DAVIDSDIVAD
member
Well, I don't know, it just seems that one guy with little training inside the building is better than 20 SWAT guys with tons of training standing outside.
Preparing for school shootings.
- Thread starter jon_in_wv
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Well, I don't know, it just seems that one guy with little training inside the building is better than 20 SWAT guys with tons of training standing outside.
On the Policeone.com site there is a discussion of single officer response as compared to waiting for SWAT. The rational is that in the 4 minutes for SWAT to arrive, you can have 15 or so dead and the body count increasing.
One argument is that the single officer can't clear.
The crux of the matter is the risks of a single officer getting taken down vs. the massive early killings.
It is hard to imagine how someone trying to stop someone actually shooting people would act to their detriment. They are either shot or not.
Let's think. Cho is in the room shooting people. Tell me the detriment that an armed teacher presents as compared the ongoing hail of gunfire.
Also, there seems to be a view that the teacher becomes a one person SWAT team and must go a-clearing. This ignores the view that shooters have moved from room to room.
I could make a list. Perhaps, defending the room you are in makes some sense if you hear fire next door.
However, given our Brady Bunch, that never seems to occur to folks. Or you could hold the door and get shot through it, like at VT.
Yesterday, I got an ad from the NRA for a t-shirt that said the 2nd Amend was the first line against terrorists in for homeland security.
Seems not to be the case for many here.
If only the Jews had guns in Germany - oh, wait - they were not trained SWAT members. It might have made the situation worse. Maybe they would have accidentially shot Grandma Silverman instead of the Nazi?
One argument is that the single officer can't clear.
The crux of the matter is the risks of a single officer getting taken down vs. the massive early killings.
It is hard to imagine how someone trying to stop someone actually shooting people would act to their detriment. They are either shot or not.
Let's think. Cho is in the room shooting people. Tell me the detriment that an armed teacher presents as compared the ongoing hail of gunfire.
Also, there seems to be a view that the teacher becomes a one person SWAT team and must go a-clearing. This ignores the view that shooters have moved from room to room.
I could make a list. Perhaps, defending the room you are in makes some sense if you hear fire next door.
However, given our Brady Bunch, that never seems to occur to folks. Or you could hold the door and get shot through it, like at VT.
Yesterday, I got an ad from the NRA for a t-shirt that said the 2nd Amend was the first line against terrorists in for homeland security.
Seems not to be the case for many here.
If only the Jews had guns in Germany - oh, wait - they were not trained SWAT members. It might have made the situation worse. Maybe they would have accidentially shot Grandma Silverman instead of the Nazi?
nofishbob
Member
One passive defense idea I came up with from looking at our elementary school is to design single story schools with an exitto the outside from EACH ROOM. When the shooting starts, the children could evacuate from lots of separate exits, reducing the "fish in a barrel" problem, and there would be no choke points to give the shooter a second chance.
Spending some time on improving the security of the classroom's door to the hallway would also help.
Spending some time on improving the security of the classroom's door to the hallway would also help.
We don't have the financial means nor the political will to harden our schools to the point we can protect them from this type of attack.
We don't have the financial means nor the political will to put trained, armed responders into all of our schools either. This includes arming teachers, administrators, aides and custodial staff. You can't hand out firearms, give some kind of minimal training and expect people who didn't sign up to be armed responders to be an effective deterrent.
The only partial solution is to eliminate the stupid laws that prohibit law abiding people from carrying weapons in schools. Then there would at least be a minimal chance that an armed person might be in a position to act.
Despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on the internet, school shootings are a very remote danger, our children face many more dangers then being shot by a crazed gunman in their class room. How many posters in this thread are concerned about school bus safety?
I predict that if we issued weapons and minimal training to school personnel, THR would be filed with threads about how teachers can't shoot.
Jeff
We don't have the financial means nor the political will to put trained, armed responders into all of our schools either. This includes arming teachers, administrators, aides and custodial staff. You can't hand out firearms, give some kind of minimal training and expect people who didn't sign up to be armed responders to be an effective deterrent.
The only partial solution is to eliminate the stupid laws that prohibit law abiding people from carrying weapons in schools. Then there would at least be a minimal chance that an armed person might be in a position to act.
Despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on the internet, school shootings are a very remote danger, our children face many more dangers then being shot by a crazed gunman in their class room. How many posters in this thread are concerned about school bus safety?
I predict that if we issued weapons and minimal training to school personnel, THR would be filed with threads about how teachers can't shoot.
