Show some love for the South American Pistolas

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Steel is graded, ya know, no matter if you're in Switzerland or BFE. It has standard grades world wide. I'm no metallurgist, but what don't ya back up your "bad steel" claims with the grades they actually use? If you're going to say they all use "bad steel", that don't mean a thing to me.

High Point doesn't even USE steel in the frame! It uses POT METAL, more properly zinc alloy, so I find it strange that a guy that thinks Bersa uses "bad steel" would go for a pot metal gun. :rolleyes:
 
This thread has some really silly posts in it...

On topic, I shoot a Bersa UC .45 in stainless and it's as fine a weapon as any I own.

I also have the usual assortment of Mak, PA63, Glock, S&W, Kel-Tec etc...
 
I don't own a Bersa and, in fact, I've never fired one. I just get tired of perpetual bashers, especially when their arguments are so flawed. I've never actually heard the "bad steel" argument on anything, but Chinese imports, and heck, I've owned and fired two Norinco SKSs for 20 years, so it don't make sense even there!
 
But, finishing does not mean strength of steel even if what you say is true. Finish, like painting a car, is a product of preparation as much as anything else. Travel whatever road you want, but I can voice my opinions, too, ya know. I've been shooting for 50 years now and have formed a few opinions in that time. For now, probably not for long, I have freedom of speech. Shoot what ya want and I'll shoot what I want.

I do own 6 Brazilian guns and find them all worthy of ownership. They are all good shooters. I own lots of Rugers, they get bashed for their investment casting which I also find ridiculous. I own a Smith M10 and have owned a M19 and M1917 and while I liked 'em and particularly like that old M10, I don't find them that superior to my Taurus 66s. In fact, my 4" 66 out shoots any of those Smiths. It will group 1" at 25 yards off the sand bags with its favorite loads. None of the Smiths would/will do that well, not quite. I do sort of prefer accurate guns and those I've kept over the years have this one thing in common for the most part. In one way or another, their accuracy has impressed me, within the category of the gun at least. I reckon there are a few I can't say that about, but out of 25 handguns, there WILL be exceptions. :D
 
Doc Glock said:
Have you ever noticed that if you say something negative about a Bersa or a 1911 they come at you from all angles like you are a leper. Hey guys, we all don't have to like the same guns.
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Look buddy, if you make blanket insults about a platform many people love and trust their lives too with little evidence to back it up, they're going to refute you. The thread title is about liking South American pistols, and you came in and dumped all over them. What did you think was going to happen?
 
First off, no one attacked you personally. People merely refuted your ideas.

Secondly, I wear panties strictly for comfort. Don't be fooled by my frilly undies, I'm all man.

Third, how exactly is anything in this thread omniscient? Are you implying that myself and others are somehow all-knowing.

Fourth, how do you know so much about the molecular structure of SA steel? I'm legitimately curious. Do you have extensive experience using a mass spectrometer or a nuclear magnetic resonance imager?
 
Steel is an alloy derived from a process; not a raw material.

Different processes can be used which produce various qualities; cast vs forged for example.

As with everything manufactured, it is the QC of the combined processes/process techniques and the raw materials used that determine quality; not its location of origin.
 
My Taurus PT917C has been perfect in over 2k rounds and is one of my fav auto's
The Rossi broke the firing pin twice and I sold it but the Taurus has been 100 percent reliable.
The Rossi had a great DA pull too which is really to bad the the weak link was the pin because for 230 bucks it was a great buy....sold it to fund SP101
which is my fav snub now.
EVERYBODY should have a SP101....the more you shoot it the smoother it gets.
My Bersa 380 which had gone 1k rounds is now jamming and I have to figure out whats wrong with it....it went from 100 perent to jam every mag now....
May have to sent it back to Bersa.
 
Glock Doc said - Care to elaborate or shall we just speculate some more!
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Ahhh... dont be too dismissive too soon please.

Sure, Id love to elborate.

Iron in its most pure form is listed in the perodic table of elements as "Fe". When its mined, it is not in its more pure form. There are other minerals and impuities that have attached to it.

Like oxygen (periodic symbol "O") there are different levels of purities and grades. Theres welding grade oxygen... and there is medical grade oxygen... as two examples.

If you prefer wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore is a good place to start. It explains iron purity and what other elements are typical to have bonded with it by the time the iron ore is mined.

