should I go class 3?

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I'd not mess with NFA items unless you're making $100k a year and not spending it :)

I'd certinly buy a house first.

But good god are they fun, and I'd pay quite a lot to own one here in CA. (nearly impossible, though there is paperwork for the DOJ to issue MG permits in theroey. I need to marry a Senator first.) I want an M249 SAW.
 
thanks alot for all the good info

you guys are the best! given me lots to think about, I'll let you know how I decide.
I can't wait for the $$ to arrive, I had knee surgery a year ago and the $$ is a payout because the injury happened at work.
I had been thinking house but sometimes it seems like they're more of a money pit then guns and 10 grand doesn't seem like enough to put down as a down payment for something nice.
 
One accurate shot is better than 30 unaccurate shots...
I'd be looking at NYSE and NASDAQ for a few years
It sounds like you are getting a lot of advice from the gunstore commandos that never bothered to get their own toys, so they think it must not be worth it for you either.
You may be able to get the $$$ back you invest in the firearm, but you'll never get the $$$ back you spend on ammo.
Why is that any different for MGs vs. any other gun? If buying ammo is such a waste, this guy should change hobbies. Maybe bottle cap collecting?
Full autos turn money into noise in a HURRY. I have several friends that have them. These guys have rather high disposal income and still they run out of money
I bought my first MG while I was a poor college student. I am by no means wealthy, but owning MGs has not caused my family to ever go hungry.

As for Gunsmith, I say go for it! If you live in Reno, I'm sure there are some ranges that rent MGs. I would suggest you try a few out and see what you like. You didn't say that you wanted to "invest" in MGs, so the "buy stock instead" tip doesn't really apply. My MGs are not an investment, as I never plan to sell them.

The best advice I could give is if you want one, get one now. Prices continue to climb. You could buy one gun for $8-10K, or you could buy two for $3-5K. While some here have stated that they don't like the MAC, I rather enjoy mine. That's a matter of personal preference.

BTW: someone is trying to rape you if they want $5000 for a MAC10. Look around at Subguns.com classifieds and Sturmgewehr.com for a better idea of what asking prices are. If you want opinions on owning MGs, you might check out on the discussion boards there. You run into fewer Elmer Fudds.
 
So we have been reduced to name calling now ?
If we don't share your opinion, we must be inferior ?

As I stated, I own a SMG. I own SBRs, I own a SBS, I own a half dozen suppressors.
BUT, I own a house. That is FAR more important than blowing a windfall on a toy. If you have all your ducks in a row, then buying toys is fine. The guy that posted the original question didn't say, I am buying a machine gun and I want your approval. He asked for advice: I am giving it to him.
 
"The happiest day of a Class III owner's life is the day he buys his first Mac. The second happiest day of his life is the day he sells his first Mac."


Kinda like buying a boat ;)
 
BUT, I own a house. That is FAR more important than blowing a windfall on a toy.

For you, perhaps. For me, it's not. My mgs are worth about twice as much as the house that I rent. Now, is your statement true for Gunsmith? Only he can know that, but you shouldn't presume that your way is the only "right" way.

"The happiest day of a Class III owner's life is the day he buys his first Mac. The second happiest day of his life is the day he sells his first Mac." Kinda like buying a boat.

Really? I didn't realize that used boats appreciated that much. :evil:

Honestly, I like Macs. Their quality certainly might leave something to be desired, but for pure fun......

ETA you shouldn't get the wrong idea.....my house is old and crappy, not a new, expensive house
 
"My mgs are worth about twice as much as the house that I rent. "
That is kind of academic since you don't own the house. What it is worth is someone else's money.

If I am not mistaken, he lives in the Reno Nevada area. I also live in Nevada. We have been one of the fastest growing states for many years now. Real Estate prices are going through the roof. In this state, putting that money down on a house will mutiply his money FAR faster than buying a machine gun. And, the amounts of money we are talking about is significantly more than we are talking about with machine guns. It would be perfectly reasonable to put down that money on a house, live in the house for 2-3 years (you got to live somewhere anyway) and make a hundred grand or more. Heck, if nothing else, buy a house, live in it for a year or two, take out a home equity loan: buy machine guns and write off the interest on the loan on your taxes.
 
