fix
Member
Ok. So if Newt Gingrich sent you a link to DU, would that make it more objective?
Sick of the National Guard debacle.
- Thread starter Diggler
- Start date
- Status
Jonesy9,
What part of Bush's record hasn't been released? Do you even know what an Air Force record consists of? I don't, I spent all my time in the Army. Tell me what is missing from what the administration released. Of course we can surely expect that there would be no holes in a military record, that's why we tell everyone to keep their own file and make copies of everything. When a service member moves from unit to unit, chances are things get pulled from a file because the new unit doesn't think it's important.
Last week the director of the records center in St Louis gave an interview on KMOX radio. He explained how records of famous people, politicians, entertainers etc. are segregated and kept in a vault. where no employee of the center would have routine access to them. He stated that the president's record was placed in the vault when he ran for governor of Texas and that it remained there until the administration requested it last week. Then it was removed from the vault and sent to the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Colorado. This disproves the story of the record being sanitized in Texas.
Now let's talk a minute about this:
I don't want to sound sarcastic, but do you know anything about the military that protects your freedom to post on THR? We're not the old Soviet Army. We don't maintain penal battalions where soldiers are sent for re-education. The only way he could have been sent somewhere like the disciplinary barracks at Ft Leavenworth KS was if he'd have been convicted of a serious offense at court martial. Service members are senteced to a bad discharge along with their trip to Leavenworth. He would also have a federal felony conviction on his record if that was the case.
He was working on a political campaign. this is common knowledge. It's also quite common for reservists who had civilian job conflicts to arrange to make the drills up to cover the abesence. It happened then and it's happening today. It's the way things have always worked in the RC. Better to make accomidations for civilian career goals then to lose the servicemember entirely. As for serving community service for a drunk driving incident, no one heard of that concept back in the 70s. In fact in most of the US in the early 70s drunk driving wasn't a much more serious offense then a speeding ticket. It wasn't until the mid 80s when organizations like Mothers Against Drunk Driving brought the issue into the public eye did the nation reform the DUI laws.
Yep, people who's service was less then stellar get honorable discharges. But they also get bad RE (re-enlistment) codes. Get out your copy of the president's DD214 and NGB Form 22 and look at the block marked Re-enlistment. It should be near the bottom of both forms. You'll see a code, a number next to the letters RE. Now since anyone who would defend the president on an online forum must be a member of the vast right wing conspiracy (although if you search my posts, you'll find plenty I disagree with Bush on) get out your phone book. Go to the white pages under US Government and look up the closest recruiting office. Now pick one of them and call the number. Ask the friendly NCO who answers the phone if anyone with whatever RE code the president has is eligible to re-enlist. Don't say it's the president's RE code, just act like you are inquiring for yourself or a friend. If he says, they couldn't or it would require a waiver, then you'll know your feeling is right. Somehow I doubt that you'll find he had a bad RE code.
Perhaps Senator Kerry would care to address the VFW, the American Legion and the Vietnam Verterns of America as to how he could dishonor those he served, sweated and bled with when he came back from Vietnam and joined the antiwar movement. Perhaps he can explain how he could bring himself to call the men who he should have had bonds stronger then those who have never served can comprehend baby killers. Perhaps while he's in Wisconsin, he'd like to drop by Laotian and Cambodian community in LaCrosse and explain to them why Pol Pot was really a good guy, just misunderstood...It was the American left and the antiwar movement he embraced that is directly responsible for 2 million massacred on the killing fields of Cambodia and the displacement and murder of the Hmong population in Laos.
Kerry has plenty of baggage attached to his involvment with the antiwar movement after he returned from Vietnam. You Democrats would be well advised to try to win the campaign on real issues.
Jeff
What part of Bush's record hasn't been released? Do you even know what an Air Force record consists of? I don't, I spent all my time in the Army. Tell me what is missing from what the administration released. Of course we can surely expect that there would be no holes in a military record, that's why we tell everyone to keep their own file and make copies of everything. When a service member moves from unit to unit, chances are things get pulled from a file because the new unit doesn't think it's important.
Last week the director of the records center in St Louis gave an interview on KMOX radio. He explained how records of famous people, politicians, entertainers etc. are segregated and kept in a vault. where no employee of the center would have routine access to them. He stated that the president's record was placed in the vault when he ran for governor of Texas and that it remained there until the administration requested it last week. Then it was removed from the vault and sent to the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Colorado. This disproves the story of the record being sanitized in Texas.
