Sig 220compact !!!!!

[jimk66]

Hey Folks,
I tell ya what fellows, I just put out $1000.00 for a new dream machine but it's turned out to be a nightmare. My new Sig P220 compact 45 I bought last week was taken to the range the following two days and fired over 400 rounds of Winchester target rounds(Wal-Mart)and Speer FMJ's through it AND I HAVE YET TO BE ABLE TO FIRE ALL 6 ROUNDS OUT OF A MAG WITHOUT A FTF ON THE LAST ROUND.
I returned to the dealer after each session and his response was.....what kind of ammo are you using? We've had no issues with the Sig P220's so ammo's probably the problem, but I'll take it back in the back and check it out. Upon his return he Say's "I couldn't find anything wrong with it when I tried it". I ask if I could go back and watch him test a couple more mags using my ammo and he said "NO very bluntly". It was against the law. I said "BULL**** I used to police OSHA! I repeated the gun has a serious problem and it sure as hell isn't the ammo I used nor is it me creating the problem. He says I'll send it back to Sig for them to check out. I said, not believing what he said while looking me straight in the eye "thats all your not going to replace it or at least offer me another pistol of like value"?? He said we don't do refunds period end of conversation.
Funny thing...I've bought several guns off these guys over the years and thought I knew them but I guess thats how they treat ya when it comes to backing up their products or reputations. He just took my gun without giving me a receipt or anything. Wonder if I should go get something proving they have my gun???
I'm from a small town in IN and Their way of doing business isn't the way I'd do it and they'd last about five minutes up there, but I guess they don't give a darn what people think of them.
When this is over you can bet it'll be a cold day in hell before I ever walk through the doors of that shop again. So...hard telling how long it'll take, but if I don't have it back in two or three weeks I'm going to find out why.
Soon as I get it back it's up for sale because I'll never be able to trust the gun. Then I'll get an HK compact 45 which is what I should have done in the first place. No more Sigs for me because I love my P232 nnd P239 9mm.
JimK

 

[brett30030]

Sounds like a magazine problem to me. Did you try using a different mag? I would bet that is your problem.

 

[rellascout]

Its not a mag problem. It is an extractor problem.

 

[fastbolt]

Any new pistol can exhibit some minor issues from time to time.

Sometimes it may be the shooter (although nobody wants to hear that) ... sometimes it may be the way the gun is cleaned and lubricated ... sometimes it may be the ammunition ... and sometimes it may be the gun itself.

Did you clean out all of the packing lube inside the magazines before using them? Is the pistol sufficiently lubricated as recommended by Sig Sauer. Even in the Sig Sauer pistol armorer class it was repeatedly emphasized throughout both days that Sig pistols are essentially 'wet' guns, and that they must be lubricated so that the presence of lubrication (in the appropriate locations, of course) can be verified visually and by touch. This was even a question on the written test which required two blanks be filled in (i.e. seeing & feeling).

There have been some extractor issues mentioned, upon occasion, related to the new extractor design, too. It can be resolved by the folks at Sig Sauer.

Here are some other threads.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292224&highlight=Sig+P220+Compact
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=334200&highlight=Sig+Sauer+220
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=824252&highlight=Sig+P220+problems&page=2

 

[Monkeybear]

I have never known a dealer that would take a return on a firearm. Ever. It just don't happen.

 

[FullEffect1911]

the stainless slide p220's internal extractor design is overly complicated which makes the parts difficult to make. Unless the part is made to exact specs, it will likely not work out right. On the plus side Sig has been known to put the right extractors in there on returns. The p220ST that I had was very reliable, but I still didn't like the extractor design.

Conversely just this year Sig has put the p220 out with an external extractor design, In my opinion this is a long overdue upgrade.

They have been talking about this subject over on the sigforum.

 

[usp_fan]

This is a well worn story over on Sigforum.com. If you head over there, you will find two plausible fixes for your 220 carry. One is to send it to SIG and they will polish the extractor and feed ramp. This seems to help in many cases. The second involves a small machining mark in the slide near the left corner of the breach face, this can be removed with a small file.

If you call SIG customer service your self, you may be able to get them to send you a shipping label to cover shipping.

These are really neat little .45's. Some don't work as they should. SIG needs to make it right for you.

