Should the second amendment apply to the mentally ill?

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If you let politicians and bureaucrats decide who is insane pretty soon they are going to include people who want or have guns. I may sound like a joke but a lot of them think that way or are more than willing to pounce on any scheme to deprive you of gun rights.
 
If you let politicians and bureaucrats decide who is insane pretty soon they are going to include people who want or have guns. I may sound like a joke but a lot of them think that way or are more than willing to pounce on any scheme to deprive you of gun rights.
I know of at least one judge in Virginia (back in the bad old discretionary-issue days) who would NOT issue you a permit if you were receiving death threats on the grounds that the threats would leave you "agitated and not mentally fit to carry a gun."
 
“Patient has no thoughts of hurting himself. Patient has no thoughts of hurting others. Patient is not having suicidal thoughts. Patient is not having homicidal thoughts.”

Even a cleared report card sounds scary from these people. The problem with these conditional 'limitations' on our rights is the 'ol "the severity of the charges warrants additional caution" conundrum that arises when the mechanism holding officials accountable doesn't properly match the extent of their authority. What doctor wouldn't tend to disqualify his patients, knowing that such a state means that whatever harm they cause with a gun won't fall back on him, and that he will bear no liability for whatever harm may come to them as a result of the disqualification. You either need a darn good appeals process to rapidly resolve any dispute between patient and physician regarding their disposition (so the accused is not without rights for long and suffers no enduring consequences of a reversal), or a mechanism that puts even more of the physician's skin in the game. As they seem to seek more and more power to regulate every waking moment of our lives*, perhaps their accountability as professionals should likewise blossom.

Maybe when that whirlwind is reaped they will yearn for a more limited sway over our health decisions ;)

TCB

*Individual doctors may not seek this, but as professional and advocacy groups they darn sure do. It goes hand in hand with being sensory organs for insurance companies (and now, the government)
 
I had an argument with a friend about this. My final opinion was that if a person does dangerous things, there are already legal mechanisms in place to deprive them of their 2a right. If they demonstrate that they are a danger to themselves and to others, then their rights are restricted to the level appropriate of the crime they committed that demonstrated they are a danger. That is how our legal system works. Until they commit a crime and are sentenced during the course of due process to a punishment that includes the loss of rights, a person has full rights.
To me even a diagnosis of a "mental illness" of potentially serious nature is not grounds of the loss of 2a rights. Bipolar/schizophrenic? Not a problem in my books if that person does no harm to others or themselves. I don't care if they bark at the moon while wearing a coat made out of beer cartons. Its still a free country to be weird as long as no laws are being broken.
We don't take away 2a rights as a kneejerk reaction to other treatable diseases, do we?
The problem is access to affordable medication and proper health care, not access to guns, imo.
 
"Fixed that for you."
You get my point, though, that there's some Heisenberg/Loaded Question aspect to the very notion of analyzing (let alone approving!) others' sanity; the fact you are asking the question biases the result.

I'm not saying psychiatrists can't be objective or beneficial, what I'm saying is the type of arrangements these sorts of laws create tend to result in what is essentially a conflict of interest that works against the patient.

"That is how our legal system works. Until they commit a crime and are sentenced during the course of due process to a punishment that includes the loss of rights, a person has full rights."
Sadly, that's not good enough for many people, who cannot abide risk; perceived or otherwise. Very much like gun control, nut control is just 'one of those things' that gets many people to say and do anything that promises self-preservation. The way I have come to rationalize the theoretical toleration of a nut job who could crack and kill me and others at a moment's notice*, has a few facets:
-I respect the nut job as a human being, deserving of the attendant respect and freedom, so long as he reciprocates (personal freedom argument)
-Though his actions could cut short the freedom of myself and others, the greater loss is the real or practical loss of freedom for us all in anticipation of his actions (utilitarian argument)
-There is too much practical difficulty in setting up anything but an arbitrary threshold, before the point violent action has taken place. Ockham's Razor would suggest this is because such a concept is incorrect (logical argument)
-Expanding upon the last point but at a larger scale, there is no way the fixed criteria we would require for a just ruling to be applied to myriad different illnesses (to say nothing of individuals) --by a board of unfamiliar strangers, no less-- and reliably identify & disposition potential threats of this nature without relying almost entirely on a bias towards false positives to remove them from society (legal argument).
-Further, the only way to reliably identify & disposition these threats, provided there was some perfect Machine God that could tally an individual's deeds, feel their soul, and cast judgment upon their being, it could only arrive at the conclusion after first violating their humanity, utterly. And in such case the result is negative, how do you then reconcile this existential humiliation? (spiritual argument)

TCB

*Not a very intuitive statement, that ;). And despite my musings, I fully expect I would be very uncomfortable in such a circumstance, probably prompting me to remove mine/myself from the situation of perceived risk.

