Should S&W bring back 3rd gen pistols?

[GooseGestapo]

I want a 329 pd-ish 22lr. 4 or 6 inch barrel air weight double Acton/ single action. My k frame 22s are so dang heavy I usually take a 22/45 or Glock 44. Lol

You mean something like this?

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[C0untZer0]

Just wait a few years, the Turks will make them.

 

[Riomouse911]

Comparing a brand-new design DWX to a 30+ year old S&W Gen 3 design is a tad disingenuous. The two designs are apples and oranges, to say the least.

IMHO, S&W will never bring back the old Gen 3 semi auto pistols. Too expensive to retool, too much competition, not enough demand.

Stay safe.

 

[starling]

All this talk about the S&W 3rd gen tech being surpassed LOL. Funny stuff. 3rd generation S&W perform better than most of the "modern" stuff out there. People must be sniffing glue and smoking polymer while watching youtube shills and influencers pushing "modern" pistols that are based around lower manufacturing costs not quality to the consumer. 3rd Gen S&W dominated the LE field (along with Beretta) before Glock came in and started making their deals to undercut US firearms manufacturers. At that point S&W had no choice but to start producing low cost polymer pistols.

Its a shame S&W abandoned the 3rd gen. I think Legacy versions of the 9mm and 10mms would still do pretty well. They can fancy them up a little like Sig Sauer has done with their legacy pistols... which have "tech" thats not really been surpassed either. If anything the 1911 is outdated but people still buying those in high numbers across the board in terms of cost. CZ75 clones are endless as well.

3rd gen smiths were always excellent and well vetted pistols. Why they were discontinued has nothing to do with performance or quality. Sooner or later if all these new gun owners of the last 10-15 years started learning history they will learn about the Glock effect on the firearms industry. Almost an endless number of quality pistols have been dumped through the years so that companies could maximize profits and focus more on marketing than craftsmanship, quality, or value.

All manufacturers should have a Legacy line IMO. Ruger never should kept at least 1 variation of the P Series. S&W should have kept a 3rd gen alive even if in special runs. Being that 10mm is all the rage now I say bring back the 1006. Still one of the best 10mms ever made and lots of quality. Almost all major manufacturers keep their Legacy line but S&W and Ruger dropped the ball on their semi autos pretty badly IMO.

 

[peacebutready]

CZ75 clones are endless as well.

CZ still makes the 75, of course. The only clone I can think of is Tanfoglio. I think the Turks stopped making their CZ clones. Am I missing any other clones?

 

[P5 Guy]

Generation 2 is pictured. I also have a 39-2 and a 3904. The single stack grip frame works best with my short fingers. And no, they had a good run. It is time to move on.

 

[GEM]

Well, three cheers for capitalism:

Almost an endless number of quality pistols have been dumped through the years so that companies could maximize profits and focus more on marketing than craftsmanship, quality, or value.

What a strange idea! My 1994 Honda Civic was a great car, got 41 mpg at times, had A/C and an AM/FM radio. Stick shift - drove it all around the country for 250k miles with minimal hassle. Cost less than $10K. I'd buy another if they still made them. Don't need all the computer stuff.

I hear the navy dumped Essex class carriers too!

 

[Homerboy]

They’re not gonna bring them back because it is cheaper to make plastic M&P’s so they make more profit. I own several M&P’s and several Glocks. Good guns, for sure. But my home defense gun is a 5906. The only thing of value plastic offers over metal is weight, and for a home defense gun that doesn’t matter. S&W 3rd gen’s have three characteristics I like: a hammer, a safety, and a mag disconnect. I do not leave loaded weapons not on my direct person. Nothing chambered is in the safe. The 5906 is locked in a safe with a magazine in and no round chambered. In the unlikely event one of my children could get into the safe, they’re not picking up a hot weapon. My 30 year old 5906 does the same thing your 30 day old Gen 5 Glock does, launch a 9MM bullet at 1100 fps. All the other “improvements” do nothing substantial. I don’t need accessory rails and lights bolted to my guns. I shoot a pistol match a few years ago with my old 5946, just to see if I could. The targets still fell down and I placed 7th out of 25. Sights? Trijicon 3 dot sights, just recently re-lamped for $57. Worked fine in the housing projects of Brooklyn in the crime filled early 90’s. I figure they’ll get me through the rest of my days.