Now let's talk a minute about this:
I don't want to sound sarcastic, but do you know anything about the military that protects your freedom to post on THR? We're not the old Soviet Army. We don't maintain penal battalions where soldiers are sent for re-education. The only way he could have been sent somewhere like the disciplinary barracks at Ft Leavenworth KS was if he'd have been convicted of a serious offense at court martial. Service members are senteced to a bad discharge along with their trip to Leavenworth. He would also have a federal felony conviction on his record if that was the case.
He was working on a political campaign. this is common knowledge. It's also quite common for reservists who had civilian job conflicts to arrange to make the drills up to cover the abesence. It happened then and it's happening today. It's the way things have always worked in the RC. Better to make accomidations for civilian career goals then to lose the servicemember entirely. As for serving community service for a drunk driving incident, no one heard of that concept back in the 70s. In fact in most of the US in the early 70s drunk driving wasn't a much more serious offense then a speeding ticket. It wasn't until the mid 80s when organizations like Mothers Against Drunk Driving brought the issue into the public eye did the nation reform the DUI laws.
Yep, people who's service was less then stellar get honorable discharges. But they also get bad RE (re-enlistment) codes. Get out your copy of the president's DD214 and NGB Form 22 and look at the block marked Re-enlistment. It should be near the bottom of both forms. You'll see a code, a number next to the letters RE. Now since anyone who would defend the president on an online forum must be a member of the vast right wing conspiracy (although if you search my posts, you'll find plenty I disagree with Bush on) get out your phone book. Go to the white pages under US Government and look up the closest recruiting office. Now pick one of them and call the number. Ask the friendly NCO who answers the phone if anyone with whatever RE code the president has is eligible to re-enlist. Don't say it's the president's RE code, just act like you are inquiring for yourself or a friend. If he says, they couldn't or it would require a waiver, then you'll know your feeling is right. Somehow I doubt that you'll find he had a bad RE code.
Perhaps Senator Kerry would care to address the VFW, the American Legion and the Vietnam Verterns of America as to how he could dishonor those he served, sweated and bled with when he came back from Vietnam and joined the antiwar movement. Perhaps he can explain how he could bring himself to call the men who he should have had bonds stronger then those who have never served can comprehend baby killers. Perhaps while he's in Wisconsin, he'd like to drop by Laotian and Cambodian community in LaCrosse and explain to them why Pol Pot was really a good guy, just misunderstood...It was the American left and the antiwar movement he embraced that is directly responsible for 2 million massacred on the killing fields of Cambodia and the displacement and murder of the Hmong population in Laos.
Kerry has plenty of baggage attached to his involvment with the antiwar movement after he returned from Vietnam. You Democrats would be well advised to try to win the campaign on real issues.
Jeff
fix
Member
It's not so much a question of whether the list is truthful, but rather a question of whether it is complete. I'm sure if we put the Democrats under the microscope the list would be more extensive. Then there is the obvious bias, evidenced by much of the verbage. I could go on, but I'm not gonna change your mind...and you're not gonna change mine.
FPrice
Member
Jonesy9...
"the rest, Bush, Cheney, Hastert, Lott, Delay, Perle, Wolfowitz, Card, Abrams, bolton, Thompson, Pitt, Ashcroft, Olson, Barr, Gingrich, Guilaini, nichols , Meyers, REAGAN, Quayle, Rove, Falwell, Robertson, Reed, Gafney, Nugent, etc etc did not serve."
I noticed that you had President Reagan's name capitalized as if it were meant to signify something. So I looked up his biography. It reports:
"1937 Reagan becomes a 2nd Lieutenant in the Army Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry."
Hmm, four years BEFORE WWII.
"December: U.S. at war. Reagan drafted into the army. Nearsighted vision keeps him away from the front. He is assigned to the Motion Picture Army Unit in Culver City to make training and propaganda films."
Drafted but not medically qualified for combat duty, so he did what he could do for the war effort.
So I guess Reagan DID serve. Maybe not up to your "qualifications", but he did serve.
