grab his rifle (assuming he is one of the few that have one, and it's loaded) and make it to the entrance of the school. How much time has gone by? I'll be overly generous, these are SuperCops afterall, and say 4 minutes from the 911 call to entry.

How many rounds can you fire from a semi-auto with a 15rnd mag in 4 minutes? 100+?

 

[GEM]

Hate to be a downer, but lots of the so-called tactical plans aren't really realistic but dependent on lucky circumstance.

If you are a reasonble competent and fast shooter (Cho practiced) and you walk into a large classroom (where no one can immediately tackle you), you can shoot about 10 people in a few seconds. Watch a match. Kids sit in rows like targets. Most will be frozen. The others will have to get up and charge you, getting out of chairs and running over bodies and taking hits will be difficult.

Forget accepting substitues like throwing your pencil or laptap. Lobby for real concealed carry for those who have permits and want to carry at school.

Also, shut the **** up about liberal teachers, there are many teachers who would carrry and we don't need that kind of moronic raving that pollutes the chance that we could get the ability. Also, you won't trust a teacher because .... I probably won't trust a lot of other folks too. But you have the right.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I'm not saying the missile approach is perfect. But if you train at SOMETHING its better than nothing. What incentive does a shooter have to try it if he knows everyone has been taught to meet him with resistance? They do these things because they know there will be none. Its about power.

 

[MedLogic]

Parents should have the right to open carry at their child's school. Look at Isreal, how many terrorist toilet bugs have been put down by a parent with a pistol. There's a GREAT organization we should form, PwP - Parents with Pistols. I would happily patrol the school grounds all day long with my AR, I'm thinking the terrorist/shooter would get a good look and move on.

The state gives me the right to protect my daughter off school grounds. Who's protecting her at school? No one.

You can't fault the government though, we need a 2000+ body count to come together and do anything. <---Note intense sarcasm!

 

[wyoshooter]

It is a great idea to think of arming the teachers. Where I am, it is ILLEGAL to carry regardless of whether you have a concealed carry permit or not. There is a push for many more campuses to allow concealed carry but currently, Utah is the only state that allows carry at the university. As far as I know, it is also illegal to carry a weapon on any grade school, middle school, junior high school or high school.

By the way, I am an instructor at the university here and have looked into this and have been informed that NO ONE other that LE can carry weapons on campus.

I personally would love to be able to legally carry a weapon. I have considered doing otherwise but have yet to break the law.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

I just hope I'm in near a chemistry lab if anything were to happen.

I hope I'd have the sense to start tossing chemicals at the guy.

 

[TAB]

The sad truth is, if some one comes into a class room and starts shooting there is very little anyone can do to stop him from emptying a mag into that class room.


As was said above students are lined up, normally packed in tight, at a desk and paying attention to the teacher. Shooting fish in a barrel comes to mind.

if some one is willing to give up thier life to kill some one else, they are very, very hard to stop.

 

[jon_in_wv]

IF the teacher is armed, who does the gunman shoot first? After the teacher is shot, then what? I don't think any of these answers are as practically effective as they are a deterrent. The current system of "Gun Free Zone" is ridiculous and promotes school shootings. Why is these shootings only seem to take place in the only areas where there aren't supposed to be guns? These cowardly shooters aren't looking for a gunfight, they are looking for power and revenge. If they have the possibility of facing an armed teacher or students I feel that is an effective deterrent but in the absence of that, then what? Or what should we teach the students to do in addition to that?

 

[swift535]

Nothing has irritated me more in the last year than people making claims about the VaTech shooting, when those claims do nothing but show their ignorance.

VT has its own police force. VT Police, Blacksburg police, Sherriff's department, and several other local forces responded. The VT police aren't posted as 'armed guards' at every doorway. They operate like any other police force - they patrol their jurisdiction.

Also, its hard to read the OP, specifically the passive part, and not be offended. It sounds very condescending. The sarcastic "We can see how well that tactic worked at VA TECH" isn't needed. Its easy to say one thing on the internet and sound like a tough guy, but being in a situation where you're unarmed, trapped in a room, being shot at from 15+ feet away is a very different situation. And while it might not have been your intent, what was said is easily read as offensive and making a joke out of what happened.

Anyways, as to the topic at hand, I think throwing textbooks at somebody would kind of be a joke. Sure it might work, and you could argue that there isn't much to lose in a situation like that, but if I were on a suicide mission I doubt I'd be dissuaded by a textbook.

I've had similiar conversations with a lot of my friends about carrying on campus since the shooting. It just isn't an easy question to answer. I wouldn't feel comfortable with other people carrying on campus unless they had to go through a course where they fired at least a few hundred rounds. As it is now, CCW permits in VA are pretty easy to get. It shouldn't be a hassle to carry, but I think the ccw classes need to focus more on range time instead of just sitting in a classroom for 3+ hours. If you carry or shoot guns its your responsibility to practice safety with things like muzzle control, etc. And a lot of shooters don't - something that would get even worse in a school shooting situation. I'm talking to you, gamers who buy a glock because it was in Counter-Strike.