Jeff
ZombieHunter
Member
GEM~
not to be argumentative but can you give me some links to the stories where the people went to their cars and returned with guns to save the day? Would be useful in my arguments with family.
not to be argumentative but can you give me some links to the stories where the people went to their cars and returned with guns to save the day? Would be useful in my arguments with family.
ZombieHunter
Member
Being a college student and a substitute teacher in a school with documented "discharges" this is something that's always on my mind. The trick isn't to put forth "if only we could change" the answer is "what can we do NOW while we're fighting/hoping for change?"
Yes I realize the likelihood of a school shooting is remote, but remote isn't zero. I've thought about all the approaches to CCW in school and like one of the posters said...the fear of expulsion and prosecution for a weapons violation > my principles.
I hate that that is my final answer. But I know what I'll do if there's ever a shot fired in any building I'm in. I carry a knife, everyone will be as far from the door as possible and I will be there waiting for him to barge in. Hopefully I'll be able to use my knife before he can use his gun.
...or at least that's how it works in my mind...
Yes I realize the likelihood of a school shooting is remote, but remote isn't zero. I've thought about all the approaches to CCW in school and like one of the posters said...the fear of expulsion and prosecution for a weapons violation > my principles.
I hate that that is my final answer. But I know what I'll do if there's ever a shot fired in any building I'm in. I carry a knife, everyone will be as far from the door as possible and I will be there waiting for him to barge in. Hopefully I'll be able to use my knife before he can use his gun.
...or at least that's how it works in my mind...
I am a LEO for a large agency in the southwest. My wife is an LEO also. The sad fact is that LEO's have yet to stop a school shooting. The time it takes to respond is usually far too great. Fast courageous action by those on scene is the best bet (as it is in most cases.) Our current policy is to wait for two officers and then go. We are trained however, that the decision to wait or go by yourself is up to you when you arrive on scene. You and your loved ones will be the ones that have to live with what you chose to do or not do.
There are many different search techniques. With a first officer going in alone, the idea is that no flash bangs, etc will not alert the shooter to police presence and have him barricade or take hostages. Also, the rapid response time will hopefully catch the shooter off guard. You will not be able to do a detailed search. You will be able to do the best you can, as fast as you can, to locate the shooter and stop them.That being said, even if you are close, you are looking at 2-5 minute response time to being on scene, grabbing your rifle, and going.
Armed students would create a "distraction" for police clearing the building, yes. IMHO though, the distraction would be negated by the likelihood of the on scene responder being able to end the rampage.
Should we teach students to throw objects? I dont know. Clearly, what we are doing is not working. Our local schools have a color card system, where a different color card under the door means all clear, wounded, shooter in room, etc. Upon lockdown (assuming of course the shooter chooses a time when all students are in a class room and the admin. people are able to realize what is happening and get word out) teachers are instructed to lock their doors and place the corresponding card under the door.
Someone above asked for links to people (some armed, some not) stopping shootings. A few are below.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3117
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm
http://www.cnn.com/US/9805/21/school.shooting.pm.2/
(They fail to point out in this report that the student that subdued him was a hunter and shooter, and knew when the gun went dry)
http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/25/school.shooting.pm/
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/13/national/main2466711.shtml
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html
http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=c9e77ca8-29be-43ba-aa93-8066ddb699fb
There are many different search techniques. With a first officer going in alone, the idea is that no flash bangs, etc will not alert the shooter to police presence and have him barricade or take hostages. Also, the rapid response time will hopefully catch the shooter off guard. You will not be able to do a detailed search. You will be able to do the best you can, as fast as you can, to locate the shooter and stop them.That being said, even if you are close, you are looking at 2-5 minute response time to being on scene, grabbing your rifle, and going.
Armed students would create a "distraction" for police clearing the building, yes. IMHO though, the distraction would be negated by the likelihood of the on scene responder being able to end the rampage.
Should we teach students to throw objects? I dont know. Clearly, what we are doing is not working. Our local schools have a color card system, where a different color card under the door means all clear, wounded, shooter in room, etc. Upon lockdown (assuming of course the shooter chooses a time when all students are in a class room and the admin. people are able to realize what is happening and get word out) teachers are instructed to lock their doors and place the corresponding card under the door.