 

[Shadow1198]

Buy a new external extractor P220 or old non-rail frame P220, problem solved. Sorry, I'm sure that's not what you want to hear. Even though the old carbon steel slide P220's still had an internal extractor, it is a different design and dead nuts reliable.

Against the law to watch him test the gun? That dealer needs to put the crack pipe down!

As far as Sig being able to fix it if it is an extractor problem, technically yes they can. Here's the problem though, on some of the newer P220's as previously mentioned, the extractor's have issues because of a design flaw. Sure they can replace it with a brand new, perfect one, but because the design is flawed the problem is eventually going to come out again once the extractor wears a bit so technically it is only a temporary fix. If you bought it for a carry gun, IMO temporary fixes are unacceptable on something your life may have to depend on.

The HK45C is an awesome gun, and I'd highly recommend it if you get to that point.

 

[rellascout]

I am trying to get Sig to put the external extractor on my P220 SAS which is currently at the factory. If that does not happen I am going to sell the gun or send it to Bruce Gray at GGI so he can install one of his redesigned extractors.

Update: Sig will not put an external extractor on my gun. I wish I had never bought this Sig. I love my other ones but this one clearly will be the problem child.

 

[Lonestar49]

Couple of thoughts

this is an extractor problem.

...

Actually, I sense user-error, here, as I see no pics..

I hate personal problems, they just always seem to get worse..

If only your problem child P220 SAO was a Carry model, I'd buy that gun in a heartbeat from ya..

How many rounds did you successfully get out her, total, before ya sent her in?

When ya finally get her back, fixed by the right party, and if ya want to sell her, at a fair, lower price, PM me, I may be interested...


Ls

 

[rellascout]

Why are you attacking and blaming the original poster?

This is not user error and I believe you know that. Any interest in a P220 SAS. I'll give you a good deal!!!!!

 

[Lonestar49]

Another User, reader, Error

Why are you attacking and blaming the original poster?

This is not user error and I believe you know that.

...

Ya know, you really have a way with anyone that disagrees with you or any negative Sig poster's words or actions and cry foul all the time..

IF you look at his post and his quote, and look at where the PIC's are supposed to be, I don't SEE the pics, thus: User Error.. as in, what I said, where are the PIC's?? as in post #7..

Ya need to relate words with quotes, "subject matter", not just fire first, ask questions later..

Keep yer finger off the trigger, please, for your own safety..

GEEZ!!


Ls

NOTE TO READERS: Apparently the original poster of slot post #7 whose post was "very" short with the words I quoted (refering to my post #10) had below the quote "like this" and 2 photos below that, but they weren't there, is NOW totally gone..

Not very post-proper etiquette to do.. IMO

 

[Lonestar49]

No, I don't really know that, or why.. "Variables"

This is not user error and *I believe you know that.

...

No, *I don't.. And I'll tell ya why.

Not long ago, at my range, which happens to be the range where most PD's use for class and range practice..

As I was shooting my Sig P220, bought it early last year 07, and that day, as well as, up to now, it has shot and functioned perfectly, some 1400 rounds and going..

Anyhow, my point.. He, and a couple of his young friends set up in the lane next to me, with a PD large type hanging full body, target, and out at aprox 7yds..

Brand new gun, as I watched him signing the papers and they handed him the NIB, and his smile when he opened it up and I commented, "nice P220 Carry"..

So, when they came into the firing range, I couldn't help but notice it took it straight out of the box, and a 50 round box of Winchester wb 45 ammo, entered his lane, and Boom, Boom Boom.. all was ok.

But around the 30th shot, or less, I heard crumbling, and heard one of his buddies say: "extractor problem".. and as they headed back to the table, to put in back in the case and then take it to the Gunny that works there, I went back and said: "Feed problems?"

Yep, he said, with a disappointed look, and I asked him (and I already knew the answer).. "did you inspect your gun first, to make sure it is clean, has oil on the rails, guides, exterior of the barrel, chamber guide, and that the feed ramp was clean?

"NO".. I smiled and said, let me show you how easy it is to chk, and disassembled his gun (5 sec's) and sure enough, very little oil on the rails and guides, none on the chamber guide/rail, etc..

So I took some of my gun oil, and EEZOX and got a Q-tip soaked in the EEZOX, quick-cleaned rails, guides, barrel, feed ramp, etc., and then put on fresh, clean oil, with a fresh soaked Q-tip, and put his gun back together, cycled the slide 4-5 times, and said, go try it now.. 5 mins later, if that.