It terms of purifying iron ore http://www.surfacechemistrynews.com/improving-the-iron-ore-quality-by-flotation/ is a fairly simple read. It says in part:

To meet this growth the mining industry invests in both new production capacity and in processes to improve the quality of the Iron ore concentrate (magnetite/hematite).

Low grade iron ores has to be processed to a certain level of iron grade to meet the requirements from the steel producers.

Magnetic separation is used in the concentrating process of magnetite. There is always a mineralogical limit which sets the possible maximum iron grade; this differs between ores from different deposits. In many cases magnetic separation is not enough to give the wanted quality of iron ore concentrate.

Silica and phosphorus are the two most important impurities to be reduced. Especially phosphorus has to be reduced to a very low level.

Flotation is a well known technique which gives the opportunity to get further purification. Silicates are removed with cationic surfactants and anionic surfactants are used for the removal of phosphorus minerals.


No speculation needed... the facts should be enough.
 
Quote:
And as far as "getting what you pay for in this world," my buddy has a Harley Davidson he bought for $16k that's in the shop all the time (he's probably spent another $16k in maintenance). While my 2003 Suzuki Volusia (purchased used in 2006 for $5k) just gets regular oil changes and has never let me down. I guess my experiences are unusual..
Yeah, it was shovel heads in the late 70s that broke me of that belief years ago. If all you go by is cost of the product, heck, you're a sucker for a scam. It was also HD that broke me of any tendency to wave the flag and "buy American". I buy what works for me, thanks. Besides, HD doesn't make anything I really like and Buell went belly up for a reason.
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Interesting, as I anticipate yet another flawless ride with my wife on my 34 year old shovel this evening. If anyone has one of this machines still with factory QC issues I would suspect they have the wrong mechanic. If anyone has a 34 year old Suzie I'd be interested in seeing it. I for one am not so closed minded I couldn't appreciate it regardless of lineage.
 
There you go again inserting words and spinning. I never mentioned the STRENGTH of the steel. As I recall, I only stated Quality as to molecular structure in bringing up a good blue surface.
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Well, heck, I don't worry about looks that much. Strength is important. My 66s are good lookin' guns, though. Well, one of 'em is nickel finished. They have a slightly stronger design in the forcing cone area than my K frames, round forcing cone, no flat. I like that.

BTW, off topic reversion to eastern block guns discussion, but I shot the P64 with the new Marschel grips on it today, 50 rounds and my hand doesn't hurt. Those grips help with the felt recoil quite a bit. 50 bucks well spent and they're very nicely grained walnut which is pleasant to look at.
 
I think Springfield Armory guns are forged frames and slides from Brazil, and assembled and finished here.
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Four Bersa/Firestorms here and the only problems I ever had was that the .22 was a little finicky when new, now I use Minimags and no problems.
My fullsize T9 has over 5K through it, so I seriously doubt anyone's claims of "soft metal" that never seem to be backed by any proof. Also, 1K of the rnds through the T9 were with no cleaning or lube, so the reliability is there.
 
Don't you guys know better than to expect actual conversation here? So, what, pray tell, makes the steel of Russia and now Switzerland, so much better? That it will take bluing? A form of controlled rusting? My, that's much more important than the ultimate strength of the material, right?

High-Point uses Zamak in their construction. Not steel. So, why is that better than South American steel?

I still haven't seen anything but overall statements from you. Nothing has been supported by factual, information.

The article about the 9x18 sub-machinegun ammunition is by Peter Kokalis this time, and was in the August 1, 2006 issue of Shotgun News. He isn't selling anything, either.

FYI, while nobody, 20 years ago, liked the Norinco 1911 clones, time has proven their metal to be extremely durable. They are accepted by some of the best regarded gunsmiths around as suitable for a build.

All in all, after this many pages, I cannot find anything substantial to the claim that South American guns are poorly fitted, or made of inferior steel. If that's your opinion, so be it. However, nothing proves it.
 
JR47 said:
Don't you guys know better than to expect actual conversation here? So, what, pray tell, makes the steel of Russia and now Switzerland, so much better? That it will take bluing? A form of controlled rusting? My, that's much more important than the ultimate strength of the material, right?

High-Point uses Zamak in their construction. Not steel. So, why is that better than South American steel?

I still haven't seen anything but overall statements from you. Nothing has been supported by factual, information.