That is kind of academic since you don't own the house. What it is worth is someone else's money.

:D It's not academic at all. I don't own a house BECAUSE I wanted to own mgs instead. If I wanted to own the house, I would. To me, though, it wasn't even a decision. My point is, if owning a house has been your goal your entire life, go for it. On the other hand, don't get discouraged by these naysayers. Remember, houses can be money holes, too. This may be your only chance, get whatever means the most to you.
 
Two years ago I saw a Class 3 MAC10 with huge Sound Suppressor for just a little over $1,000.00 at the Gun Show.

Machine Gun Kellys in Las Vegas was selling it.
 
Let's get to the bottom line. For all intents and purposes, a (civilian) machinegun is a toy. No different than buying a Harley, golf clubs, rebuilt hot rod, ski boat or the latest, top-of-the-line, speed-demon gaming computer.

Given that it is a very expensive toy, both in the initial cost and the ongoing cost of feeding it, you must now set your priorities. It's as simple as that. How bad do you want it?

One thing to keep in mind is that the only thing rising faster than machinegun prices is the cost of gasoline. A $10,000-$15,000 machinegun is going to be over $20,000 within 5 years. If you put off the purchase to buy a house, new car or other mundane items now, will you be able to come up with the $20k in 5 years? There will always be something you need, causing you to question and postpone a machinegun purchase.

If you want it and have the cash in hand, buy it.
 
As long as one is giving the feds the pleasure of tracking you :fire: , registering you :mad: , and taxing you :cuss: for the privilege of the first two, the government hater in me says to get several SBRs for the cost of one MG. I enjoy clogging the government with it's own stupid paperwork.

An SBR is title II just like an MG if I'm not mistaken (the whole class III terminology is misused) only an SBR is actually affordable. PLUS, getting an SBR supports makers of something NEW that will probably meet the same fate that MGs did. Passing around the same machine guns back and forth does NOTHING whatsoever to save the 2nd amendment for oneself OR others. We have to accept that we were ambushed in 1986 and we've (hopefully only temporarily) lost. Buying MGs is supporting a dead industry (at an inflated and insulting rate) as far as regular citizens are concerned.

(The previous advice to buy investment property in Nevada is excellent).
 
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PLUS, getting an SBR supports makers of something NEW... Passing around the same machine guns back and forth does NOTHING whatsoever to save the 2nd amendment for oneself OR others.
Just because you buy a new gun, doesn't automatically mean that the gun company supports the 2nd Amendment. For example, I have read some things that indicate that Colt would just as soon sell only to LE/Mil.

OTOH, if you are dead set on buying something "new", you can always buy accessories for your "old" machinegun. After all, how is buying a new upper for your M16 from DPMS any different than buying a semi-auto lower from them? You're still buying new product from a gun manufacturer.
 
Just because you buy a new gun, doesn't automatically mean that the gun company supports the 2nd Amendment. For example, I have read some things that indicate that Colt would just as soon sell only to LE/Mil.

That is diverting from my point. Last time I checked, Colt doesn't make any SBRs for civillians. We're all familiar with backstabbers like Colt/Ruger etc. My point was/is that we need to keep the market strong for NEW title II guns. My point was/is that as long as we're allowing a boot on our necks, make it productive instead of JUST expensive.

...you can always buy accessories for your "old" machinegun.
Yea, and ya know what? It's meaningless for what I'm specifically talking about.

After all, how is buying a new upper for your M16 from DPMS any different than buying a semi-auto lower from them? You're still buying new product from a gun manufacturer.
It's completely different because you obviously do not get what I'm saying. **sigh** I can mail order a new upper for an M16 and have it sent to my front door. The semi auto lower can be bought from Bubbas Guns 'N Pawn down the street. What I am talking about here is an entirely different legal class of firearms as far as our federal occupiers are concerned. The NFA of 1934 shredded the 2nd amendment, but they had to make it LOOK constitutional by pretending to allow citizens an avenue of purchase for NFA weapons. What I am advocating, is that as long as the NFA SBR avenue is open, USE IT, instead of passing a finite abount of machine guns back and forth at super inflated prices.
 