There is no long and short of this story, as it's just the facts:

After they all, (3) of them had gone thru a mag apiece, I got a tap on my shoulder, and the guy, with a big smile on his face, handed me a mag, loaded, and so, I shot his gun. I noticed that I could shoot it better than my own P220 standard, (as I used my target, in my lane, at distance) and they finished some, 150 flawless rounds and walked out happy..

So, no "I don't know" that it is any-one's, or everyone's, extractor problem, but what I do know is far too many people assume that the gun is rdy to go, right out of the box.

Too many people buy an expensive gun, but can't really afford the expensive new ammo, and buy cheap ammo, or range reloads..

Too many people never think about first, servicing the mags, inside/interior walls, etc.

Too many people don't know, the smaller Compact guns with small grips/length, require far firmer, grip, and is far less forgiving of limp-wrist effects, on a gun that has a timing issue right out of the gate, let alone, a gun that has great lubrication, but doesn't tolerate a weak, wrong, or improper, grip and they JAM, as in feed jams.

So, nope, "I don't know what any-one's real problem is, until much later, when and IF they post what was changed, to make it right, be it oil, keeping a Sig WET, like 1911's, for timing purposes. Be it, grip requirements change, the smaller the gun, the more powerful, and with less actual grip-length for a more natural, grip-fit, and how it is compared to one's other guns and grip with longer grip-lengths..

So, no "I don't know", but as I said, like guns, like cars, many buy top dollar guns/cars, but the shock of new, good, ammo, or gas, hits home fast, and many look for, and seek out, the cheapest gas in town, like Regular, or range reload ammo..

And they wonder why their guns jam, cars don't run as good, as it did the week after, the good gas ran out and, the cheap stuff/ammo, was put in..

It's about timing, it's about many things, one being, an extractor issue and I grant anyone that, but simply to say I should know that and take any-one's word as the Holy Grail of fixes of P220 problems (any size) without really knowing what they "chose to use, do, grip, with a new gun, and larger caliber, is anyone's guess, least it is from where I see it, and have seen it.

Small 45's, like my Colt Defender, demand to be WET, demand good ammo, good, on-going, grip, clean mags, and if one of these "variables" is not met, I get a feed-jam and chk the known-trouble areas that fix the problem, and that gun has not failed in some 1400 rounds later, but was not the case for the first 300 rounds, both in, (clean oil and WET, mags cleaned), and in my Grip of it.

I had the new, clean, good ammo right though, always do when it comes to ammo.



Let any reader "garner" the good and bad of any thread, learn from it, what they want, and make a better, informed, decision and take from it; the results "they get".

That, in a Nutshell, is Higher Road, least, that is what I used to think about this forum and it's ongoing direction and debates held in check, by the posters, not the MODS.

So, you see, I don't know, nor "should I know" as you try and tell me "I should know that".. along with, labeling me, again, an "attacker" of every-one's problem with their P220's, statements that have only a half-truth, IMO, because there is always gonna be 2-sides to any story, the good and the bad, and what you seem certain not to allow myself, or others, to say:

"Haven't had any problems" like that or, more important, there can be another possibility/s (variables) that anyone should, can, look-at first, thru learning, IF they want too.



Ls

 

[MarcusWendt]

Its not a mag problem. It is an extractor problem.

How can you say this without inspecting the weapon? Shooting it?

I am aware that some folks have had some extractor problems with the P220 handgun. That having been said, I'm also aware that there are many people with new P220s that don't have extractor problems.

How can you make that as a statement of fact without looking at or firing the weapon?

 

[rellascout]

It is easy. If you look at the OP the fact he is only having issue on the last round of the mag is the dead giveaway.

Mag problems would have presented differently. If the gun was not clean prior to shooting it would have had much more erratic issues. It would not consistently FTF the last round.

 

[1BLINDREF]

It is easy. If you look at the OP the fact he is only having issue on the last round of the mag is the dead giveaway.

Mag problems would have presented differently. If the gun was not clean prior to shooting it would have had much more erratic issues. It would not consistently FTF the last round.

Not always the case.
It very well might be an extractor problem, but it could be a magazine problem, or user error/problem.