 

[EHCRain10]

I have to agree with swift, there is a good point in saying that the training required for a CCW permit isnt much and i would support a more intense training requirement.
However many people who have a CCW also take it upon themselves to get more training than is required. I would just like to see the lowest level of training raised.

 

[GEM]

IF the teacher is armed, who does the gunman shoot first?

If the gunman knows some will be armed, maybe he won't show up? Every think of that. There is precedent that some loonies avoided places with guns.

No damn thought sometimes. If one recalls, the shooter sometimes goes to another room after the first round.

In one school shooting case, the teacher held the door closed with his body and died.

In another case, they locked the door and the shooter shot it open and came in and shot people.

In at least two other cases, teachers or students hearing shots, retrieved guns from cars and saved the day.

Perhaps, those in the other room deserve a chance. Also, if you actually know something about gun fighting, there is no guarantee that you are killed by the shot, maybe you should have a chance.

Duh, Duh, Duh. :banghead:

Let's just ban guns and carry ninja laptops.

 

[Treo]

QUOTE: "Utah is the only state that allows carry at the university."

ummmm no, Colorado allows CC at several colleges. Actually it allows carry at ALL colleges & then allows the college to make their own determination.

 

[TallPine]

Maybe have book throwing practice as part of P/E class ???

 

[VARifleman]

ummmm no, Colorado allows CC at several colleges. Actually it allows carry at ALL colleges & then allows the college to make their own determination.

So does VA, but UT is the only state that says that schools cannot ban carry from their campus. Most aren't going to carry at school because getting kicked out of college on a weapons violation is a pretty serious deterant.

 

[Treo]

I did not know that, damn THR IS educational

 

[jon_in_wv]

Firstly, its complete ignorance to think I was referring to VT as a joke. The simple fact I refuse to repeat the name of the monster that committed that atrocity, and my desire to find better answers, should have spoken for itself.

I though it had been discussed enough that I wouldn't have to be specific but: I was referring to specific account by survivors who stated that then the shooter appeared they lied on the ground and played dead. The shooter left the room, waited, and then re-entered to shoot anyone who had stood up. Ofter that he walked around the room and executed them all one by one as the kids lie there and continued to play dead. The only two survivors in that room, by the account that I read, lived only by the sheer luck that he missed them or chose to move on. My argument was, since that tactic FAILED to produce the desired result, which would be to save lives, that it should be discouraged. If you think that is a joke thats your problem, not mine. Take out your hostility on someone who deserves it rather than attacking me.

The reason for the original post is to invoke DISCUSSION not to get a bunch of people to agree with me or attack me for whatever reason. I want to hear what you guys think is viable to teach the kids in school. Armed adults is the obvious answer but what about the kids? What do we teach them to do?? I know what the answer would be for me, I work in a prison and we have contingency plans to get out of the prison when the population riots. Not one gunman but dozens or hundreds of inmates possibly with weapons. This involves a construction scheme, the use of armed patrols that can cover your escape, and hardened safe harbor corridors or rooms. Then you have to train personal in a specific course of action for that occurence. We don't have the luxury of such things with our kids at school. The question is, what should our school be teaching our kids to do when this happens? CCW for parents in most cases wouldn't make much difference. Most parents don't carry, and most parents are at work when the kids are in school. Arming teachers is a good idea but most teachers are not likely to go along with that. At some point, even if you do the first two things, you have to have some contingency plan for the KIDS. What do we have them do?? That is my primary question.

Also, CCW is a slam dunk for college campuses. I believe that is the one best answer on college campuses. But what about elementary schools and high schools. Shootings are just as likely to happen there.

Have you guys heard of any other plans? What do you think is the best deterrent? CCW on college campuses is an option but what about k-12?

 

[mlw332]

I think that ccw on college campuses would be great just for the fact that a few armed students and teachers that were willing to fight back and had the means to do so at the moment its needed most would save alot of lives, and if it is known that most people are carrying it will most likely make a would be killer think twice about what he is about to do(not saying it will stop him because someone with a motive will do anything)

 

[jackdanson]

Armed teachers. Nothing else needs to be said.

+1 the fact that it would be rare for one to actually carry is irrelevant. My large highschool had 1 resource officer. If 2 teachers (out of over 50) had carried that would have been significantly better than nothing and would be a strong deterrent.

 

[retgarr]

What do you think of the idea of throwing knives. My school allows knoves with blades of 3" or less (of course if it's a bit longer no one gets upset). Since I can't carry and charging the shooter doesn't seem to work out well I'd want something with range. A throwing knife seems to fit that bill.

 

[mlw332]

seems a knife is better than a book but i still would rather have a pistol because i dont throw so well