Should we have personal interviews, references, training, etc, for gun licenses?

[gym]

Bat Masterson, Really.
For your information, until the late 60'searly 70's you were able to get a license from your local police precinct. It was handled locally, whey changed it to a central location at 1 PP when they centralized things. when they moved to the new location form the old station sometimes seen on tv shows.
Before that the Captain used to simply write you a license on his business card. It just said I authorize , XXXX to carry a weapon, and would have the phone # of the precinct and the captains name and signature.

 

[Warp]

Your doing it again, just because I debate something doesn't mean that I believe it to be true.

Please stop trolling the thread I started.

If you really want to present this asinine arguments, start a thread for it, okay?

 

[45_auto]

The captain, really.

Before 1911 you didn't need a piece of paper or a business card from some captain, just like today in Arizona, Alaska, etc.

 

[Sam1911]

Your doing it again, just because I debate something doesn't mean that I believe it to be true.

Oh. Well, you've been arguing as though the rest of us are incorrigible dullards for not agreeing with this position ... that you ... apparently? ... don't even support yourself ... after all?

It seems when someone disagrees with you, they are wrong.

Why would I argue a point believing that the other person is RIGHT? Sport? Boredom?

Your interpretation of the 2nd amendment differs with the people who govern NYC. I suggest taking it up with them.

We're working on it. One of "the people who govern NYC" is one of our bitterest enemies at the moment. Perhaps you've heard of Michael Bloomberg?

So you believe you can drive and shoot yourself right into the grave, no matter what the consequences to others might be?

Driving is not a Constitutionally protected right. (And we don't need to get back into that debate again here.) The right to defend one's self with the most effective means necessary is ABSOLUTELY essential. And who else DESERVES the best tools they can wield more than those who are weakest and most vulnerable to attack? You act as though there's been an epidemic of Alzheimer's patients murdering people ... or rather, of average old folks doing so. That's not the case, and if it was that would not justify victimizing all of them to weed out a few.

All it will take is one accident where an elder accidently kills an innocent because of failing health

"All it will take is one..." Yeah, heard that before over and over. It IS NOT TRUE. Gird up your courage, man. We are not so vulnerable as all that.

 

[gym]

I am merely stating fact with opinion. I had a license, you "can get one", is it a good idea for everyone in NYC to have a gun, "no". There are too many people in a confined place with far to many different radical beliefs. It's almost next to impossible to keep a lid on it now, do they need a few million guns thrown into the mix, I think not, that's why they make it so dam hard to get one, but it can be done if you really want it and not just to say you do, and do the work. So maybe you didn't understand what I meant or I didn't say it properly. It would be nice if everyone in NYC was responsible enough to own a gun, the facts are that they aren't, so the make it very hard to get one, an harder to keep it, are there certain things wrong with the way it's done, "yes". For instance you should be allowed to keep it once you get it. That is not the case.
If you sell your business, you have to give up your gun. So there are parts of the many laws governing guns, that I agree with, and some I disagree with. But it's not all that easy to explain when people want to hear only what they want to hear.
They are not going to make it easier to own a gun in NYC. It's too darn risky for those in charge of the public safety to stick their necks out. Too much to lose if someone did shoot a public figure or foreign dignitary. And the constant threat of another terrorist act, and that is where it's most likely to be, so they aren't going to make it easier, at least not in the near future.

 

[Sam1911]

There are too many people in a confined place with far to many different radical beliefs.

Oh? So first it was "learn English, get a driver's license and send your kid to the schools" and now it's "radical beliefs?"

Keep going, you're on a roll! This freedom thing really scares the pants off you doesn't it?

 

[gym]

Don't know where you are going with this Sam? Freedom, what about it? I think you are going to the ends of the earth for no reason. If you want to know more about NYC, Spend some time there. I will be happy to give you a list of places to visit

 

[gym]

That's enough wasted time, if you want to get a NYC carry license, you should have enough information to do that. Other than that we are just going in a a big circle accomplishing nothing. Yes NYC is a crowded melting pot, nothing like Alaska or Arizona, yes 45, the Captain of the Precinct your business was in. anything else speak amongst each other, this is getting downright stupid.

