Shots fired: Need non biased hd advice

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Must agree with many of the responses about the shotgun as a primary weapon. In addition, a fixed stock will be better for weapon retention should the BG get his hands on it while you're holding it. Incidentally, shooting with a pistol grip SG is not very accurate either.

IMHO a pistol is what I use to fight my way to the shotgun if necessary. Then hand off the pistol to your trained wife to cover you while she calls 911.

+1 to barracading while calling 911 too. Unless you have a need to go get children from across the house, you're better off staying put behind cover. If your state doesn't have good Castle Doctrine laws you may be best doing that and also announcing (while on the phone with 911 if possible) that you have a gun and for the BG to not enter or you will shoot. Then just hunker down and try to breathe.

Just my .02
 
I would like a 590 as opposed to just a 500 is that I have an m9 bayonet that I could affix to it

No

You're talking about a real home defense situation so dump the exotic stuff. You'd be fine with a simple side by side shotgun so there's no need for folding stocks and bayonets. Leave the fantasy stuff for video games.
 
The most important priority is having a plan, and practicing that plan until it is second nature. Tactics. Before the stuff goes down.

In a SHTF situation you will always default to your training. IOW, your mind is the first and most important weapon.

As far as tool, I would choose the shotgun with 00 Buck. What will penetrate the BG WILL also penetrate the walls. Bird shot is for birds. You don't want to hit an innocent obviously. Again, this goes back to tactics. I would suggest that you plan a place to go and hunker down, literally. That way your shot trajectory if you have to shoot, will be upward, which will make any errant shot more likely to go over a neighbor or innocent in another room.

You can cover the door with the shotgun, while your wife is armed with the HP and dialing 911. (Dialing only if there is no present threat.)

I have a fairly large and widely varied collection, including HPs to HKs; AKs to XCRs. In my experience the HPs are reliable, and ugly. But again, weapon selection is secondary to tactics! Planning and training! Practice, drill & rehearse, OFTEN!

My two cents. As always YMMV. :cool:
 
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned it, but a 20 guage shotgun is no slouch and may be more manageable for your wife than a 12 guage. Hit up the gun shops and pawn shops for a used but solid pump shotgun. You may be surprised at how affordable they are if you aren't stuck on finding one specific brand and model.

I'll give a +1 to the advice about skipping the cheesy accessories for either shotgun or handgun. Spend the money saved on ammo for training.
--Stork
 
Get a Mossberg 50577 and a S&W 642 or 442. These are a great start and guns you'll never regret owning. After that, you'll be better able to make your own informed decisions on what to get next. ;)

Les
 
some more information:
I live in Texas and we do indeed have the castle law so I have no trouble pulling the trigger if someone has endangered my wife and I.

I already have the bayonet so why not have it affixed? What if I am not home and my wife is too startled to pull the trigger or the gun isnt racked or it's safetied, or the firing pin breaks? or a number of other things that could go wrong in the heat of the moment?

or am I being too paranoid?

You all have been a wonderful help so far I cannot thank you enough!
 
I already have the bayonet so why not have it affixed?

You're going to defend your home, from the inside, with a spear. I don't even know where to being on the absurdity of it.

What if I am not home and my wife is too startled to pull the trigger or the gun isnt racked or it's safetied, or the firing pin breaks? or a number of other things that could go wrong in the heat of the moment?

I'll play along for a minute and assume you're proficient with firearms and everything is as claimed so far (as much as I am now doubting it).

How often do firing pins break when you're out 'regularly' target shooting and doing IDPA with your friends' guns? How often do pump shotguns fail?

If she's 'too startled' to pull the trigger, do you honestly expect anyone here or elsewhere to believe that she's suddenly going to start bayonetting her way out of a horrible situation...in your home?

If a round isn't chambered, you both haven't had training or practice or much forethought.

If the safety is on, same.

The rest in the heat of the moment, ditto.

Assuming this isn't a giant troll, I must implore you to get training and practice before laying hands on any firearm. The 'experience' you have thusfar is not sufficient.
 
If you aren't a troll and just want help.....

Then asking these questions should at least show you a starting point, as more than a few members have pointed out.

You don't go and buy a motorcycle and expect to be a super-bike racer, and ask our police members, I'm sure they can elaborate.

Buying a gun is much the same, just because you have a gun doesn't make you Rambo or Johnny Law. It is a tool, one that you must learn and practice with TO BECOME PROFICIENT

Not an expert or even a mall ninja, but just a guy who understands how his gun works and knows what to do when it doesn't work.

You need to take about 5 steps back and go talk to someone who actually knows guns, maybe about 60 years old, and doesn't talk a lot, expect to be called a fool, many times, and take the time to learn.