"We don't take away 2a rights as a kneejerk reaction to other treatable diseases, do we?"
We've gotten dangerously close to that with Ebola, recently. Being quarantined to a hospital or urban hell-hole isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of your right to bear arms. Unlike 'nuts,' Ebola can actually be diagnosed reliably, given a fairly short time period. The observation window for 'nuts' never really ends, it seems.

"I don't care if they bark at the moon while wearing a coat made out of beer cartons."
Hey! I resemble(d) that remark last week!
 
The term "mentally ill" is far to broad. Allowing Big Brother to determines who is mentally ill means anybody can be deprived of 2nd Am rights. It's the classic "Catch 22" if you want a gun you are clearly mentally ill-"Request Denied".

Paranoid Schizophrenic/depression etc NO. Almost anything else, if you are OK to function in society, you are OK to defend yourself IMHO.
 
The term "mentally ill" is far to broad. Allowing Big Brother to determines who is mentally ill means anybody can be deprived of 2nd Am rights. It's the classic "Catch 22" if you want a gun you are clearly mentally ill-"Request Denied".

Paranoid Schizophrenic/depression etc NO. Almost anything else, if you are OK to function in society, you are OK to defend yourself IMHO.

Why not a paranoid schizophrenic who is properly medicated and functions in society perfectly fine?

I think many people here are too dismissive and do not understand many of the mental illnesses that are being referenced.
My brother was diagnosed bipolar schizophrenic while I was living with him. Now mind you, my brother has multiple degrees from a major university, with a very high gpa, was a member of a fraternity, and led a completely normal social life. No prior indications whatsoever.
During the course of about 6 months he went from normal to hallucinations and complete paranoia. 6 months later he was back to normal thanks to a diagnosis and medication. That was 6 years ago and he has not had any issues since.

"Nut job" is a little too dismissive of the person experiencing this, and many, if not most people with serious mental illnesses lead a normal life because of access to the proper treatment.

it is a segment of mentally ill people who are undiagnosed, do not have access to medication, cannot pay, or refuse to take them that are a danger. Improving access to the proper treatment, and eliminating the stigma of "nut jobs" is a large part of that.

Barnbwt stated it very well, much more eloquently than I, as to why a level of risk is part of free society.
 
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This is exactly why this New York law is so dangerous, that is, who defines a person as "mentally ill"? What is the definition of "mentally ill"?

Do some research on psychology, psychiatry and sociology over the last 100 years. It's all so contradictory and unreliable, it's definitely not a hard science and hence, the rules keep changing. For example (I'm just throwing this out there) they once said homosexuality was a mental illness and now it's not. This is just one example of countless other examples of how psychology/sociology changes with the times.

I predict that very soon, anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ and/or the Bible will be labeled as mentally ill because the Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is a sin. In fact, all sex outside of marriage is a sin. However, only one man and one woman can get married. Hence, if you don't believe in gay marriage, you will be labelled mentally ill.

It's going to happen.
 
I agree with that. The Atlanta Fire Chief was just fired for putting his religious beliefs in a book a few years ago. Someone found out that he believed what the Bible says about morality. That nowadays is grounds for punishment and unfit for employment. Freedom of religion and free speech are long gone. The Bill of rights is becoming a fading memory.
 
No, gun rights do not extend to the mentally ill.

Nor most convicted criminals.

Nor non-citizens.

Nor drug addicts.

Not dishonorably discharged people, either.
 
Here's a simple solution -- everyone who can vote can bear arms.

I'm not sure that's a good solution. My father suffered from terrible and progressive dementia towards the end of his life.
But he wasn't a sad old codger in an armchair. He was a physically strong old man with a real mean streak.

He never lost the right to vote, and for a while we continued to take him to the polls. God knows what he did with his ballot...probably wrote dirty words on it and voted for Democrats. :)

But it was clear that he was a physical danger to himself and others, and eventually we made sure he no longer had access to firearms, sharp knives, chainsaws, automobiles, boats, matches, and on and on.

Families have always had to make these kinds of decisions. Does that mean we may end up denying our parents their 2A rights or the rights to their property? Yes, sadly that's what families have to do...and better that we do it than the government.

Tinpig
 
No, gun rights do not extend to the mentally ill.

Yes, they do. Perhaps you would like them not to, but currently, in most of the country, due process is still a thing.

Nor most convicted criminals.

Wrong here too. Most people who are convicted of crimes are convicted of minor crimes that do not carry a loss of rights as a penalty.

Nor non-citizens.

For the most part, with a few exceptions, wrong.
http://www.vrolyk.org/guns/alien-laws.html

"(See Title 18, USC Chapter 44, Section 922, part (y)(2) for details.)

