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DKSDonnie
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Yea it did it to a case, pretty funny looking. Shoulder and neck disappeared right down into the case. LOL
Shoulder Bumping
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JimKirk
Member
DKSDonnie ...
If you will look at this image ... Figure Y(Dimension Y) is normally 0.125" from the top of the shell holder to the deck the brass sits on.(This does as most know varies even within the same brand & between different brands shellholders ... BUT the industry standard is 0.125").
What Redding does ... Is to cut the "deck" height deeper(Dimension Y) into the shellholder ... +.002", +.004", +.006", +.008" & +.010"
Dimension Y on the Competition Shell Holders become ...
0.125" + .002" = 0.127"
0.125" + .004" = 0.129"
0.125" + .006" = 0.131"
0.125" + .008" = 0.133"
0.125" + .010" = 0.135"
So if You use the Competition Shell Holder ... Your brass is NOT going farther up in the die, but is being pushed LESS into the die ...
The Guy in the Video You posted said he started out with the +0.10"(0.135") SH ... so his brass is being push LESS into the die ... he then moves to a smaller Dimension (Y) SH until his bolt closes with less resistance ...
What he is doing ... is working back towards the Standard dimension of 0.125"
By using the .010" his brass from base to datum line is longer .... If he uses a +.004 instead of the +.010 ... his brass will be shorter than if he uses the +.010...
I hopefully this helps understand the Redding Competition Shell Holders ... I also know it does nothing to help with your die problem ...
If you will look at this image ... Figure Y(Dimension Y) is normally 0.125" from the top of the shell holder to the deck the brass sits on.(This does as most know varies even within the same brand & between different brands shellholders ... BUT the industry standard is 0.125").
What Redding does ... Is to cut the "deck" height deeper(Dimension Y) into the shellholder ... +.002", +.004", +.006", +.008" & +.010"
Dimension Y on the Competition Shell Holders become ...
0.125" + .002" = 0.127"
0.125" + .004" = 0.129"
0.125" + .006" = 0.131"
0.125" + .008" = 0.133"
0.125" + .010" = 0.135"
So if You use the Competition Shell Holder ... Your brass is NOT going farther up in the die, but is being pushed LESS into the die ...
The Guy in the Video You posted said he started out with the +0.10"(0.135") SH ... so his brass is being push LESS into the die ... he then moves to a smaller Dimension (Y) SH until his bolt closes with less resistance ...
What he is doing ... is working back towards the Standard dimension of 0.125"
By using the .010" his brass from base to datum line is longer .... If he uses a +.004 instead of the +.010 ... his brass will be shorter than if he uses the +.010...
I hopefully this helps understand the Redding Competition Shell Holders ... I also know it does nothing to help with your die problem ...
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DKSDonnie
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Yes sir, I get. Thank You Much. As he goes down in size he will shorten the base to datum line measurement which in turn is basically pushing the brass further up into the die thus pushing the shoulder back until he gets the clearance he wants. Like I said, in another reply, this tool can be used instead of shaving shellholders or shaving the bottom of a die. You have to push the casing further up into the die to bump the shoulder back. If you don't push it further up into the die you will never bump the shoulder back. Hence, when everyone talks about screwing your down at 1/4 turn increments and using camover. All the screwing down of the die further and camover does is take the flex of the press out of the equation. My problem is no matter what I do with the die or shellholders my Lee die will not bump the shoulders back at all. In fact, they actually grow from .001 to .0015 after sizing.
JimKirk
Member
No ... The Redding Competition shell holders can NOT be used instead of trimming the die or shell holder to get shorter brass. ... Not over what a Standard shell holder would do 0.125" . .
Go back and re-read and look at the drawing ...
Go back and re-read and look at the drawing ...
FROGO207
Member
If your die/shell holder combo is already sizing the brass too long the only thing those shell holders can do is size the shoulder shorter from the fully expanded/fired size to the already too long size by those steps. To get to the root of your problem you have to make the combo size the case shorter than the full length resized length (already too long) by removing some of either the die bottom or the top of the shell holder so the brass is sized shorter than needed in the first place. Then you can adjust the amount of bump to end up where you want it to be by adjusting the die out or using those stepped shell holders.
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DKSDonnie
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Ty. That's what I thought.
oldfortyfiveauto
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I just noticed this topic....I've run into these issues with my 25 WSM and 308 surplus (probably went through a wore out machine-gun.) I have taken up to .020" off shell holders to bring the shoulder back where they belonged. The WSM family is noted for spring back issues.