As far as triggers, the SA pull on my 5906 will blow the doors off your plastic gun, Apex trigger or not. Yeah, you can super tune a trigger to be 3 pounds. I don’t want that so it’s a non-issue.

So no, I don’t think they should bring them back. I do think they should continue to stockpile parts. These things were built to last a lifetime and millions of them are still serving their owners quite well.

 

[starling]

I still think there is a big market for Legacy pistols. Sig Brought back the P210 and changed a few things, Colt.... the Python (among others) plus they never stopped making 1911s. The prices on used S&W 1006s are almost always $1000- $1500 and up for nice ones. Ruger never put out a 10mm P series like people wanted so thats an easy one as well. Its not rocket science the manufacturers are just lazy and cheap so busy copying trends (mostly Glock and Kellgren) that they are not willing to make any.

The Bare Bones S&W 3rd Gen 915 9mm will perform as well as anything out there these days. People have just been brainwashed with cheap injection molded plastic frames and spongy triggers that they try to excuse or cure will all kinds of aftermarket options. For budget guns in the $300-$350 street price range its fine but watching people pay $600-$1000 for plastic economy manufacturing because of a "brand" name is kinda silly. And then you have the issue of manufacturer recalls due to lack of testing. Something the Gun community along with major manufacturers just accept as SOP now. I can accept it from small start up USA based manufacturers but its unacceptable from the major "Brands". Nice thing with Legacy pistols is the kinks and bugs have been worked out of the design.

Theres not a whole lot out there in terms of innovation now. Glock has been the same design for 40 years now. Keltec is the most innovative but but outside Kellgrens implementation of modular sub frames most of it has been fairly glitchy and fragile and the P11 is around 30 years old now. 22wmr pistols (while neat) are not the answer any more than the 30Super.

My opinion is Firearms enthusiasts need to start expecting more ...especially from US manufacturers. Most of the foreign based companies are keeping their legacy lines and enhancing them. They milked the panic marketing fad out as far as it could go with mass produced low manufacturing cost stuff. Its time they get back to better craftsmanship and offerings that dont need a recall after the first year.

 

[Homerboy]

I still think there is a big market for Legacy pistols. Sig Brought back the P210 and changed a few things, Colt.... the Python (among others) plus they never stopped making 1911s. The prices on used S&W 1006s are almost always $1000- $1500 and up for nice ones. Ruger never put out a 10mm P series like people wanted so thats an easy one as well. Its not rocket science the manufacturers are just lazy and cheap so busy copying trends (mostly Glock and Kellgren) that they are not willing to make any.

The Bare Bones S&W 3rd Gen 915 9mm will perform as well as anything out there these days. People have just been brainwashed with cheap injection molded plastic frames and spongy triggers that they try to excuse or cure will all kinds of aftermarket options. For budget guns in the $300-$350 street price range its fine but watching people pay $600-$1000 for plastic economy manufacturing because of a "brand" name is kinda silly. And then you have the issue of manufacturer recalls due to lack of testing. Something the Gun community along with major manufacturers just accept as SOP now. I can accept it from small start up USA based manufacturers but its unacceptable from the major "Brands". Nice thing with Legacy pistols is the kinks and bugs have been worked out of the design.

Theres not a whole lot out there in terms of innovation now. Glock has been the same design for 40 years now. Keltec is the most innovative but but outside Kellgrens implementation of modular sub frames most of it has been fairly glitchy and fragile and the P11 is around 30 years old now. 22wmr pistols (while neat) are not the answer any more than the 30Super.

My opinion is Firearms enthusiasts need to start expecting more ...especially from US manufacturers. Most of the foreign based companies are keeping their legacy lines and enhancing them. They milked the panic marketing fad out as far as it could go with mass produced low manufacturing cost stuff. Its time they get back to better craftsmanship and offerings that dont need a recall after the first year.

Yep. Out of box 3rd Gen guns didn't need aftermarket parts or triggers. Some of the people I beat at that shoot were using tricked out race car Glocks and M&P's. And they lost to my 52 year old eyes and 30 year old DAO (with an 11 pound trigger) 5946.