IMO class III is fun. BUT you can find people who own them and if you supply ammo many would be happy to join you at range.
I feel you really need more then $15k to go this way. Unless you figure you know where prices will go.
I would LOVE a MP-5 SD. Every time I shoot one I want it. Thing is I likely wouldn't shoot it much more then I get to anyway. (hundred rds a year)
A AR woud be my choice or a AK if that is your choice. Then a M-14 M1A lots of ammo but first a home.
 
I'm voting with the ninnies who say invest. Take the 10k invest it. Go to the Mustang Range everytime you get the urge to let some rip.

Don't invest in items whose value is dependent on stupid government regulations... such as machine guns. Buy them because they are fun, cool, exciting, but don't "Invest" in them. Just like the 300 dollar 34 round 170 mm 38 Super magazines that became 40 dollars overnight when the AWB lapsed, the value of MG's depends the status of NFA and the FOPA.

The odds MG values collapse due to an increase in supply is very doubtful, more likely is a ban on transfer, meaning the "investment" has been downgraded to "expensive toy".

Food for though.

atek3
 
If you have the money, and more importantly are single (so there's no Mrs complaining about you buying expensive toys) then yeah ... go for it ... post lots of pics and reports here so us poor/married guys can get the vicarious thrills.


If it was me, I'd be buying suppressors and SBRs before full auto (full auto is fun, but quiet appeals to me a little more).

I think a Carbon 15 pistol registered as an SBR with a stock and a can would be fun.
 
more likely is a ban on transfer,

Agreed, and to me this is the most significant reason to get the machinegun. I work on the theory that they're less likely to make it illegal for me to buy a house or invest in the stock market in the immediate future, anyways. :rolleyes:
 
I don't really see mine as investments but more as toys that I can play with and have fun. When the time comes to sell it, it will still be worth what I paid and then some.

It's like paying a deposit and renting a MG. When you get rid of it you get the deposit back and maybe more. :p

Just admit it, when was the last time you invested in mutual funds or stocks and had a giant grin from ear to ear?
 
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Got to admit the more I think of it the more a class III sounds like good idea. Those that have Class III please add to list of (bothers) I (think) I know about.
First I (think) you have to get fingerprinted/pay for background check
Second I (think) you have to pay $200 transfer fee for EVERY gun
Third I think you have to show safe storage and allow inspections so often?
Forth I think you need a letter of permission from local LEO?
Are there more? Or are any of these wrong? Thanks.
 
I say go for it(on a Budget!)

Step 1. get check and buy 2 quality Semi Auto Ar-15 clones(whatever config but get a Bushmaster, step 3 tells why). Break-in and familiarize yourself with the rifle if you aren't.

Step 2. SBR both lowers but only if you plan on buying multiple uppers(honostly you could just keep the one lower if you really want, but if I jumped(NFA), I would make it a DIVE)

Step 3. Find a Class 3 Dealer with a Pre-1986 REGISTERED DIAS(drop in auto sear) for sell and buty it(He will tell you what you need besides the dough). Last I saw on the 'net, they were still around 5-7k depending on quality .You want Bushmaster lowers because I know they are close to mill spec and I have heard some manufacturers won't fit a DIAS, without more milling.

Step 4. WAIT :( and WAIT :( and WAIT some more :( ...

Step 5. I would fill out paperwork for a suppressor and have the paperwork spread out to where you have a month or so in between the arrival of the DIAS and the Suppressor tax stamps. You can play with the MG when it gets there and have the suppressor coming :p ...

Step 6. Thank Too Many Choices!? for his great advice by inviting him out to a shoot some time...Too Many Choices!?(and pissed that MG ain't one of'em :banghead: I need a better job or a free Country:( )

PS. The Registered DIAS would be the MG in my example, which is why I say get two lowers and SBR both. That way if you want short uppers you can have them on either lower, and you can move the MG(the DIAS between the two rifles without much work). You will have unlimited configuration options and calibers upto 7.62x39....

PSS. The Registered DIAS needs M16 parts for full-auto and needs to be installed(Timed I think it is called:confused: ?) correctly or bad things can happen, so pay an expert. Have fun and do it big if you do it at all...
 