If you walk into a gun store today, you will walk out many dollars less with the "latest and greatest" you are most gun clerks wet dream, signing up for a class is much better than buying a gun, because you are in a knee jerk reaction, really it's nice to know that you have no compunction about blowing away your neighbor, here's some cold water

It will cost you between $20,000 and $50,000 to defend yourself because in TEXAS ALL CASTLE DOCTRINE CASES GO IN FRONT OF A GRAND JURY, that is money, time and a lot of your reputation, not to mention the pissed of friends and family that are after you.
 
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ok, I took the advice of getting behind cover and positioned our bed so that we could roll off it and have a mattress, large dresser, and a few walls between us and the door. When I was talking about affixing the bayonet it was only as a last resort just in case everything went to hell, I realize that it is highly unlikely that any of the above would happen but I also value the lives of my family to the point where I would be willing to use any lawful yet extraordinary force necessary to defend them.

In the case of the castle doctrine [Below] I have immunity from injury and death resulting from somebody unlawfully entering my home, no grand jury needed unless the situation was questionable [If I shot them in the back or shot them excessively]




relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

SECTION 1. Section 9.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding Subdivisions (4) and (5) to read as follows:

(4) “Habitation” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.01.

(5) “Vehicle” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.01.

SECTION 2. Section 9.31, Penal Code, is amended by amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (e) and (f) to read as follows:

(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor’s belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.

(f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

SECTION 3. Section 9.32, Penal Code, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor [he] would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

(2) [if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and

[(3)] when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(b) The actor’s belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used [requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor].

(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

SECTION 4. Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY [AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE]. A [It is an affirmative defense to a civil action for damages for personal injury or death that the] defendant who uses force or[, at the time the cause of action arose, was justified in using] deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 [Section 9.32], Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s [against a person who at the time of the] use of force or deadly force, as applicable [was committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the defendant].

SECTION 5. (a) Sections 9.31 and 9.32, Penal Code, as amended by this Act, apply only to an offense committed on or after the effective date of this Act. An offense committed before the effective date of this Act is covered by the law in effect when the offense was committed, and the former law is continued in effect for this purpose. For the purposes of this subsection, an offense is committed before the effective date of this Act if any element of the offense occurs before the effective date.

(b) Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as amended by this Act, applies only to a cause of action that accrues on or after the effective date of this Act. An action that accrued before the effective date of this Act is governed by the law in effect at the time the action accrued, and that law is continued in effect for that purpose.

SECTION 6. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.
 
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned it, but a 20 guage shotgun is no slouch and may be more manageable for your wife than a 12 guage.


I was thinking the same thing. A 20 would be perfectly fine for HD. In fact, that's what's leaning up in the corner on my side of the bed right now. I do plan on getting a short barelled pump 12 eventually for HD, but it's not a main issue for me right now. Between the 20 and the .40 on the nightstand, I feel pretty prepared. I do spend a lot of time practicing with the .40. Probably need to do more with the shotty.
 
I have immunity from injury and death resulting from somebody unlawfully entering my home, no grand jury needed unless the situation was questionable
If you kill someone there is no law that would prevent you from going before a grand jury if that's what the DA and/or the police want to see happen.

Civil immunity is completely separate from criminal culpability. That just says that if you are justified in using self-defense under the law you can't be sued in civil court for damages. It has absolutely nothing to do with protecting you from having to go in front of a grand jury.
 
go with the mossberg and later get yourself a good handgun or two. forget about the 590 and save yourself a bit and get a 500, the folding stock wont be that much of a benefit at all.

as far as an hd situation goes i would take your significant other and fall back to your safe room and sit tight as you call for help. if someone is in your home going through trying to clear your house is not the most prudent tactic. don't leave the room and dont hang up with 911 untill they've verified that the officers are at your bedroom door.
 
I was thinking the same thing. A 20 would be perfectly fine for HD.

This is good advice, especially, in my experience, when a woman is expected to acclimate to it. My 50 year old wife of 25 years didn't start out educated or "anti" when it came to firearms. The first gun I bought after we were married was a Mossberg 500 20ga, 18.5" bbl, wood and blue. I started her out shooting it at one gallon paint cans (with #4 hi-brass bird), and she took to it quickly, and became a great hip-shooter with it in short order. Success breeds enthusiasm. She still considers it "her HD shotgun", though these days, it's loaded with Federal 3 Buck, and she'd probably pick up her 9mm first in most "threat" scenarios... She's come a long way.

Les
 
folding stocks aren't needed and that the smart person rounds the family up and forts up instead of searching the house when trouble comes.

+1. I have a lot of guns, and the last one to go would be the 12 gauge pump next to the bed. A defensive plan is your first step. My family knows what to do if the alarm sounds. Searching out the threat is not part of it. I will be clinging to that pump, loaded w/ Federal Premium Contolled Flight 9 pellet 00, wife on the horn with 911, tac light switch at the ready to confirm any threat. It has a good old fashioned wood stock.