Someone above asked for links to people (some armed, some not) stopping shootings. A few are below.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3117
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm
http://www.cnn.com/US/9805/21/school.shooting.pm.2/
(They fail to point out in this report that the student that subdued him was a hunter and shooter, and knew when the gun went dry)
http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/25/school.shooting.pm/
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/13/national/main2466711.shtml
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html
http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=c9e77ca8-29be-43ba-aa93-8066ddb699fb
Titan6
member
- Number of shooters stopped by another person with a gun = a couple
- Number of shooters stopped by being tackled by unarmed people = a few
- Number of shooters stopped by running out of ammo/ suicide = most of them
- Number of shooters stopped by hiding under desks = 0
- Number of shooters stopped by police = 0
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result
- Number of shooters stopped by being tackled by unarmed people = a few
- Number of shooters stopped by running out of ammo/ suicide = most of them
- Number of shooters stopped by hiding under desks = 0
- Number of shooters stopped by police = 0
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result
I met a guy running for the GA State Senate and he asked me what was on my mind. Well it just so happened that school security was something I had been pondering for the past couple of weeks. I told him quite bluntly and I wanted to be allowed to carry in my kids school whenever I come to visit. I told him our schools are extremely easy targets and we needed to take steps to create a deterent. Allowing parents to carry doesn't cost anything. I told him about Israeli schools too. I don't think he shared my views on the subject but he asked.
Few government employees want to implement anything no matter how effective that does not result in money being spent and employees being hired.
If inexpensive and effective things were used instead of expensive and ineffective things, 75% of government would disappear.
sm
member
1. Practice what was mentored to me - and what I share with others.
I have been on two campuses where a school shooting occurred, in the last 12 months.
Plus, bomb threats.
2. I have been reading the reports from school shootings, such as Virgina Tech.
I had some reading and links, that I have lost , still these are chocked full of all sorts of serious, information, applicable to other settings, besides a shooting at a school.
3. Everyone's situation is going to be different.
-Political Flavor in regards to not only guns, also edged weapons and even defending one's self.
-Legal interpretations of "threat" and "defense".
-Restrictions imposed
i.e.
Most schools do not allow those students from K-12 to even carry a small pocket knife to school.
Where some/most colleges will allow a student to carry a pocket knife to school. [with some restrictions on the knife that is allowed on campus].
The same mindset and approach to staying safe applies to these persons, as it does if one were in the Airport, and shots fired.
None of "us" are going to have a gun, or knife, so the lessons we learn in lessons, and from reading reports of actual events - prepares us better with more tools in the tool box.
-Most colleges do not allow firearms on campus, and the definition of "campus" varies from location, to location, and the restrictions vary as well.
Concealed carry is allowed on some campuses, still, most do not.
i.e.
I can follow the legal law, and CCW , and leave in my vehicle my CCW , when I have to be in a Courthouse.
I have to leave pocket knives, nail clippers, nail files...etc., as well.
I cannot, if I choose to enter a Military base, have a firearm in my vehicle.
When I have had to be on a base, I often park my vehicle in the garage of a person, and we take the "sterile" vehicle they use, everyday, to go on base.
No gun stuff at all, not even spent brass in, on, or around that vehicle.
The bases I am familiar with, really go over a vehicle with a fine tooth comb, and the trained dawgs are sniffing and checking out the vehicle as well.
Again, the lessons learned, and the studies of what really happened, what went wrong, what went correct, who died, who survived, , are extremely important.
At least to me they are, and not just in regard to a shooting at school.
Restrictions are a fact of life, not only for a First Grader, also for the CCW with hundreds of hours of training.
Steve
I have been on two campuses where a school shooting occurred, in the last 12 months.
Plus, bomb threats.
2. I have been reading the reports from school shootings, such as Virgina Tech.
I had some reading and links, that I have lost , still these are chocked full of all sorts of serious, information, applicable to other settings, besides a shooting at a school.
3. Everyone's situation is going to be different.
-Political Flavor in regards to not only guns, also edged weapons and even defending one's self.
-Legal interpretations of "threat" and "defense".
-Restrictions imposed
i.e.
Most schools do not allow those students from K-12 to even carry a small pocket knife to school.
Where some/most colleges will allow a student to carry a pocket knife to school. [with some restrictions on the knife that is allowed on campus].
The same mindset and approach to staying safe applies to these persons, as it does if one were in the Airport, and shots fired.
None of "us" are going to have a gun, or knife, so the lessons we learn in lessons, and from reading reports of actual events - prepares us better with more tools in the tool box.
-Most colleges do not allow firearms on campus, and the definition of "campus" varies from location, to location, and the restrictions vary as well.