First I (think) you have to get fingerprinted/pay for background check Yes, in most cases
Second I (think) you have to pay $200 transfer fee for EVERY gun Yes, in most cases
Third I think you have to show safe storage and allow inspections so often? No, and no. There are no "safe storage" requirements under Fed. law. State law may vary. ATF has the right to "inspect" your paperwork. Not anything else. You don't give up your 4th ammendment rights.
Forth I think you need a letter of permission from local LEO? It's not a seperate letter. It is part of the transfer paperwork that the CLEO signs.
Are there more? Or are any of these wrong? Thanks.
 
MPA.com says:
What I am advocating, is that as long as the NFA SBR avenue is open, USE IT, instead of passing a finite abount of machine guns back and forth at super inflated prices.
Who is saying not to buy/build SBRs? I have some of them too. They're fun as well, but they don't do what my MGs do. I don't see any other viable option at the present time for owning MGs, other than to buy the "super inflated" transferables.

FWIW, I don't see myself buying any more MGs. I have what I can afford, and the prices have gone beyond what I am now willing to pay.

What this means is that if Gunsmith wants to buy a MG, he should do it now, as later it will cost even more. Next year, an SBR will likely cost the same as it does today. The same is likely not true for MGs.
 
First I (think) you have to get fingerprinted/pay for background check Yes, in most cases
Second I (think) you have to pay $200 transfer fee for EVERY gun Yes, in most cases
Third I think you have to show safe storage and allow inspections so often? No, and no. There are no "safe storage" requirements under Fed. law. State law may vary. ATF has the right to "inspect" your paperwork. Not anything else. You don't give up your 4th ammendment rights.
Forth I think you need a letter of permission from local LEO? It's not a seperate letter. It is part of the transfer paperwork that the CLEO signs.
Are there more? Or are any of these wrong? Thanks.



Yes, you have to get fingerprinted.

You have to pay 200 for MG's, DD's, Sawed off shotguns, some SBS. AOW's like the Serbu Super Shorty are $5. I'm not aware that you have to demonstrate any specific kind of storage unless your CLEO requires it.

Correct, you are supposed to maintain a copy of the tax stamp with you and be able to produce the original.

You need to obtain a "CLEO" signoff or form a corporation to bypass the cleo signoff. The chief law enforcement officer is basically fulfilling the role of saying you're a decent guy not likely to misbehave. I am given to understand that corporate transfers are faster, but you have to be organized into a corporation, LLC or incorporation(?)... It's a good alternative for those in jurisdictions where none of the eligible CLEO's will signoff.

So the order goes.
ID item to purchase. IF out of state, procure services of class 3 dealer to get it transferred to their stock, THEN begin Form 4 transfer.

else,

Purchase item from c3 dealer. Fill out form 4.
Take fingerprint cards to get printed.
Take print cards, and Form 4's to CLEO for the signoff.
Stroke tax stamp check ($200/$5 as appropriate).
Once CLEO signoff obtained, bundle up package and sent to ATF.
Upon receipt, ATF processes it and sends the forms from their remote office, to another remote office of "examiners" in West-by-Gawd-Virginia. Once the Examiners get it, the check is cashed and your form 4 goes into "Pending" status. This is when the clock starts. There is no rhyme or reason to how long it will take. Examiners are assigned by the last name, or business name of the transferor (seller). Some are good, some suck. It was far, far worse when the examiners were in DC. If there is anything wrong with the forms, they kick it back to the seller, and you either correct / resubmit or cancel.
Once the Examiner determines all your papers are in order, they approve the transfer. They then send the form 4 to the seller via last class mail.

NOW, you may take home your class 3 item.
whether or not you should go class 3 is a decision only you can make. One way you might be able to compromise is bank all or part of the money and get a secured loan on it... Just a thought.

If it were me, and MG's were an interest, I'd do it, now. In just the last year Mac10's have gone up about $700. Things are starting to reach well into the teens now - as in umpteen thousand dollars...If you're a shooter, the time is now, before all the "safe queen collectors" own everything.
 
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