I have found that if a rifle has the headspace set to minimum dimensions,they seem to be a little more accurate and they are also much easier on the brass.I have two rifles that I set the headspace very tight.One is a 223,the other is a 25-06.The bolts on both won't quite close on the go gauge.I usually neck size and can go 5 or more loadings without any problems closing the bolt.When I do full length size them,I have shell holders that have each had .001 taken off the top of them to let the case go into the die one thousandth farther.If the rifle in question were to have a minimum chamber datum line measurement,and the die was at the maximum measurement it would be possible to have difficulty bumping the shoulder back enough.I would be very concerned if I were to shoot a factory load in the rifle and not be able to rechamber the empty once fired case.Something deeper and more sinister is going on.A crooked bolt face has already been mentioned,and I think locking lugs that aren't well fitted to the action could also be a factor.Maybe take a hard look at the wear/contact pattern on the locking lugs on the bolt to make sure things are square.If only 1 locking lug was making good contact with the action,you can get what you're getting.This could be exacerbated by the relatively fat head of the WSM.The die may not be the problem at all.The lugs may need lapped and/or the bolt face may need trued up.
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DKSDonnie
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The more I read you are correct. Springback is a big issue with many WSM owners.
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DKSDonnie
Member
Okay Gentlemen, First off, I would like to thank all of you that took the time to help me with this problem. I have now fixed the problem. I received my FORSTER FL DIE from Midway today so I set it up according to FORSTER instructions and adjusted the die until I got it to bump the shoulders with no problems. No buckles in the cases and the expander ball (Which is designed differently than the LEE DIE) pulled thru the cases much more smoothly. I sized 4 shells and not one grew more than its original measurement of 1.7560. I sized each case and bumped the shoulders back until I got a completely free bolt. I hunt with all my guns so I wanted reliability. I had to bump them from 1.7560 to 1.7525 to get that free bolt feel. They were just a little snug at 1.7530. I didn't have use feelers gauges, shave shellholders or shave the bottom of the die. It worked like it should. now I'm going to find Forster FL Die for my 7MM WSM because it has the same problem. Again, thanks for the help and the education.
1stmarine
Member
like others said make sure the expander button doesn't go too deep and if you continue to have issues consider
a custom shell holder or simply buy an inexpensive one and shave a few thousands. The die needs to stop at the shell holder where you need it.
you could have a tight chamber that will eventually loose up a bit assuming also you don't have other chamber issues as others pointed out.
The best thing is to compare the shells after fire forming and after FL sizing using a gauge. Take a 5 or 10 average.
The measures within cartridge tolerances will all tell you if the chamber and/or dies might be off but is probably just a tight chamber with
little room for FL brass tolerances.
Good luck.
a custom shell holder or simply buy an inexpensive one and shave a few thousands. The die needs to stop at the shell holder where you need it.
you could have a tight chamber that will eventually loose up a bit assuming also you don't have other chamber issues as others pointed out.
The best thing is to compare the shells after fire forming and after FL sizing using a gauge. Take a 5 or 10 average.
The measures within cartridge tolerances will all tell you if the chamber and/or dies might be off but is probably just a tight chamber with
little room for FL brass tolerances.
Good luck.
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badkarmamib
Member
Glad to hear that things are going better, sounds like you are on track for success. Still might have some tweaking to do, but overall, you should be able to make some loads that your rifles will like.
Nice. Glad the new die worked out.
I had the same problem with my.270WSM. I sent 4 fired brass, dies and shell holder back to RCBS. They sent them back to me, said there was no problem. I set the dies up AGAIN, reloads still hard to chamber. Bought a set of Hornady LNL headspace gauges. I was not getting my shoulders set back either. I took .007 off the top of my shell holder. I didn't want to change my die dimensions. With the slightest cam over these same dies now set the shoulder back to unfired brass dimensions. End of problem for me
I'd rather take the material off of the die if needed. If you do mod the shell holder mark it in some way (-.007 would be good), because it will carry that mod with it to any die used, sizers being the most critical..
JimKirk
Member
Here is a really good use case for the Redding Competition Shell holders ....
I have a Browning A-Bolt in .25/06 ... It replaced a Winchester Model 70 that was stolen ... It has what I call a generous chamber ... In length ... every other dimension is within the limits....
It would snap one out of every ten factory loads ... I almost returned the rifle to Browning ... But it shot really really well for an out the box rifle. 3/4" was easy . ...