Concealed carry is allowed on some campuses, still, most do not.
i.e.
I can follow the legal law, and CCW , and leave in my vehicle my CCW , when I have to be in a Courthouse.
I have to leave pocket knives, nail clippers, nail files...etc., as well.
I cannot, if I choose to enter a Military base, have a firearm in my vehicle.
When I have had to be on a base, I often park my vehicle in the garage of a person, and we take the "sterile" vehicle they use, everyday, to go on base.
No gun stuff at all, not even spent brass in, on, or around that vehicle.
The bases I am familiar with, really go over a vehicle with a fine tooth comb, and the trained dawgs are sniffing and checking out the vehicle as well.
Again, the lessons learned, and the studies of what really happened, what went wrong, what went correct, who died, who survived, , are extremely important.
At least to me they are, and not just in regard to a shooting at school.
Restrictions are a fact of life, not only for a First Grader, also for the CCW with hundreds of hours of training.
Steve
rainbowbob
Member
I'm not confident that even a fusillade of heavy books would be much of a deterrent to a homicidal/suicidal maniac. It might slow him down for a moment - and then serve only to draw fire toward those throwing the books.
Arming teachers would only be truly effective if EVERY teacher was required to be armed and trained. That aint gonna happen. However, if at least one or two were - it would be better than nothing.
EVERY classroom should be equipped with a heavy door capable of being deadbolted securely.
EVERY classroom should have an alternative escape route (e.g., a window with a fire escape ladder if above the first floor). This should be mandatory anyway in case of fire.
The problem of the shooter going to the outside rendezvous is a concern. At least people would be able to scatter and run like hell if they were on the ground outside - rather than trapped in a "gun-free zone".
Arming teachers would only be truly effective if EVERY teacher was required to be armed and trained. That aint gonna happen. However, if at least one or two were - it would be better than nothing.
EVERY classroom should be equipped with a heavy door capable of being deadbolted securely.
EVERY classroom should have an alternative escape route (e.g., a window with a fire escape ladder if above the first floor). This should be mandatory anyway in case of fire.
The problem of the shooter going to the outside rendezvous is a concern. At least people would be able to scatter and run like hell if they were on the ground outside - rather than trapped in a "gun-free zone".
rainbowbob
Member
I beleive "gun-free zones" may actually be more at risk for mass shootings because the shooter knows - not only will there be a concentration of targets - but they will be defenseless.
Isn't that cause and effect?
As has been pointed out many times: Shooters don't choose gun ranges, police stations, or NRA meetings for their rampages.
another okie
Member
I think what he meant was that you were confusing cause and effect with correlation. As is often the case, he repeated a cliche without analyzing it and so produced a very confusing remark.
I don't agree with him, I just wanted to clarify what he may have been trying to say.
It is true that cause and effect are hard to prove with complex social issues like this, but there are very few mass shootings at police stations or gun club meetings, and all the recent ones seem to occur at schools and posted malls.
I don't agree with him, I just wanted to clarify what he may have been trying to say.
It is true that cause and effect are hard to prove with complex social issues like this, but there are very few mass shootings at police stations or gun club meetings, and all the recent ones seem to occur at schools and posted malls.
paintballdude902
Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2007
- Messages
- 2,872
i tend to take classes with sharp/dangerous objects (ie shop, graphic design drafting autoshop chemistry)
i like to have objects i can protect my self with
my graphics teacher used to say " yall get ur tails out that there window and im gonna be behind the door with my baseballbat beating him down" lol gotta love mr. campbell
i like to have objects i can protect my self with
my graphics teacher used to say " yall get ur tails out that there window and im gonna be behind the door with my baseballbat beating him down" lol gotta love mr. campbell
Charles Paul Lincoln
Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2008
- Messages
- 2
The liability of "licensing" teachers to carry at school would be a huge problem for schools, but it might be possible to create some sort of "special deputy" certification through the state police agency. Sort of like a reserve officer program. Teachers who choose to go through training voluntarily could be allowed to carry deeply concealed, and be authorized only to use deadly force if there was a shooter in the school. They would not have arrest authority.
I was a teacher, and a principal as well. I can tell you that the segment of the teaching population who would choose to undergo the extensive training required to fill this type of role would be small. But, the possibility that there might be even one or two armed and skilled teachers in a school is better than waiting for the cavalry.
There would be significant legislative barriers to such a program -- district liability, teacher liability for collateral injuries, duty to protect issues, etc. But, it is possible.