Green-card holders and immigrant aliens who do not yet have their green card are both okay under federal law,"


Nor drug addicts.

Nope, I see plenty of people addicted to prescription medication that are legal to own firearms.

Not dishonorably discharged people, either.

But you did get this one right.
 
All of the pro- arguments assume that we can accurately diagnose mental problems and can accurately predict future behavior.

To convince me we can do that, have a psychiatrist predict what I will have for breakfast next Tuesday.
 
Vern,

What is your point?

Are you saying that it is possible to accurately predict the future behavior of all people that do not have mental illness?

Or are you saying that only mentally ill people commit crimes?

Who can predict other than yourself what you will be eating next Monday and how does what you eat has anything to do with the topic?
 
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All of the pro- arguments assume that we can accurately diagnose mental problems and can accurately predict future behavior.

To convince me we can do that, have a psychiatrist predict what I will have for breakfast next Tuesday.

So are you saying that your willingness to recognize a persons rights depends on your ability to predict their future behavior? :confused:

I don't know about you, but my pro-argument has nothing to do with predictions, or even diagnosis.

My pro-argument is simple. If a person has not committed a crime that carries the penalty of removal of ones 2a rights then they still have them.

The part that I am unsure of, and honestly have no answer for, is what approach to take for people who have been clinically diagnosed with a serious mental illness and, for whatever reason, refuse to take their medications or are not sufficiently treatable with known techniques or drugs.
Refusal to take readily available treatments, imo, is grounds for the removal of ones 2a rights, through due process. Of course, as an American, one has the right to refuse to take their medication.
Then again, should the exercise of one right mean the removal of another?
Its a pretty deep, convoluted subject
 
I think one vital factor missing here is....cold hard data.
How much more prone to violent behavior, if at all, is a person with a serious mental illness?
There is much bad noise made through the media about people with mental illnesses making all sorts of mayhem. This has associated mental illness with violence in the minds of a great many people, particularly when the word "firearm" is added.

However, many studies show that a serious mental illness alone does little to increase an individuals tendency towards violence. The major contributing factor, the same as "sane" people, is substance abuse and poverty.

M0111a-1.jpg
Percentage of people convicted of at least one violent crime, 1973–2006

Source: Fazel S, et al. Journal of the American Medical Association. May 20, 2009.

M0111a-2.jpg
Percentage of people convicted of at least one violent crime, 1973–2004

Source: Fazel S, et al. Archives of General Psychiatry. September 2010.

Graph taken from Harvard health.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsl...tter/2011/January/mental-illness-and-violence

“When we hear about crimes committed by people with mental illness, they tend to be big headline-making crimes so they get stuck in people’s heads,” said lead researcher Jillian Peterson, PhD. “The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent, not criminal and not dangerous.” ..."The study didn’t find any predictable patterns linking criminal conduct and mental illness symptoms over time. Two-thirds of the offenders who had committed crimes directly related to their mental illness symptoms also had committed unrelated crimes for other reasons, such as poverty, unemployment, homelessness and substance abuse, according to the research. “Is there a small group of people with mental illness committing crimes again and again because of their symptoms? We didn’t find that in this study,” Peterson said."

American psychological institution,
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/mental-illness-crime.aspx

Truly, we need to be looking at treatment options and availability, not restricting the rights of people.
 
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Many people that are not insane/psychotic/crazy have taken anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, etc. If you have quit smoking with the aid of Zyban, Chantix or similar, you are actually taking an anti-anxiety or depressant. The point is, that a case could be made to a jury of idiots that you are crazy.
 
Vern,

What is your point?

Are you saying that it is possible to accurately predict the future behavior of all people that do not have mental illness?

Or are you saying that only mentally ill people commit crimes?

Who can predict other than yourself what you will be eating next Monday and how does what you eat has anyone to do with the topic?
Wow!

Let me be clear. I am saying it is NOT possible to accurately diagnose many mental problems and it is NOT possible to predict behavior.

It is therefore wrong to throw a blanket over everyone who may have a problem and to deny them their rights without due process.
 
I believe the biggest "mental" problem we must deal with is those who have been raised without a conscience. Sociopaths.

In those two graphs above, the control groups do not show what the percentage is with substance abuse. Nothing can be learned form those graphs other than that substance abuse is a mitigating circumstance. Showing the effect of substance abuse on the control group would likely have shown that being bi-polar or schizophrenic is even less of an indicator of a propensity toward violence. Even then, I believe being a sociopath is of the most danger to society.

Woody
 
. Here's a simple solution -- everyone who can vote can bear arms

I would beg to differ on this one. I spent my first few years in the Army as a citizen of Thailand before finally earning my US Citizenship. I think most folks would be surprised at the number of soldiers, sailors and airmen that are non citizens.
 
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