 

[silicosys4]

That's enough wasted time, if you want to get a NYC carry license, you should have enough information to do that. Other than that we are just going in a a big circle accomplishing nothing. Yes NYC is a crowded melting pot, nothing like Alaska or Arizona, yes 45, the Captain of the Precinct your business was in. anything else speak amongst each other, this is getting downright stupid.

Oh New York, you so special!
I seriously hate it when "New Yahkahs" speak with that kind of attitude..."I'm from NEW YORK....you just wouldn't understand"....and unfortunately you seem to have based your argument on exactly that premise...damn the information and statistics, you don't live here so you just don't understand.

Can you show us some statistics that support your assertions that a concentration of financial institutions, a concentration of people, or a concentration of traffic leads people to behave in more savage and barbaric ways than they do in lesser concentrations? I don't see any substantiation, other than your feeeeeelings that it must be so because you feeeel like that's how things would go...and there is no data to my knowledge that suggests that your feeeeelings are correct.

You do realize that there is nothing that happens in new york that doesn't happen in many many other metropolitan areas around the country, right? Phoenix isn't a large city full of multicultural influences? Think Alaska doesn't have its fair share of weirdos and people of questionable moral fiber? Heck, Alaska is the final destination for people looking to get away from "inquisitive persons".
New York is not special or different. Get over it.

 

[tnelson31]

I think reading into the details of the posts in this thread, and critically thinking about them, highlight well the concept of societal rules and government law.

Thank God (just a saying) we have the Bill of Rights.

 

[gym]

I don't live in NY silicosis, But yes it is different than any other city. It's a much faster pace, and totally different than anyplace else. It never sleeps and runs the worlds financial transactions by people who live in a different world that you or I.
With 1000 dollar bottles of wine with lunch, to 20 million dollar apartments, with private jets, to people sleeping in the doorway, There is no place else like it.
Your comparisons are weak at best. You can't compare those places to NYC, there just is no way to measure the differences. If you are comparing Alaska with NY we really did go off the rails. Most people in certain areas of the country don't like New Yorkers nothing new, same old story.

 

[Sam1911]

Don't know where you are going with this Sam? Freedom, what about it? I think you are going to the ends of the earth for no reason. If you want to know more about NYC, Spend some time there. I will be happy to give you a list of places to visit

I'm going to the ends of the earth? By bringing up the Constitution and the rights it enumerates as applicable EQUALLY to all, regardless of what part of the country you live in?

Golly, I should spend some time in NYC and then I'd understand? Where do you get your unique perspective? There are many of us who've spent a fair bit of time in that city ... shocking to say, myself included ... and feel it would be BETTER if the chains on all the people there were loosened so that the good people didn't have so much harder a time being well defended than the BAD people enjoy already.

And that seems to be a fundamental disconnect (well, one of several) that you just don't comprehend. You're thinking and talking a lot, but not listening well.

New York City is NOT some special case of human society where the rules and principles we hold dear and believe in so strongly simply don't apply. Your analysis is WRONG. Your vision is clouded, confused, distracted by the bright lights I guess, and by your own fears which now clearly rule you.

We refute, completely, your assertion that some peoples (peoples, not some individuals) cannot be trusted with the freedoms we endorse for all peoples.

It's one of the founding principles of this forum and of the RKBA movement.

 

[Warp]

NYC.

Going forward, I would prefer this thread be on the topic of everywhere except NYC.

 

[steelerdude99]

I don't live in NY silicosis, But yes it is different than any other city. ...

This thread took a NY shift since this morning.

Yes it is different there in NYC, but to say any sort of carry will never not work is just not true. It would take a culture change on behalf of citizens and law enforcement to make it work there because it has been the way it has been for many years. Besides, I don't see the NYC/NY state government deciding the best way to fix something is by less regulation and/or laws. After 9/11 it really took an uptick by suspecting anyone and everyone in an effort call anything that can be dangerous as actually dangerous. Basically the potential to commit a crime becomes a crime.

Bottom line, it is illegal in all states to murder someone and it’s illegal for felons to have firearms.

chuck

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've travelled to NYC. I guess I am missing what is so different about it that what works in the other top 10 major metroplex areas won't work there?