 

[starling]

Yep. Out of box 3rd Gen guns didn't need aftermarket parts or triggers. Some of the people I beat at that shoot were using tricked out race car Glocks and M&P's. And they lost to my 52 year old eyes and 30 year old DAO (with an 11 pound trigger) 5946.

I liked the DAO 3rd gens. I still shoot/carry a 4043 a bit. Only thing I dont like about the DAOs is you have to reset the hammers in the even of a hard primer. Then again you get such good ignition on 3rd gen smiths even hard primers ignite reliably. Kind of hard to explain this stuff to new gun enthusiasts but almost everything feels like a toy these days compared to a lot of what was popular in the 80s and 90s and I dont just mean the weight. Aluminum frames are not that heavy. There are a whole lot of great firearms between the 1911 and Glock. S&W 3rd gens were one of them. Very popular with LE and recreational shooters across the board. As were the Ruger P series pistols.

 

[Homerboy]

I liked the DAO 3rd gens. I still shoot/carry a 4043 a bit. Only thing I dont like about the DAOs is you have to reset the hammers in the even of a hard primer. Then again you get such good ignition on 3rd gen smiths even hard primers ignite reliably. Kind of hard to explain this stuff to new gun enthusiasts but almost everything feels like a toy these days compared to a lot of what was popular in the 80s and 90s and I dont just mean the weight. Aluminum frames are not that heavy. There are a whole lot of great firearms between the 1911 and Glock. S&W 3rd gens were one of them. Very popular with LE and recreational shooters across the board. As were the Ruger P series pistols.

Yep. I only shot my own handloads in my guns and never needed a second strike, although I wouldn't mind having it. But that would mean the DA pull would be the same as on a DA/SA gun, and the DAO pull on the 5946 is better than the DA pull on my 5906.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Colt.... the Python (among others) plus they never stopped making 1911s.

They also went broke and are owned by a foreign country. If smith wants to survive by selling clothes, bad knives, revolvers and old heavy clunkers they will be owned by some other country as well. Smith has sold and laid off many times trying to rely on their old stuff.

Sig would be broke if they had to depend on the 210 or 226/229/220 etc making any profit. The plastic gun will keep them afloat though. Unless it keeps going off and shooting Leo. Then they will sell too.

 

[peacebutready]

I still think there is a big market for Legacy pistols. Sig Brought back the P210 and changed a few things, Colt.... the Python (among others) plus they never stopped making 1911s. The prices on used S&W 1006s are almost always $1000- $1500 and up for nice ones. Ruger never put out a 10mm P series like people wanted so thats an easy one as well. Its not rocket science the manufacturers are just lazy and cheap so busy copying trends (mostly Glock and Kellgren) that they are not willing to make any.

The Bare Bones S&W 3rd Gen 915 9mm will perform as well as anything out there these days. People have just been brainwashed with cheap injection molded plastic frames and spongy triggers that they try to excuse or cure will all kinds of aftermarket options. For budget guns in the $300-$350 street price range its fine but watching people pay $600-$1000 for plastic economy manufacturing because of a "brand" name is kinda silly. And then you have the issue of manufacturer recalls due to lack of testing. Something the Gun community along with major manufacturers just accept as SOP now. I can accept it from small start up USA based manufacturers but its unacceptable from the major "Brands". Nice thing with Legacy pistols is the kinks and bugs have been worked out of the design.

Theres not a whole lot out there in terms of innovation now. Glock has been the same design for 40 years now. Keltec is the most innovative but but outside Kellgrens implementation of modular sub frames most of it has been fairly glitchy and fragile and the P11 is around 30 years old now. 22wmr pistols (while neat) are not the answer any more than the 30Super.

My opinion is Firearms enthusiasts need to start expecting more ...especially from US manufacturers. Most of the foreign based companies are keeping their legacy lines and enhancing them. They milked the panic marketing fad out as far as it could go with mass produced low manufacturing cost stuff. Its time they get back to better craftsmanship and offerings that dont need a recall after the first year.

Good post.

Agreed on the market for legacy pistols, especially with 1006s going for $1000 to $1500 and up. I didn't know they go for that much money. I noticed some "blemished" Colt Pythons were sold out quickly for $1100.