The article about the 9x18 sub-machinegun ammunition is by Peter Kokalis this time, and was in the August 1, 2006 issue of Shotgun News. He isn't selling anything, either.

FYI, while nobody, 20 years ago, liked the Norinco 1911 clones, time has proven their metal to be extremely durable. They are accepted by some of the best regarded gunsmiths around as suitable for a build.

All in all, after this many pages, I cannot find anything substantial to the claim that South American guns are poorly fitted, or made of inferior steel. If that's your opinion, so be it. However, nothing proves it.
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After perusing the autoloaders forum it seems that nonsense in this thread is not an isolated phenomenon. By the way Sharps Dressed Man I'm digging those grips on the Springer
 
Doc, there's inexpensive and then there's cheap.

My own firearm is one many would consider junk being as some call it a "KT knock-off"....but...tighter patterns than the 3-4 Glock 26s I've tried out, takes any ammo I throw at it, even oddball stuff like jacketed semi-wadcutter 9mm (long story...).

The only thing I have to gripe about really is the pistol chews through guide rod assemblies every 400rds, but with the guide rods being free (call and they'll ship you one), no problems there. That's the same thing that people are complaining about on a particular $900 subomcpact 9mm....except it's gnawing through them even faster.

Sure the visual quality is lacking, but the actual quality is there. I'm not sure on Bersa as I haven't had any serious experience with them yet...but from what I've seen they seem to be competant firearms. Just not as polished a product as something 2-3x the price.

Cheap on the other hand....Think Jennigs/Lorcin/Davis.
 
South American steel is very poor quality and you can even see it's pores quality just by taking any abrasive to it. Just try to blue South American steel you will see the poor quality real quick.......................and other nonsense too numerous to mention.....................
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Bersa are inexpensive not cheap.

They are very durable and reliable, field tested pistols used by several police agencies and military forces.

Yes you are right, the finishing (not the fit) is not top notch...this has nothing to do with the quality of the steel or its durability (Bersa frames are not made of steel, by the way, but Ergal, the same alloy used by Beretta).

Nowadays with our integrated logistic world you do not know where the steel (and other material) come from inside a factory located in a specific area of the world....so saying that "South American steel is low quality" is incredibly silly.

Taurus had some problems in the past but now they did get things right finally.

There are Ballester-Molina pistols that are highly sought after pieces, extremely strong and reliable.

Doc Glock....please do not waste precious server space (and poster's time) with comments like that....and someone with that nickname..."Doc Glock"....is not entitled to talk about quality firearms anyway :evil::D:neener:....a Bersa is definitely not inferior in quality to Gaston tupperware...
 
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Doc Glock said:
Let me introduce you to Llama then. I make my statements as one who has refinished many firearms with hot bath bluing. South American steel is terrible to work with......that's why they parkerize them sir or undercoat them with copper so they can nickle plate them. Chinese steel isn't much better either in my opinion.

See there are people who only shoot guns and other people who like to take them apart and work with them. All part of the same hobby just different approaches. There are many roads that lead to the same place. Just because I will not travel yours does not mean I won't get there as well.
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You are aware that the Llama is not a South American pistol, aren't you?
Pretty much makes this post meaningless.
I own 2 South American pistols, a Colt Sistema and an FM-90. No problem with the steel in either of them. I also own a SPANISH Star Super A. Nothing wrong with the steel there either.
 
It may make sense to regard individual Make-Model Pistols individually, rather than to regard all Pistols of any Given Country as somehow being identical-enough as to be included in the same breath.

Quality of Steel, or Metalurgy of whatever Alloy, quality of fit and finish, quality of design and engineering, or other attributes will vary from Make to Make, era to era, Model to Model.
 
I see you still attacking Bersa being ban off 4 boards this year has taught you nothing
You misstatements and hate for one brand of pistol is be on belief. I almost for got you hate 1911 about as much also Said you carried you little Russian gun in Nam because the 1911 didn't work . Did I get all that correct.

Have a good run here the people will see your true colors in a short time.
 
Brand loyalty?

The lengths to which some will go to boost their brand of choice, and to attack other individuals' favorites always amazes me. Have your say, if you wish, but, please let it go without trying to bludgeon everyone else into thinking like you do.

Okay, some of you like Fords and others like Chevys, too.

I think this topic has been beaten around for long enough.

CLOSED
 
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