 

[barnbwt]

"Going forward, I would prefer this thread be on the topic of everywhere except NYC."

Sorry, but the 'tude emanates from well beyond NYC, as we now know. It's also particularly caustic coming from people who ostensibly claim to share the same mindset as liberty-minded gunrights proponents, but who in fact are just as conflicted and flatly wrong about the issue as the anti's.

Lots of folks from outside developed areas --perhaps especially rural areas-- really do think that certain folk should not be allowed guns, nor a whole host of other basic rights. It's not even a racial thing so much as a rural/urban thing to be honest, though it tends to manifest itself most obviously that way.

"And that seems to be a fundamental disconnect (well, one of several) that you just don't comprehend. You're thinking and talking a lot, but not listening well."
He's in the throes of Cognitive Dissonance, and it is not a very fun place to be. Perhaps the best move for Gym is to disengage and think about & modify his argument (perhaps in the direction of free-ownership) for a little while before returning. My 'responses' are thus not directed toward Gym so much as the points of argument themselves, since all are quite common among our opposition

"It's a much faster pace, and totally different than anyplace else."
It costs more to live there, ergo it's "different." Absent evidence the people there are actually stupider or less capable of making their own decisions than the "savages" outside the towers, I can't cede this point. The earlier statement about how many people flow into Manhattan from outside areas (which by definition are 'anyplace else') directly contradicts this line of reason.

"It never sleeps and runs the worlds financial transactions by people who live in a different world that you or I.
With 1000 dollar bottles of wine with lunch, to 20 million dollar apartments, with private jets, to people sleeping in the doorway, There is no place else like it."
Not one of those things has anything to do with firearms, let alone human rights. "There's no place like NYC" is a non-argument that could just as easily be construed to mean "There's no place as unjustly/poorly governed as NYC" (and could in fact be argued as such quite effectively). NYC's resistance to trusting its citizens is rooted solely in ancient anti-immigrant sentiment that is now centuries old and applies to everyone. Sounds like the logic put forth on this forum is as well.

"Most people in certain areas of the country don't like New Yorkers nothing new, same old story."
Closer to the truth is that many New Yorkers don't like any of the rest of the country; hence the 'tude.

"Can you show us some statistics that support your assertions that a concentration of financial institutions, a concentration of people, or a concentration of traffic leads people to behave in more savage and barbaric ways than they do in lesser concentrations?"
To be fair, Hobbes would posit that this is the case when resources are more scarce, as they are in a city with high endemic poverty, segregation, unemployment, and their attendant problems. Why that is the case in a city as verdant as New York...is beyond the scope of this forum. The only reason NYC has tamed a bit in recent decades is due to strikingly authoritarian tactics by the law enforcement structure (declaring 'war' on large chunks of the populace and targeting them for harassment certainly qualifies, even if it is effective; no one ever said authoritarians aren't effective)

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

"Phoenix isn't a large city full of multicultural influences?"
Many people back East still think Texans are lynching, dueling over honor, and carry six guns on their hips, sooo.... Put it this way; I've had someone tell me Austin is a cultural backwater compared to Cincinnati. And that Austin had nothing on Kansas City's downtown. I'm not an Austin snob (nor even particularly care for the place), but such perceptions are laughable.

"And the constant threat of another terrorist act, and that is where it's most likely to be, so they aren't going to make it easier, at least not in the near future."
Where was this terror from 1950-1990 (or today)? Why were the skyscrapers not required to be built to withstand nuclear blasts, or windows ported for machine guns and snipers in case of invasion? Because NYC would be the first target of a tactical nuclear strike by any nation on the planet. I also fail to see what lawfully carried pistols have to do with planes flying into buildings or bomb-throwing Islamic fascists, other than that they might complicate things for the perpetrators. Reference the Mumbai attacks for what happens when foxes find their way into the henhouse.

"I am merely stating fact with opinion. I had a license, you "can get one" [those people can't...]"
Win-win, right?

"There are too many people in a confined place with far to many different radical beliefs. It's almost next to impossible to keep a lid on it now"
So much freedom, it's almost sickening

"do they need a few million guns thrown into the mix, I think not"
Well too bad; they're already there, and "they" already have them

"that's why they make it so dam hard to get one"
LOL, you must be trolling

"So maybe you didn't understand what I meant or I didn't say it properly"
Loud and clear.