At the time I had a RCBS Rock Chucker press .... I figured out that I could back the die out of the press and make it shoot 100% using my reloads ... I also knew that the die needed to be square with the press ... so I picked up a machine washer with both sides machined to square the die ...
I shot quite a lot of ammo ... Killed many deer using it ... I got a set of the Redding shell holders and used it If I remember right the +.008 to make ammo that worked perfect in the A-Bolt ....
I later sold the Rockchucker and since I did not need the shell holders ... I parted with they also ... the CoAx is self centering and I had no need for them ....
But the whole point is ... The Redding Competition shell holder allowed me to make the longer brass needed to headspace correctly for the chamber my gun has ... still does, but the barrel is getting to the end of it's life .... They can not be used to make shorter than normal ammo over a "standard" shell holder ...
I have a Browning A-Bolt in .25/06 ... It replaced a Winchester Model 70 that was stolen ... It has what I call a generous chamber ... In length ... every other dimension is within the limits....
It would snap one out of every ten factory loads ... I almost returned the rifle to Browning ... But it shot really really well for an out the box rifle. 3/4" was easy . ...
At the time I had a RCBS Rock Chucker press .... I figured out that I could back the die out of the press and make it shoot 100% using my reloads ... I also knew that the die needed to be square with the press ... so I picked up a machine washer with both sides machined to square the die ...
I shot quite a lot of ammo ... Killed many deer using it ... I got a set of the Redding shell holders and used it If I remember right the +.008 to make ammo that worked perfect in the A-Bolt ....
I later sold the Rockchucker and since I did not need the shell holders ... I parted with they also ... the CoAx is self centering and I had no need for them ....
But the whole point is ... The Redding Competition shell holder allowed me to make the longer brass needed to headspace correctly for the chamber my gun has ... still does, but the barrel is getting to the end of it's life .... They can not be used to make shorter than normal ammo over a "standard" shell holder ...
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DKSDonnie
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Glad they worked for you because they wouldn't do what I needed them to do because my understanding of how they worked was totally wrong and I have you to thank for that. I will sell mine beings they are brand new. Only problem is they only fit the WSM's I think so they're mine. I'll have to check.
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DKSDonnie
Member
If everything was OK, why didn't they bumped your shoulders back with an explanation of what to do to make it work properly. Noone wants to do any "Service after the sale" anymore. Sometimes, if you're lucky, you'll find a company or a rep that gives a ****. Unless you have a real tight chamber, setting the shoulders back to factory ammo sizes will shorten the life of your brass. Factory ammo is more than generous usually with being under SAAMI specs. That is what I understand to cause premature head separation. Just a thought. How far are you having to bump the shoulders back to get them back to factory ammo.
The Redding Competition shell holders only allow you to make the shoulder location longer than normal.
To test a die when you think it is too long internally remove the decapper.
Then lube a case well to reduce friction to a minimum without denting the shoulder.
Set the die hard against your standard shell holder with the press well loaded.
Size your case with a 3 to 5 second dwell at the top of the stroke. The dwell is important to allow the brass time to creep to its final size and location. Check the shoulder location. No good?
Check the lube film and size again with a 5 second dwell. Lower the ram enough to spin the case and size it again with a dwell. Repeat 4 or 5 times. You can even release the pressure on the ram and reapply by pumping the press handle repeatedly.
Finally after sizing the case a multitude of times check the shoulder location.
If the multiple sized case still does not chamber it is never going to chamber with that die unless you modify the die.
Otherwise you need another die that is short enough to work.
To test a die when you think it is too long internally remove the decapper.
Then lube a case well to reduce friction to a minimum without denting the shoulder.
Set the die hard against your standard shell holder with the press well loaded.
Size your case with a 3 to 5 second dwell at the top of the stroke. The dwell is important to allow the brass time to creep to its final size and location. Check the shoulder location. No good?
Check the lube film and size again with a 5 second dwell. Lower the ram enough to spin the case and size it again with a dwell. Repeat 4 or 5 times. You can even release the pressure on the ram and reapply by pumping the press handle repeatedly.
Finally after sizing the case a multitude of times check the shoulder location.
If the multiple sized case still does not chamber it is never going to chamber with that die unless you modify the die.
Otherwise you need another die that is short enough to work.
quest4perfection
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- Apr 10, 2016
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Had this happen once. Used a full length body die to reach very close to the bottom of the webbing, since they had been fired many times. Fixed problem. Didn't alter shoulder or neck.
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