I don't know how well the P210s are selling.

I get the S&W 915 confused with the 910. I'd have to look to see which is which. IIRC, one had a short production run with the other a much longer production run.

I think the Sig P320 is a bit more spendy that what it should be. When the military adopted it without it having much of a history, I knew there would be issues. I recall one person accusing Sig of using their customers as beta testers.

 

[peacebutready]

Yep. Out of box 3rd Gen guns didn't need aftermarket parts or triggers. Some of the people I beat at that shoot were using tricked out race car Glocks and M&P's. And they lost to my 52 year old eyes and 30 year old DAO (with an 11 pound trigger) 5946.

Impressive. I'm surprised you don't use DA/SA for action shooting.

 

[starling]

They also went broke and are owned by a foreign country. If smith wants to survive by selling clothes, bad knives, revolvers and old heavy clunkers they will be owned by some other country as well. Smith has sold and laid off many times trying to rely on their old stuff.

Sig would be broke if they had to depend on the 210 or 226/229/220 etc making any profit. The plastic gun will keep them afloat though. Unless it keeps going off and shooting Leo. Then they will sell too.

Meh, I think there is room for both. Keep the plastic models going and bring back a legacy model or two in smaller runs. 1006 is an obvious one but maybe one of the various 9mm version as well. Its not a wild concept really. Most major manufacturers are doing it. Im not wild about what Beretta is doing with their legacy models (92 & 84) but at least they are not dumping the well proven design entirely. Had 10mm been as popular as it is now the 1006 might have never been discontinued. R&D costs on the S&W 3rd gens are a non issue and it seems like S&W introduces a new plastic pistol every month lately. Both S&W and Ruger do some bonehead moves sometimes (as do others) but dropping their premium semi auto lines entirely was a head scratcher. S&W M&P line is nice for low cost but they are nowhere near the 3rd gen series in terms of quality and craftsmanship. Ruger is just a mess right now LOL. Sometimes I wonder if the decision makers at Ruger are all on drugs let alone their QC departments.

 

[peacebutready]

They also went broke and are owned by a foreign country. If smith wants to survive by selling clothes, bad knives, revolvers and old heavy clunkers they will be owned by some other country as well. Smith has sold and laid off many times trying to rely on their old stuff.

Sig would be broke if they had to depend on the 210 or 226/229/220 etc making any profit. The plastic gun will keep them afloat though. Unless it keeps going off and shooting Leo. Then they will sell too.

If a LEO with a P320 has a negligent discharge, he/she can blame it on the gun.

 

[peacebutready]

Meh, I think there is room for both. Keep the plastic models going and bring back a legacy model or two in smaller runs. 1006 is an obvious one but maybe one of the various 9mm version as well. Its not a wild concept really. Most major manufacturers are doing it. Im not wild about what Beretta is doing with their legacy models (92 & 84) but at least they are not dumping the well proven design entirely. Had 10mm been as popular as it is now the 1006 might have never been discontinued. R&D costs on the S&W 3rd gens are a non issue and it seems like S&W introduces a new plastic pistol every month lately. Both S&W and Ruger do some bonehead moves sometimes (as do others) but dropping their premium semi auto lines entirely was a head scratcher. S&W M&P line is nice for low cost but they are nowhere near the 3rd gen series in terms of quality and craftsmanship. Ruger is just a mess right now LOL. Sometimes I wonder if the decision makers at Ruger are all on drugs let alone their QC departments.

Boneheaded moves may be to milk the manufacturer as much as possible. An investment company bought Remington in 2007. They ran the company into the ground.

Maybe decision makers at Ruger are on drugs, or micro-dosing drugs like some do in Silicon Valley.

 

[Homerboy]

Impressive. I'm surprised you don't use DA/SA for action shooting.

I don’t compete at all. I was just invited to an informal shooting event at a private club. I brought the DAO version specifically to see how well I could do with it.

 

[starling]

Good post.

Agreed on the market for legacy pistols, especially with 1006s going for $1000 to $1500 and up. I didn't know they go for that much money. I noticed some "blemished" Colt Pythons were sold out quickly for $1100.

I don't know how well the P210s are selling.