"It would be nice if everyone in NYC was responsible enough to own a gun, the facts are that they aren't, so they make it very hard to get one, and harder to keep it"
Awful lotta faith in this nebulous "they," don't you think? Who is "they," and what are their motivations? Is "they" the same people as the ones that can't be trusted with guns? Why trust their opinion, then? And if "they" isn't you, you'd be a fool not to question their intentions.

"are there certain things wrong with the way it's done, "yes". For instance you should be allowed to keep it once you get it. That is not the case."
But they make it hard to keep for your own good (see immediately preceding quote)

"But it's not all that easy to explain when people want to hear only what they want to hear."
It's actually pretty simple if you aren't trying to outfox your fellow humans through public policy. It's worth noting that the vast volume of discussion here has been to refute your myriad, Hydra-like rationalizations, rather than to advance our own (I've seen like three different kinds of argument from the pro-rights side; none of which hinge upon New Yorker's special arrogance)

"They are not going to make it easier to own a gun in NYC. It's too darn risky for those in charge of the public safety to stick their necks out."
Your leaders have covered their rears so thoroughly they're now sitting on you. They will most certainly not give up their seat willingly, but luckily the rest of us are working on your behalf to upset the palanquin.

"Too much to lose if someone did shoot a public figure or foreign dignitary."
They'll have bullet proof suits and armed guards if they have that many enemies. Somehow the president can survive outside the DC bubble and even the United States. Real-deal terrorists and hitmen will always find a way, and will for sure not use legal (discoverable) channels --reference the guys hooked up with Senator Yee of California (Newark Port Authority is in deep with overseas Islamic terrorists, apparently; how's that for close to home?)

"Your doing it again, just because I debate something doesn't mean that I believe it to be true. I am merely explaining why NYC will never have a carry license for everyone, and what you need to do in order to get one..."
This so incoherent I can only assume you were suffering some cognitive dissonance (your own arguments were no longer making sense to you) and you made up some explanation to allow your exit from the discussion. It's a very common refrain for an anonymous poster who feels cornered to exclaim we all "just misunderstood where you came from and now we can all get along." You were most definitely not 'merely explaining why NYC will never have a carry license;' you were trying to convince us why they should not have such freedom there. So doggedly, that I do not buy the 'subtle troll' line you're peddling; nice try though (trolls don't get frustrated; just elated )

"I am just trying to play devils advocate here, apparently you will never understand this. Manhattan is not Texas."
A Devil's Advocate would not argue such a phony point. There is no purpose in doing so. A method actor, maybe... The purpose of Devil's advocacy is to reveal holes in an argument so as to strengthen them; you've just been bumping to the most armored, familiar points of all. See the 'insurance' forum for a better example of Devil's Advocacy, where legitimate cost savings from banning guns are stacked against value-less individual freedoms by profit-seeking entities. That's a tough argument we need to work on; not 'proving' that NY'ers see themselves differently or have a warped view of gunownership. Which is why I don't buy that that was the goal.

It's alright to change your views through debate, though; I used to believe 9mm handgun manufacture should be forbidden since those were the means to so much violence in America.

TCB

 

[gym]

People don't shoot there, it's that simple, there are no ranges or gun stores. You are not listening. Unless some have opened since I left, there were no ranges in NYC, and 1 Gun store downtown by 1 PP. No interest no guns. Nothing other to say than if people have no interest in something then they don't miss it, those who do, have to travel out of the city to shoot.I can't keep up with you guys, I am not going to attempt to try and answer one guy when 2 more are asking a totally different question. I lived there for 46 years had 5 businesses there and think I know more about it than you who never lived there. I fear nothing Sam, I have lived through more than you could ever imagine, so preach to your choir but not too me.
I have spent over 30 years on those streets and never worried about myself or feared any man. I was in Harlem when they burned it to the ground, both times, shootings, carjacking's, and just about every crazy situation one could imagine. So please don't tell me about me. . I went to work the day I had the home invasion, after an hour of being worked over, sound like I scare easily?
You can't interest people in something they have been told is bad, and that is the case with middle class couples in NYC about guns. Guns are bad according to the average New Yorker, unless they are blue collar and hunt, which in NYC proper are becoming few and far between, when you have no place to shoot. What are they going to do with a gun? You have to drive 2 hours to fire it.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I've travelled to NYC. I guess I am missing what is so different about it that what works in the other top 10 major metroplex areas won't work there?