"the rest, Bush, Cheney, Hastert, Lott, Delay, Perle, Wolfowitz, Card, Abrams, bolton, Thompson, Pitt, Ashcroft, Olson, Barr, Gingrich, Guilaini, nichols , Meyers, REAGAN, Quayle, Rove, Falwell, Robertson, Reed, Gafney, Nugent, etc etc did not serve."
I noticed that you had President Reagan's name capitalized as if it were meant to signify something. So I looked up his biography. It reports:
"1937 Reagan becomes a 2nd Lieutenant in the Army Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry."
Hmm, four years BEFORE WWII.
"December: U.S. at war. Reagan drafted into the army. Nearsighted vision keeps him away from the front. He is assigned to the Motion Picture Army Unit in Culver City to make training and propaganda films."
Drafted but not medically qualified for combat duty, so he did what he could do for the war effort.
So I guess Reagan DID serve. Maybe not up to your "qualifications", but he did serve.
HunterGatherer
member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2004
- Messages
- 379
Me too. The arguments aren't even fun.
Watching people who got their knowledge of military service from Oliver Stone movies argue with those of us with real military sevice is like watching a bull elephant stomp a puppy. It's just pathetic.
Malone LaVeigh
Member
Not everyone, but, read my sig line.
Absolutely, 1000%, agree with that statement. Lied us into an unnecessary war ill-prepared for the aftermath or long-term consequences. That's the main reason I wouldn't vote for Bush if he was running against Charles Manson.
Not that I'm likely to vote for Kerry, but these threads about his anti-war years make me consider it...
It's quite disgusting to see people speaking in this manner.
Dissent is a fundamental part of democracy.
Last I looked the 1st Amendment is just as important as the 2nd Amendment as well as the rest of the Bill of Rights.
Personally I think Kerry is a jackass, and i'd never vote for him (Or Bush). But calling him a traitor for his stance against the war is quite simply riddiculous. He fought in Vietnam and did his time.
Dissent is a fundamental part of democracy.
Last I looked the 1st Amendment is just as important as the 2nd Amendment as well as the rest of the Bill of Rights.
Personally I think Kerry is a jackass, and i'd never vote for him (Or Bush). But calling him a traitor for his stance against the war is quite simply riddiculous. He fought in Vietnam and did his time.
bountyhunter
member
You are right about that. Mis reading the letters on the eye chart and spending the war making movies isn't up to anybody's standard of service. Do you seriously think his eyes were not checked when he enlisted into the cavalry Reserve?
You think nobody in the Army wore glasses? My father was nearsighted his whole life, wore glasses his whole life, and served in an infantry rifle company the whole war carrying a BAR. he was a certified expert with rifles and pistols.
Nearsighted gets you out? Give me a break.
fix
Member
Al Norris
Member
Is it? It was quite simply ridiculous to go before a Congressional Committee and call your fellow soldiers baby killers, while so many of those soldiers were dying back in the jungle.
But then, you apparently hold Kerry's 1st amendment rights as superior to my own.
The facts are that the North was losing, if not lost... Except for the aid and comfort and encouragement and above all hope, people like Kerry and Fonda gave them. The anti-war movement cost more lives than it ever saved.
Orion
Member
OK, perhaps some of you people have never heard of the Cold War, Bear, Badger or Backfire bombers, CAP over the southern coast.
During this period of time we didn't have the technology we do today, Most of you don't remember or realise that we had SAC flight crews in the air "In the Pattern" almost all the time. The Soviets did too.
Bush flew Interceptors, not fighter bombers but Interceptors!!! There were no F-102's or Interceptors in use in Southeast Asia during President Bush term of service.
My understanding is that President Bush had over 600hrs in the F-102.
So, his record states that he was in training in T-38, T-31, planes etc. for over 2 years, plus his basic times, plus his survival training, plus the time he was in Alabama and not flight rated (apparantly common practice to not have visiting personnel fly, office duty was the norm)
We'll be safe and call that 3 years the President didn't fly F-102's for whatever reason. 600 hours divided by 36 months that about 16 hours a month flight time. or 2 8 hours shifts in the air a month. Let me see now, Guard Duty requirments are, can anyone remember... Oh yeah, 1 weekend a month!!! Now let's be more specific, President Bush spent over 16 hours IN THE AIR a month, that doesn't count flight briefings, preflight, after action reports, on and on and on.