The 9mm you are pondering notoriously OP's compared to the 00, and is not nearly as effective. Welcome to THR--You will learn a lot here.
 
The bayonet is just kinda silly. It makes the weapon less manageable and adds a entire different amount of circumstances you then need to train for, or could end up really hurting yourself.

Don't use a laser of any type to supplement proper training, regardless of their quality.

Don't get a high point.

If cost is really a concern, then don't think about gimmicks, just get the bare bone necessities.
 
ok, so scrap the 590 idea, what shotgun would you recommend on the cheap? Has anybody had any experience with gauge reducers? This way we could have either 12 or 20 gauge loaded depending on who is shooting...do they work?
 
Either a Mossberg 500 or a Rem 870.

You can sometimes find used police-trade-in 870 in carried-a-lot-shot-a-little condition for like $150. And they'll even have already been cycled enough to smooth them out.

Gauge reducers work fine, in single-shot or double-barrel shotguns. Never heard of one that would work (repeatedly) in a pump or autoloader. Wouldn't feed another round and the magazines wouldn't keep in the smaller gauge shells.
 
Surprised nobody's mentioned High Point carbines, so I will! I have no experience with H-P pistols, but I have both 9mm and .40S&W H-P carbines, and I'd have NO qualms about using either of them for H/D, but I'd lean towards the .40 first. It's deadly accurate, light and easy handling, very reliable, and the 16" barrel gives standard .40 ammo quite a bit more oomph. It's quite a little thumper.

I don't know if there's a new tactical stock on the current .40 carbines, but the new 9mm's have tact. stocks with rails on them for lights/lasers/optics.
 
I would go with a shotgun with a tatical light so identifying your target is not a issue. you can choose which shotgun and the double OObuck would have less penetration then a full metal jacket 9mm so if you decide to go with the c9 make sure you use home defense rounds so the neighbor ladys don't get a rude wakening. and i always suggest to fing a training course if possibly in budgetthere is one thing to remember also a Mossberg 500 will do the same job for less money so don't be affraid to look around at different shops and ask about a pistol grip as a choice other than a folding stock
 
Most any firearm will do in a defensive role, IF THE SHOOTER WILL DO. It matters less what hardware is available- the toolset is no substitute for the shooter's mindset and skillset.

For your SO, see http://www.corneredcat.com/ and show the site to her. If she wants to learn to use a firearm, let her choose it.

The last 590 (#50299 20" 9-shot MarineCote) I bought was around $250 used, just a couple of months ago. Yes, it was an ugly gun- someone had rattlecanned it in a bilious shade of green. The paint came off pretty easily though. IMHO if you are going to get a Mossberg for serious use, it should be a 590, due to the pull-through cleanout magazine tube- but forget the pigsticker. Learn to run the gun and you won't NEED a bayonet.

Take a look at http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx and read the class description for Personal Protection In The Home. Then take a look at the 'Find A Course' list and see if it's offered near you. If it is, see if you can get there. If not, see http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=ES 26840 for the classroom segment of the class on DVD.

fwiw,

lpl
 
...at this point I realized I had nothing to defend myself with...I am debating between two options.

My first option is a Mossberg 590 12g with an 18.5" barrel and a side folding stock for extra maneuverability.

The second would be to get two Hi Point C9's with hollow points.
Forget about the shotgun and get the pistols.

Here's why...

I have great respect for a shotgun, but a pistol is something that you can have on you all the time and everywhere you go.

Say you're watching TV late one night, the shotgun is close by, the wife and kids are sleeping...
Okay, commercial break, and nature calls....so what do you do?
Well, you get up and go to the bathroom just like anyone would.
I'm betting that you don't take the shotgun with you.

Now you're done and just as you're washing your hands, you hear the sound of breaking glass....

You would probably be wishing that you had a pistol on your side right about then.


Let's say you're in your home checking out The High Road on your computer, and it's about 9:00pm, when suddenly you remember that you didn't turn off the sprinkler (you were watering the garden or lawn, whatever)....
Of course you're just going to run out and turn the water off, and it will only take a minute or two, so you don't take the shotgun with you....
Just as you turning the water off you catch some movement out of the corner of your eye....
You turn and see two guys standing in your backyard watching you intently.

You would probably be wishing that you had a pistol on your side right about then.

I think you get the point....
You can never tell when you might need a weapon, and a pistol is something that you can have on your side nearly all the time and nearly everywhere you go.
A rifle or shotgun is just not something that you're likely to have with you when you really need it.


Good luck,
Easy
 
we can't move, we signed a 1 lease that isn't up till next may. And we can't back out of it because this is only the second of many houses we are going to rent.
 
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