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Should I have paid?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Redlg155, Oct 8, 2011.

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  1. WaltonS

    WaltonS Member

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    All right. Here's my take on why the OP is in the right. Feel free to argue with my logic on this one.

    1) OP went through proper channels (4473, etc) to rifle transferred back into HIS possession prior to the sale, or any deal being struck outside the shop.
    2) The dealer's commission isn't to stick a tag on the gun and make room for it in the shop; it's to make a sale. If he can't or won't close the deal, he doesn't get commission.
    3) While on the premises of the gun shop, the transaction did not take place in the shop, nor did it happen while the gun was still on display in the shop.

    Those facts alone lead me to believe that the dealer didn't have a hand in anything except making the eventual buyer aware the gun was available. If that deserves commission, my butt's going into Walmart to get my cut for letting people know when something's on sale. Come to think of it, I'm going to every place I've recommended or referred someone to for my share of the profits. Who's with me?

    Snarkiness aside, from a more speculative standpoint, the dealer was caught red-handed before trying to rip the OP off, by making a trade on a consignment gun, then selling the trade-in for additional profit. Were I in the dealer's shoes, I'd notify the owner of the consignment gun of the offer, then offer to A) facilitate the trade for a modest fee or B) buy the consignment gun off the guy, trade it, and resell the trade-in at a fair price for the dealer and the owner of the consignment gun. The second option is certainly the less viable, but if the seller can agree to a reasonable amount, and all parties agreed, then go with it.
     
  2. Lost Sheep

    Lost Sheep Member

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    And the show coordinator is charging me an admission fee for his efforts. I thought it was understood that gun shows and such gatherings are partly for the purpose of facilitating such meetings.

    Now, if I just hung out in the parking lot, then I would be taking uncompensated advantage of the show.

    Excuse me. There is a gun show today and I don't want to miss it.

    Lost Sheep
     
  3. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

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    Actually, we're splitting hairs in what's "in the shop"... if the sale occurred on the owner's premises. Like I said in my last post after the OP gave a little more info, I don't think he owes the guy a dime.

    However, it would have been much better to have conducted his business elsewhere.
     
  4. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    No, sellers/vendors pay $75 per table to sell guns. Buyers/customers pay $6-7 a head to look at and buy guns.

    An argument can easily be made that walking around selling a gun, without buying vendor space, is robbing the show producer who paid for all the advertising that brought in the buyers.

    Not that I'm against doing so, I've done it myself. No problem with gun show parking lot sales either.
     
  5. Mr.Blue

    Mr.Blue Member

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    The analogy is not good. Walmart does not sell cars, nor do their customers go to Walmart to buy cars. It's about "like" merchandise. No one is saying that the OP owes the store based on the consignment contract. It's one of those things where it's the right thing to do, at least IMHO. The money the buyer spent on the gun might have been on it's way in to buy a gun from the dealer. Afterall, the buyer wasn't going there to buy milk.

    If I was in the Walmart parking lot selling a TV (or some other product Walmart sells), they would call the police and I would be escorted off of the property. There is no question in my mind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  6. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    No, the buyer specifically wanted to purchase the firearm. The dealer , who was authorized to accept the a lower price or offer to sell at a lower price, failed to do so. The firearm was removed from consignment after aprox 3 months in the dealers possesion. The buyer leaves the store and places an unsolicitated offer for the firearm shows that he had no intent on purchasing an alternate firearm from the store.

    The Walmart analogy may be used as thus. You make a private sale here at THR and agree to meet at a safe location...Walmart parking lot. You conduct the sale. Walmart sells firearms. Does Walmart deserve part of the sale? Perhaps not since someone would probably reason that Walmart, being a corporation, does not need to be afforded the same courtesy as the local gun store.

    As for selling a TV in the Walmart parking lot, there should be an understood difference between intent and coincidence. Not one poster would agree with setting up a table to sell guns in front of your LGS, however, a review of the circumstances would reveal that there was no intent of denying the LGS of a sale.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  7. Mr.Blue

    Mr.Blue Member

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    But you made the deal on the Internet and just met at Walmart to exchange. The "meeting of the minds" (contract) occurred online. Walmart didn't "introduce" the buyer and seller. If you were coming out of a bakery, you would never have met this guy nor sold your gun to him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  8. WaltonS

    WaltonS Member

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    Blue, no amount of argument changes the fact that the buyer was unable to make a deal with the dealer. Speculative though it may be, the fact of the matter remains, it's the dealer's job to make the sale. Failure to do so means no profit for him.
     
  9. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    Mr Blue...
    To understand this correctly, because there was a meeting of the minds, it's ok to meet at Walmart, even though they sell guns? But it 's not ok to do this at you local dealers parking lot without paying him? Pehaps the greedy corporations don't need the money, but the "little" guy does?
     
  10. BK

    BK Member

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    I'm with the handful of other gun dealers who've responded. The consignment contract ended when the gun slid back across the counter. I would not have asked the OP for any of his proceeds.
     
  11. Hot brass

    Hot brass Member

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    Go find a new dealer. This one smells a bit fishy.
     
  12. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    He absolutely wouldn't. If the dealer didn't broker the transaction, he didn't earn a commission. If the OP set up the transaction, whether before or after retaking physical possession of his rifle, he is entitled to 100% of the proceeds.
     
  13. cbuttre835

    cbuttre835 Member

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    I have sold stuff on consignment, and had stuff not sell - musical instruments - and the guy was great to deal with.

    We only set one price - what I want out of it - and the shop owner would mark it up 10%.

    When I'd go check on it, if I wanted $600, it'd be marked $660, for example.