Now for the dumbasses that don't understand the difference between a B-52 flying "in the Pattern" and an INTERCEPTOR FLYING CAP... a B-52 is a big ???, slow, sluggish dog that has little or no ability to defend itself let alone take out another aircraft. An Interceptor such as the F-102 Delta Dagger was capable of flying over 800 knots with 6 missiles to intercept a big ??? slow bomber like the Bear, capable of carrying several different payloads but most notably the H-20 missile
During this period of time we didn't have the technology we do today, Most of you don't remember or realise that we had SAC flight crews in the air "In the Pattern" almost all the time. The Soviets did too.
Bush flew Interceptors, not fighter bombers but Interceptors!!! There were no F-102's or Interceptors in use in Southeast Asia during President Bush term of service.
My understanding is that President Bush had over 600hrs in the F-102.
So, his record states that he was in training in T-38, T-31, planes etc. for over 2 years, plus his basic times, plus his survival training, plus the time he was in Alabama and not flight rated (apparantly common practice to not have visiting personnel fly, office duty was the norm)
We'll be safe and call that 3 years the President didn't fly F-102's for whatever reason. 600 hours divided by 36 months that about 16 hours a month flight time. or 2 8 hours shifts in the air a month. Let me see now, Guard Duty requirments are, can anyone remember... Oh yeah, 1 weekend a month!!! Now let's be more specific, President Bush spent over 16 hours IN THE AIR a month, that doesn't count flight briefings, preflight, after action reports, on and on and on.
Now for the dumbasses that don't understand the difference between a B-52 flying "in the Pattern" and an INTERCEPTOR FLYING CAP... a B-52 is a big ???, slow, sluggish dog that has little or no ability to defend itself let alone take out another aircraft. An Interceptor such as the F-102 Delta Dagger was capable of flying over 800 knots with 6 missiles to intercept a big ??? slow bomber like the Bear, capable of carrying several different payloads but most notably the H-20 missile
its impossible to get Kerry on what policies he is going to use as president. Know why? He doesn't have any! All he does is state the issue, which almost nobody can disagree with....
listen.
When I am elected into office, I will stimulate the economy and bring jobs back into America. There will be no defecit.. We need to be better prepared in the war on terror.
Wow... I think I already might get 100 or so write in votes
listen.
When I am elected into office, I will stimulate the economy and bring jobs back into America. There will be no defecit.. We need to be better prepared in the war on terror.
Wow... I think I already might get 100 or so write in votes
HunterGatherer
member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2004
- Messages
- 379
Let's see... since my last post we have:
Stomp
Stomp
Stomp
LMAO
Precisely
Amen
Exactly
Poor little puppies. The little fellas never had a chance.
Stomp
Stomp
Stomp
LMAO
Precisely
Amen
Exactly
Poor little puppies. The little fellas never had a chance.
ojibweindian
Member
Shooter 2.5 made an excellent post concerning Kerry. I thought I would post it here, then provide the link.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65238&perpage=25&pagenumber=3
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65238&perpage=25&pagenumber=3
Diggler
Member
Wow, if there is a 'negative' of John F'n Kerry, he'd be the perfect president. He is the EXACT opposite of what I believe in.
Now is NOT the time to 'send a message' via third party vote, or staying at home, to the Republican party. The only message you'll send is "Take my guns!"
Now is NOT the time to 'send a message' via third party vote, or staying at home, to the Republican party. The only message you'll send is "Take my guns!"
Malone LaVeigh
Member
Hmm
I seem to agree with Kerry about 80%. Maybe he's not so bad after all.
I seem to agree with Kerry about 80%. Maybe he's not so bad after all.
Malone,
if you agree with him about 80%, you are by definition self-contradicting. You would have to, for example, vote for the war and then oppose it. Or vote for the Patriot act and then condemn it. Or condemn special interests while living off them. Or damn the wealthy while living off them.
As some wag said, Kerry has been having simultaneous flashbacks of fighting in Vietnam and calling his fellow soldiers murderers, causing him to spit on himself.
if you agree with him about 80%, you are by definition self-contradicting. You would have to, for example, vote for the war and then oppose it. Or vote for the Patriot act and then condemn it. Or condemn special interests while living off them. Or damn the wealthy while living off them.
As some wag said, Kerry has been having simultaneous flashbacks of fighting in Vietnam and calling his fellow soldiers murderers, causing him to spit on himself.
those things that Kerry allegedly said are pretty bad and get thrown around a lot. I'm always suspect of political emails, especially smear jobs.