Must be the lack of sleep from all those financial transactions, the noise from all those private jets, $1000 bottles of wine and the 20 million dollar apts.

Jesus, get over yourself gym. NYC isn't any different than Chicago or LA. Yes I've been to all three. Been to London, Madrid and Rabat too. Big cities are all the same. I lived in Morocco for 2 years. Firearms were prohibited to the general public. I shot skeet every week with a Colonel in the Moroccan air force who was a personal friend of the king. Only the well connected could own a firearm, just like NYC.

 

[Warp]

People don't shoot there, it's that simple, there are no ranges or gun stores.

Given the extremely repressive laws that effectively disarm the majority of people, and effectively render firearms some people can legally acquire all but useless...well, duh.

The laws have effectively shut off the demand for such things.

And although I don't know (and frankly don't give a damn), I'll bet there are legal hurdles preventing people from just up and opening gun stores or ranges there anyway.

 

[Doc7]

Bravo to Sam1911 and the other posters in this thread for stating what EVERY PERSON who subscribes to THR should understand. Regardless of your views on pistols vs revolvers, clips vs magazines, Black vs Wood... Every person alive lucky enough to be born as an American is protected by the same Constitution and should have their rights violently protected by their fellow man, including the elected officials who serve them.

To profess that NYC would be a more dangerous place if the law abiding citizens were allowed to carry firearms (and insinuate it would lead to acts of terrorism and political assassinations) is to profess a distrust of the American as a conceptual being. The same distrust that many in elected offices apparently hold nowadays.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

People don't shoot there, it's that simple, there are no ranges or gun stores. You are not listening. Unless some have opened since I left, there were no ranges in NYC, and 1 Gun store downtown by 1 PP. No interest no guns

So why would we want to adopt the same regulatory scheme for shooting nationwide that eliminated shooting as a sport in NYC?

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Sorry, didn't read all the threads. However, I will bet you whatever you like that I can easily set up a "reasonable" system which will prevent the person who thinks this is a good idea from having a firearm.

You can't make a person show ID to prove who they are to vote but then want a pound of flesh from me to exercise my RIGHT.

Can't guy cigarettes nor beer either without an ID, but you can still vote.
Wonder why that is.

Yet, those same people want "reasonable" things done to us.

No, I don't think so.

Now back to the guy who thinks this is a good idea. When I was younger and more foolish I also thought some restrictions were OK. However, having watched the left in this country for a long time now I see they will NEVER stop till you have nothing left but maybe one SxS shotgun.

Do NOT give an inch in this fight. Read your history books if you don't want to listen to anyone living.

 

[barnbwt]

"Given the extremely repressive laws that effectively disarm the majority of people, and effectively render firearms some people can legally acquire all but useless...well, duh."
Not to mention their incremental growth over decades and generations.

Unless some have opened since I left, there were no ranges in NYC, and 1 Gun store downtown by 1 PP. No interest no guns.

Riddle me this; how would you buy a gun if you were interested, then? Oh, it's "possible" if you put up with myriad red tape, a sickening invasion of privacy, and enormous expense --but why would you?

"You can have it any color you like, so long as it's black"
Henry Ford didn't believe there was much demand for bright car colors, either

"I'll bet there are legal hurdles preventing people from just up and opening gun stores or ranges there anyway."
*shocked* Nooooooo... Of course you can't open them, otherwise they'd be booming there; curiosity if nothing else. There wouldn't be gun tourism out in the boonies, otherwise.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

"To profess that NYC would be a more dangerous place if the law abiding citizens were allowed to carry firearms (and insinuate it would lead to acts of terrorism and political assassinations) is to profess a distrust of the American as a conceptual being. The same distrust that many in elected offices apparently hold nowadays."
It is important to note that such trust is the only reason our revolution was not followed by a bloody despotism. What kind of idiot victors cede their hard-won authority back to the people?

TCB