I get the S&W 915 confused with the 910. I'd have to look to see which is which. IIRC, one had a short production run with the other a much longer production run.

I think the Sig P320 is a bit more spendy that what it should be. When the military adopted it without it having much of a history, I knew there would be issues. I recall one person accusing Sig of using their customers as beta testers.

910 was their budget 5900 series (some plastic parts) similar to what Ruger does sometimes when they put out an E version of a pistol.. (LC9, SR9 etc.). The 915 is closer to what was sent for the Military trials which is kinda why I wanted one. Pretty much a no frills milspec 5900. All of them are good pistols though. I cant think of a bad S&W 3rd gen off the top of my head people just get a little confused by all the variations as there are a lot of them.

It really wasnt until Glock started winning contracts (Glock was cheap) that S&W overacted and went full blown polymer brain with the Sigma series (which I am actually a fan for a polymer budget pistol). Then came the Walther partnership on the P99 and eventually the M&P series. It didnt have anything to do with performance of the 3rd gen series pistols.

It always suprised me at the time that S&W didnt go the route of putting out a line of polymer framed 3rd gen pistols similar to what Ruger did with the P series and Taurus with the PT Sig Beretta hybrids (now known as the TH series). Somebody at S&W got a bit obsessed with Glocks profit margins is my guess. Are they better pistols now? No, not really. I see them as inferior to be honest. Same goes for almost all these manufacturers when you compare the "modern" stuff to their Legacy line pistols. Beretta 92 > APX series, Sig P series > 320 series etc. etc. People just fall for marketing hype and sales talk. Add to that a whole slew of newbies that have no experience with well crafted firearms and you end up with a market of plastic gun junkies who freak out when they shoot a 1911 and realize what a real handgun feels like.

The weight issue is far overblown as well. I see lots of people complain about the weight of a pistol when they themselves are overweight far more than the miniscule difference of a steel/aluminum frame vs a polymer one. Capactity is the same if not very close (in 9mm anyways). Triggers are much better. Accuracy is better from my experience on all the 3rd gens etc.

Keep the budget plastic pistols and include 1 or 2 legacy models for flagship quality. Offer performance center upgrades for the segment of the market that likes to show off or post fancy pictures online etc. Its not that difficult. Profits might not be as high but it allows a major manufacturer to keep market share. S&W and Ruger just tossed in the towel and abandoned that entire segment in their semi auto lineup. Pretty short sighted and TBH dumb.

 

[peacebutready]

910 was their budget 5900 series (some plastic parts) similar to what Ruger does sometimes when they put out an E version of a pistol.. (LC9, SR9 etc.). The 915 is closer to what was sent for the Military trials which is kinda why I wanted one. Pretty much a no frills milspec 5900. All of them are good pistols though. I cant think of a bad S&W 3rd gen off the top of my head people just get a little confused by all the variations as there are a lot of them.

It really wasnt until Glock started winning contracts (Glock was cheap) that S&W overacted and went full blown polymer brain with the Sigma series (which I am actually a fan for a polymer budget pistol). Then came the Walther partnership on the P99 and eventually the M&P series. It didnt have anything to do with performance of the 3rd gen series pistols.

It always suprised me at the time that S&W didnt go the route of putting out a line of polymer framed 3rd gen pistols similar to what Ruger did with the P series and Taurus with the PT Sig Beretta hybrids (now known as the TH series). Somebody at S&W got a bit obsessed with Glocks profit margins is my guess. Are they better pistols now? No, not really. I see them as inferior to be honest. Same goes for almost all these manufacturers when you compare the "modern" stuff to their Legacy line pistols. Beretta 92 > APX series, Sig P series > 320 series etc. etc. People just fall for marketing hype and sales talk. Add to that a whole slew of newbies that have no experience with well crafted firearms and you end up with a market of plastic gun junkies who freak out when they shoot a 1911 and realize what a real handgun feels like.

The weight issue is far overblown as well. I see lots of people complain about the weight of a pistol when they themselves are overweight far more than the miniscule difference of a steel/aluminum frame vs a polymer one. Capactity is the same if not very close (in 9mm anyways). Triggers are much better. Accuracy is better from my experience on all the 3rd gens etc.