I looked up the alledged quotes and was not surprised to find that they were taken out of context.
Kerry began his 1971 testimony by describing statements made on the record by a large number of vets about their own personal actions.
"...several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads..."
The GOP and their surrogates have twisted the record intentionally to where normally rational people believe Kerry was calling people baby killers and think he was claiming that he had witnessed the atrocities himself. Suckers! But they play the part well. LMAO!
Looks like we got duped. I understand that most people don't care and will continue to spout them, there are morally and ethically bankrupt folks on both sides, even some of them vets. It sad that Kerry's fellow vets will continue to slander him and lie about his quotes for politcal gain. I would never urinate on a mans record like that and I'm not a vet.
As for voting for the Patriot Act and then condeming it, too bad more pols don't have the spine to do that. The PA was rammed through Congress on a wave of nationalism, almost 100% of both sides of the aisle negelected their responsibilites and got suckered into voting on yet another bill they didn't read. The real travesty is that there haven't been more right wingers standing up against it noe that they have had ample time to read it. There have been some, but not enough.
Kerry record on special interest money has also been distorted, I got slapped down pretty hard on that one on another BB. Bush has taken 4 times the amount of money Kerry has since 1990 in the last 3 years alone. And Kerry is the only one who doesn't take PAC money.
Man I hate defending Kerry. He loses the debate when it comes to issues, why we need to debase it with outright lies and destroy your own credibility is retarded.
I looked up the alledged quotes and was not surprised to find that they were taken out of context.
Kerry began his 1971 testimony by describing statements made on the record by a large number of vets about their own personal actions.
"...several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads..."
The GOP and their surrogates have twisted the record intentionally to where normally rational people believe Kerry was calling people baby killers and think he was claiming that he had witnessed the atrocities himself. Suckers! But they play the part well. LMAO!
Looks like we got duped. I understand that most people don't care and will continue to spout them, there are morally and ethically bankrupt folks on both sides, even some of them vets. It sad that Kerry's fellow vets will continue to slander him and lie about his quotes for politcal gain. I would never urinate on a mans record like that and I'm not a vet.
As for voting for the Patriot Act and then condeming it, too bad more pols don't have the spine to do that. The PA was rammed through Congress on a wave of nationalism, almost 100% of both sides of the aisle negelected their responsibilites and got suckered into voting on yet another bill they didn't read. The real travesty is that there haven't been more right wingers standing up against it noe that they have had ample time to read it. There have been some, but not enough.
Kerry record on special interest money has also been distorted, I got slapped down pretty hard on that one on another BB. Bush has taken 4 times the amount of money Kerry has since 1990 in the last 3 years alone. And Kerry is the only one who doesn't take PAC money.
Man I hate defending Kerry. He loses the debate when it comes to issues, why we need to debase it with outright lies and destroy your own credibility is retarded.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Kerry doesn't agree with HIMSELF 80% of the time.
He's also anti-gun (see his "perfect" voting record for details), and it's pretty funny to see pro-Kerry folks on a forum whose purpose is to advance the cause of the right to keep and bear arms. Maybe we can find some pro-KKK views on the killwhitey.com forums...
bountyhunter
member
An astute observation. This administration is the most heinous I've seen since Nixon's at the use of propoganda. And, I wouldn't laugh too much: it works. Kerry's anti war record will cost him the next election. The Bush machine is going to beat him to death with that stick.
BTW: the "normally rational" public is easily led and has a retention capacity of about three syllables. Watch as politics sinks to a low not seen in decades.
bountyhunter
member
This is the Big Lie #2 of the Bush administration that I want to drive a stake through the heart of:
That anybody who voted for the resolution was NOT against the war, and saying they were must mean they flip-flopped.
Bottom line, it was clear the war was going to happen. Most of the senators caved in and voted for the resolutuion as a show of support for our armed forces and also our country, not the Looney Toon who was driving full speed to a war we didn't need.
It can be argued they should have made a stand, but they were being beaten with the "If you aren't with us you are a terror lover stick."
Point is, it is not hypocritical to state that many people who opposed the war voted to authorize the resources our soldiers would need to fight it.
fix
Member
They voted seperately to authorize resources. The vote everyone is talking about is the vote to go kill bad guys.
- Status