I might go back to working in schools if they came up with something like that.
I was a teacher, and a principal as well. I can tell you that the segment of the teaching population who would choose to undergo the extensive training required to fill this type of role would be small. But, the possibility that there might be even one or two armed and skilled teachers in a school is better than waiting for the cavalry.
There would be significant legislative barriers to such a program -- district liability, teacher liability for collateral injuries, duty to protect issues, etc. But, it is possible.
I might go back to working in schools if they came up with something like that.
rainbowbob
Member
Yes, I'm sure there many instances of suicide by cop (for example). But I still contend that the ones who are intent on taking as many innocent lives with them as possible are more likely to choose a "gun-free zone".
Generally people commit crimes places where they are fimlar, schools, shoping malls, the work place. I don't think the gun free part plays as big of a roll as many people beleave. Infact I can't think of one in recent history that does not fallow that pattern.
Patrick_Henry
Member
Perhaps the best we can do is not seek to change policy at all, at least not yet or entirely. Much of the real problem with these types of shootings, at least as I see them, is that our culture is had been almost fully wired to react passively. It doesn't matter what the reaction is to, whether a new thought or idea or a rampaging killer, we are told to think and act passively. I believe the truth is there are ways, perhaps not for the first class room, but for the others, to respond quickly and efficiently to at least deter an incoming attacker successfully, and while guns and knives have been banned, many other very useful objects have not been banned. Throw text books? Why, if I'm gonna throw something I'm chucking master locks or rolls of quarters that'll actually up my odds of putting a serious hurt on somebody. As for being packed in, well yes that is a problem, but well educated students should begin to visualize the best places to defend themselves from at all times, I think here on THR we call that situational awareness. Rather than assuming we have dumb kids who need full protection why not pass of situational awareness and creative defense to them, and just see what changing how they think begins to do to policy?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Of course not. Places of unarmed people do not cause the people to be attacked by a person with a gun any more than being old or being a woman causes people to be attacked. It is no more than cause and effect than gun ranges cause suicide...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=gun+range+suicide&btnG=Search
It could also be argued by your cause and effect logic that guns are bad because they kill people. It is very poor logic and obviously is not cause and effect. So just because an event happens at a type of location or with a particular tool does not mean there is a cause and effect.
Really?
Police station attacks/shootings examples...
http://www.nbc4.com/news/9178513/detail.html
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_042908_news_west_linn_police_shooting.b185dd6a.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050800968.html
http://ww.uniontrib.com/uniontrib/20071220/news_1m20station.html
http://www.theoutlookonline.com/news/story.php?story_id=120951510405837500
http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI88152/
http://www.topix.com/world/guyana/2...://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/12839092.html
Given that these attacks DO occur at places like police stations where the attacker knows there are armed and trained gunmen (the police), then we can assume that having armed and trained people at schools won't necessarily preclude school shootings. They will still occur. They may not get as far, they are still going to happen.
Gun Range murder...
http://www.dailymail.com/News/200806200077
As noted above, it is difficult to stop a determined gunman from beginning a spree shooting, especially one for whom suicide or death isn't considered a negative result.
Last edited:
another okie
Member
I used the word "rampages." I am aware that people occasionally go into a police station to shoot one particular person, or to commit suicide by cop. I don't consider those rampages. I guess that word is not as clear as I meant. Sorry.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
For your review and comment FWIW- (just ran across this item, I have no interest in the company/product/etc).
lpl/nc
====
http://www. shotsfireddvd.com/preview
username: corporate
password: shotsfired
Unfortunately, this contemporary, violent event is occurring in our workplaces and schools with catastrophic results. The Center for Personal Protection and Safety is proud to announce the release of an instructional DVD and training program designed to empower people with knowledge and strategies for preventing and surviving an active shooter situation.
“Shots Fired – When Lightning Strikes” provides the individual employee, staff member and/or associate with critical guidance on how to recognize and survive an active shooter situation.
lpl/nc
====
http://www. shotsfireddvd.com/preview
username: corporate
password: shotsfired
Unfortunately, this contemporary, violent event is occurring in our workplaces and schools with catastrophic results. The Center for Personal Protection and Safety is proud to announce the release of an instructional DVD and training program designed to empower people with knowledge and strategies for preventing and surviving an active shooter situation.
“Shots Fired – When Lightning Strikes” provides the individual employee, staff member and/or associate with critical guidance on how to recognize and survive an active shooter situation.
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