Keep the budget plastic pistols and include 1 or 2 legacy models for flagship quality. Offer performance center upgrades for the segment of the market that likes to show off or post fancy pictures online etc. Its not that difficult. Profits might not be as high but it allows a major manufacturer to keep market share. S&W and Ruger just tossed in the towel and abandoned that entire segment in their semi auto lineup. Pretty short sighted and TBH dumb.

Another good post, sir.

I didn't know S&W sent a pistol for military trials in the 80s.

I think the latest SD9/40 and SD9/40VE look better than the M&P series. There is the M&P in tan with the 5" barrel that is nice to my eyes, though.

I shoot my 1911 better than my 9mm polymer gun. Also, I don't feel a bond with my polymer like I do with the 1911.

Manufacturers offering 1 or 2 legacy models would keep interest in the brand up by enthusiasts. I think a legacy 10mm from S&W would probably fly off the shelves given the increased popularity of the caliber. The new Python flew off shelves when they first came out. People were flipping them for up to $3K. I don't know what the demand for them is now, though.

Maybe some manufacturers like S&W need to receive a bunch of letters from the enthusiasts of the world urging them to build a legacy model.

 

[starling]

Boneheaded moves may be to milk the manufacturer as much as possible. An investment company bought Remington in 2007. They ran the company into the ground.

Maybe decision makers at Ruger are on drugs, or micro-dosing drugs like some do in Silicon Valley.

After watching how many corporations and companies intentionally sabotage themselves nothing surprises me anymore. I dont think S&W is necessarily trying to do that but they are being pretty short sighted IMO.

Ruger on the other hand LOL. Many dont seem to remember that Ruger was making some pretty major inroads into the LE realms successfully with the P89, P90, P91, P94 pistols and had very favorable opinions. In the Semi Auto centerfire territory Rugers entire reputation is based on that line of pistols.. Tanks, They just work, No Breakages, Bombproof etc. etc. Their solution... just dump the entire line and become obsessed with a lower tier manufacturer like Keltec. Such a strange direction they took. Looked like things were getting back to the old Ruger Tank standards with the American series but they botched the ergos a little... so its back to Keltec obsession now. Rugers biggest legacy pistol now is the fairly fragile LCP which isnt even their design LOL. Bill would not be pleased.

 

[starling]

Another good post, sir.

I didn't know S&W sent a pistol for military trials in the 80s.

I think the latest SD9/40 and SD9/40VE look better than the M&P series. There is the M&P in tan with the 5" barrel that is nice to my eyes, though.

I shoot my 1911 better than my 9mm polymer gun. Also, I don't feel a bond with my polymer like I do with the 1911.

Manufacturers offering 1 or 2 legacy models would keep interest in the brand up by enthusiasts. I think a legacy 10mm from S&W would probably fly off the shelves given the increased popularity of the caliber. The new Python flew off shelves when they first came out. People were flipping them for up to $3K. I don't know what the demand for them is now, though.

Maybe some manufacturers like S&W need to receive a bunch of letters from the enthusiasts of the world urging them to build a legacy model.

I think it was a 459 because the third gens had not come along yet. From my memory (which can be wrong sometimes) it failed the salt spray test. Now you have me thinking LOL

 

[sevt_chevelle]

Comparing a brand-new design DWX to a 30+ year old S&W Gen 3 design is a tad disingenuous. The two designs are apples and oranges, to say the least.

Stay safe.

The trigger parts ARE 1911 parts, that's a 100 year plus design.
The rest of the gun is a CZ 75, that's a pretty old design as well. The only new thing about it, is combining the two together.

But you completely missed my point, people are willing to spend 2K and more on pistols.
The popularity of Staccato went through the roof in last 2-3 years and they start at 2.5k.
My local dealer sells about 5 Altas gunworks 2011 a month, those are 6 to 7 k.
So IMO the whole it's too costly is kinda moot.

As I said before, a plain Jane 3rd gen....nope.
But update the thing, higher mag capacity, unstupidify the whole trigger/action, gear it towards competition, price it at 1500 to 2000 and people will buy it.
They'll buy it just like the dwx, tso, beretta performance, staccato etc.

 

[W.E.G.]

I'd buy a new Model 39!

Even though I've already got one (or two)!