    When it sold, I'd pick the check up. For $600. If it didn't sell, I'd take it home after a month or two, and would pay nothing.

    I have bought consignment guns at my LGS, too. He seems to be on the up-and-up - he gets 15%. He will moderate though, and come off his 15% to make a sale.

    He had a rifle marked $575 - which means the owner wanted $500. I offered $500 as it had some dust on it. A couple days later he told me the seller had to have $450; his 15% would have been $517.50. I stood by my $500... he said "well $50 is better than nothing." So he made 11%.

    If he had refused my $500 and said, "nope, the lowest we can go is $517.50", and I had left; and bought it in the parking lot for $450 a few days later.... he would have deserved zilch. zero. nada. For he did not facilitate the sale.

    He had the chance to negotiate with you - "I've got a guy wanting this gun, will you take $xxx.xx for it?" and make him a little cut. He did not call / contact you I assume.

    In my humble opinion, he had his chance and did not take advantage of it.

    Set your bottom dollar, not 'asking price' and 'lowest taking price' - don't invite them to steal from you (in case they get asking price but deliver you your lowest taking price) - and leave it to them.
     
  14. nosmr2

    nosmr2 Member

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    You don't owe him jack.
     
  15. Mr.Blue

    Mr.Blue Member

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    You don't understand. The deal in your imaginary scenario was struck online, not at Walmart. Walmart's gun counter did not bring this buyer to you. You DID NOT sell it to a gun customer on his way to Walmart to purchase a gun. That is totally different than what happened in reality.

    A parallel would be selling your gun in the Walmart parking lot to someone heading into Walmart to purchase a firearm. You would be wrong to do that and would be escorted off the premises by the police.

    I won't argue it anymore. There is a disconnect in ideals. Who's to say who is correct.
     
  16. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    The question of whether or not it is ok to meet in the parking lot of ANY store, whther it be a chain store or LGS was not answered. I believe some here would cry foul for the LGS parking lot and not so for Walmart.

    The intent is the same. As in the REALITY situation, there was no planned meeting. There was no setting up in front of the store attempting to steal a sale. The dealer failed to make the sale and the customer, seeing that the gun was being returned, made an unsolicited offer to purchase. The dealer, feeling scorned and believing that he deserved some form of entitlement, demanded payment. It seems as though the original situation and ideals have become convoluted in an attempt to justify a certain position.

    In the interest of civility I will also refrain from further argument with certain persons. Hopefully this thread will remain open so we can hear other opinions.
     
  17. Mr.Blue

    Mr.Blue Member

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    I clearly wrote that it would be wrong.
     
  18. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    Last word....:D
     
  19. gearchecker

    gearchecker Member

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    If he sold the other guns for you, you have the right to ask to see legitimate sales receipts for all the guns he sold for you. He needs to provide those receipts as proof of the closed transaction. If he indicates he'll need a day or 2 to locate them, I'd be inclined to believe he's cheating you. Locating the receipts for these sales should only take a few minutes if he keeps legitimate books. Then you can decide if he was cheating you or not.

    My guess is he sold them at the bottom price because you gave him that option, and he got some quick commission on those sales without working very hard for it.
    As far as owing him commission on the sale of the gun outside his possession my response is that you don't owe him anything. But you'll probably never be able to do business with them again.
    Tough proposition.

    Regards,
    Gearchecker
     
  20. Panzercat

    Panzercat Member

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    I agree with this. Somehow you were able to make the deal he couldn't/didn't/wouldn't. If he can ask you for commission, you can ask him for compensation of your wasted time and having done his work for him.

    I sympathize slightly for being out in front of the store, but frankly the store owner should have just had the good grace to recognize his missed opportunity with the guy the gun was ultimately sold to instead of trying to burn somebody who obviously engages in repeat business with him. That alone tells me he's not too bright.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  21. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    We've already addressed that in various forms (like the BMW dealership parking lot).

    Is it "wrong" to use the parking lot in this fashion--going there with the intention to find a buyer but not to go to the show? I think it's wrong. Should I pay the show fee if I do that anyway? No.

    The show fee is typically for entry to the show--where there are far more people in any given moment than are in the parking lot. If the show organizer wants to arrange the ticket purchase and ticket-taking so that a ticket is required for access to the show AND to the parking lot, then I should pay if I enter the parking lot.

    Hypothetical: My town has a gun buy-back, and will melt down the collected guns. I see a guy standing in the buy-back line with a GREAT M1. And so I buy if from him.

    The gun buy-back brought us together. I guess I have no ethical choice but to take my newly purchased M1...and hand it over for melt-down.

    :D
     
  22. doubleh

    doubleh Member

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    When you took your gun back any deal you had with the store became null and void. When you met the customer outside the door it was a private conservation and sale. I would have moved off the store property to make the sale though. If I understand right the buyer had already tried to deal with the store and couldn't. The store had his chance at the commission and failed. Too bad for him but not your fault. You owe him nothing.

    It sounds as though you got the shaft on your other dealings with him but since you no longer go to that store I would chalk it up to experience and forget it.

    If it had been my local dealer he would have told me he was glad I got it sold as he couldn't.
     
  23. 45bthompson

    45bthompson Member

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    I wouldn't have paid the dealer commision he didn't earn. If we are talking about morals then you prolly did better than I would have assuming you didn't go back into his store and raise your point and speculation in front of his true customers.
     
  24. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Simple, he asks for the commission
    you ask for the previous consignment sales receipts

    I don't think you will have him asking for the commission after that.
     
  25. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

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    Heh, heh... pretty good suggestion. :D
     
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