The OP never stated if he did indeed clean the shipping grease out of the magazines, try the other magazine, or if he/she even cleaned and lubed the gun before he/she took it to the range.

Lets get all of the facts before we jump to conclusions

 

[rellascout]

I give up you all win. There is not a design issue.

As Sig has confirmed new P220 are leaving the factory with external extractors but this is just and update but it is not an issue with any existing pistols.

I am sure my failure was the mags or the fact I only cleaned the pistol once before I shot it.

Please buy my P220 SAS. Once it is back from "hell" I mean New Hampshire.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=357774

 

[jimk66]

Sig P220 compact!!!!

Gentlemen, Thanks for all your input on my problem with this NIB Sig P220c.
Just to clarify some things that have been brought up as possible culprits, but first let me say I've been shooting for over 50 years, I am a service connected disabled VN vet and believe me I know how to correctly maintain and fire a weapon.
1.) The pistol and mags were thoroughly cleaned and lubed before and after each range session as well as extensive use of Q Tips, bore snake and CLP during each session..
2.) It was the dealers apathetic attitude that pis*** me off. It was as if my problem with the guns failure to function properly was an imposition and he didn't really care to hear about it.
3.) I did use each of the factory magizens over and over with the same results (5 bangs and a FTF/Jam) until I exhausted my ammo supply (400)
rounds total in both sessions). I think thats a sufficient number for a proper break-in.
4.) Ammo was: 100 Speer 230 gr fmj, 250 Winchester 230 gr fmj and 50 Mag** 230 gr fmj. And in response to the comment on using "cheap ammo", I will not own a weapon that isn't as reliable on the so-called less expensive/cheap ammo as it is on the more exotic/expensive stuff. Moreover, I personally think paying high prices for range/target ammo is frivolous.
And "YES" over the years I've seen many of the same behaviors exhibited by excited anxious shooters with their new guns just as your nice little story describes but I only offer advice when ask (I don't watch others fill out their paper work, etc. for I have other more interesting personal things on my mind and then I'll bend over backwards to help in any way I can.
I'm not sure what the finish is on my Sig P220 Compact. Black Nitron finish.....what do you guys know about it? Tough, etc.?
Thanks,
JimK

 

[rellascout]

Nitron is decent. It is not a good a tennifer which bonds to the metal but it is very serviceable when applied properly.

 

[1BLINDREF]

I give up you all win. There is not a design issue.

Now that's just silly.
Sig has acknowledged a design issue, that's why they went to the external extractor. That doesn't mean that every time there is a failure to feed the last round in a mag, there can't be other reasons. The OPs post didn't answer the questions that I had.

[Please buy my P220 SAS. Once it is back from "hell" I mean New Hampshire.

If I didn't already have one (that has been flawless), I'd be interested.
What is your asking price?


jimk66-
Thanks for adding the info. Sounds like your Sig is in need of a trip back to Exter. I hope they get her straitend out quickly for you

 

[rellascout]

Now that's just silly.
Sig has acknowledged a design issue, that's why they went to the external extractor. That doesn't mean that every time there is a failure to feed the last round in a mag, there can't be other reasons. The OPs post didn't answer the questions that I had.

[Please buy my P220 SAS. Once it is back from "hell" I mean New Hampshire.
If I didn't already have one (that has been flawless), I'd be interested.
What is your asking price?

No that is the issue Sig has not acknowledge it. They are putting the same poor design in when it goes back to the factory. I would be okay if they acknowledged the issue and offered a better solution.

Instead they are changing the design and calling in the normal evolution of the gun. They state they want to make the P220 more like the other P series guns. They do not in anyway acknowledge that there is a problem with the older design.

I will sell this pistol for $650 shipped to your FFL. P2220 SAS with wood grips. Nite Sights front to back not just front like a standard SAS. Includes 1 8 round & 1 10 round factory nickel mag. Of course box manual and GOT SIG sticker.

I will sell at that price but only under the conditions in the thread I posted.

 

[Lonestar49]

Good reading..

1.) The pistol and mags were thoroughly cleaned and lubed before and after each range session as well as extensive use of Q Tips, bore snake and CLP during each session..
2.) It was the dealers apathetic attitude that pis*** me off. It was as if my problem with the guns failure to function properly was an imposition and he didn't really care to hear about it.
3.) I did use each of the factory magizens over and over with the same results (5 bangs and a FTF/Jam) until I exhausted my ammo supply (400)
rounds total in both sessions). I think thats a sufficient number for a proper break-in.
4.) Ammo was: 100 Speer 230 gr fmj, 250 Winchester 230 gr fmj and 50 Mag** 230 gr fmj. And in response to the comment on using "cheap ammo", I will not own a weapon that isn't as reliable on the so-called less expensive/cheap ammo as it is on the more exotic/expensive stuff. Moreover,

4.a) I personally think paying high prices for range/target ammo is frivolous.

4b.) And "YES" over the years I've seen many of the same behaviors exhibited by excited anxious shooters with their new guns just as your nice little story describes but I only offer advice when ask (I don't watch others fill out their paper work, etc. for I have other more interesting personal things on my mind

END: and then I'll bend over backwards to help in any way I can.

...

1. So with many of the unknown, at first, variables now known, sounds like you're on your way to getting it fixed, hopefully.

2. Understood and completely agree with ya there. That's why I buy from Mom and Pop stores, I never get lost in a crowd, nor do they forget my name, nor do I forget theirs.. Kinda like family. And, count my lucky stars, have had no problems with any of the 2 Mom and Pop stores, I have bought my guns thru, one being at the indoor range I belong to.

3. Yep, I agree here too, Sigs mags have never failed me as well, so it is clearer that user-error, mags, oil, ammo, is most likely not to blame, but as "mentioned".. most likely, taking your word for it, and I do, that the extractor could well-be the problem.. Let us know when she gets back.

4. Certainly your call, I respect that if it works for you..

4a. I was referring to range reloads as, many that I have read about, from others in here and other forums say that's all they sell, so your guess in quality per shot is as good as mine. But My small Mom and Pop Indoor Range sells only new Winchester wb ammo, only. And, when I told them how the best price per case was from Wall Mart, but I really don't like going there waiting for a clerk to unlock the cabinet for 20 mins.. And they said, "why don't you buy your case ammo from us? I said, "because of cost".. and they crunched the numbers for all 3 calibers I shoot, and are selling me cases below what I can get it a Wal Mart for.. So, I'm not complaining..

4.b) It wasn't that I was watching, rather an issue of the timing, as I was getting my targets, etc., and only one RM-clerk works the entire counter and the young man had the case open, next to me, so it wasn't hard to spot and tell what was happening.. And, since I was the only one in the range, as the LEO's are on the other side, when they came in some 15 mins later, and set up right next to me, it just happened that way.. very quiet with only 2 shooters and the other 7 lanes open.. It's a very friendly, gun-lover, type atmosphere there, Monday thru Friday.. Weekends I usually leave for the warriors..

END: as will I, and we, you, me, and many others, do what we can, as I've never forgotten those that helped me in the past, present, and the future, learn from it, and never think I know it all, cause I don't.. I'm still a Student of Life..

I really hope it works out for ya, and look forward to your update when she gets back..


Ls

 

[fastbolt]

Interesting to hear that Sig Sauer is supposedly finally adopting the same external extractor design on their .45 pistols that's worked decently on their other pistols with machined slides chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W and .357SIG. About time.

I rather like the ease and simplicity of replacing and cleaning that spring & plunger tensioned extractor. Kind of reminds me of the way the Remington 870 extractor is installed.

 

[FullEffect1911]

Interesting to hear that Sig Sauer is supposedly finally adopting the same external extractor design on their .45 pistols that's worked decently on their other pistols with machined slides chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W and .357SIG. About time.

Agreed, like I said, I very much dig the new change.

And keep in mind everyone, there are plenty of P220 stainless slide models out there that have no problems at all. Mine was a good one.

But the ones that have problems tend to be vocal and justifiably so, Sigs are expensive and we expect premium things to work right.

Sig may not be willing to admit there is a problem, but they will most likely change the extractor and make it right.

 

[Ruger Redhawk]

I have a Sig P245 that's only been shot a couple times.Sig discontinued this model a couple years after they started them.At least that's what I've been told.This is my first and only Sig. Has there been any issues concerning the P245?. Sig tells me it was dropped only because it didn't sell as well as they hoped it would. There were no issue with it.After reading this has me wondering if there were actually issues with the P245 leading it to be discontinued.Any comments or information is appreciated.