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Sig generation differences?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by seed, May 22, 2011.

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  1. seed

    seed Member

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    I asked this at TFL with no replies, so I'll ask here: What are some of the differences between the different generations of Sigs. Specifically, I have a very early P229 and I was wondering how a gen 2 is different. Is there a gen 3, even? I know about the break-down lever change, but other than that I know very little.
     
  2. Jed Carter

    Jed Carter Member

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  3. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    Sigs do not have generations per se...unlike Glock or S&W...for many models, there are German and American manufactured ones. Their production changes are running changes and you'll also see models coming out with stray parts they have unearthed.

    The 229 has always been manufactured domestically. There are differences between the .40/357 models and the 9mm models, but it is a caliber specific difference. There has been another recent running change in the 9mm 229. Officially these are all Gen 1 229s

    What would lead you to believe that they were different generations?

    Are you by chance referring to the Gen1 and Gen2, SAS models?...it is a difference of trigger systems, but they are convertible back and forth
     
  4. seed

    seed Member

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    It's weird that I have alway liked my Sigs, but have been so ill-informed about their evolution. I'm on top of all sorts of other types of guns, but not Sigs for whatever reason. As for the Gens...well I would keep coming across threads that would mention different gens without going into detail, so I began to wonder. I did searches, but to no avail in terms of details. And I am not too fond of the Sigforums. I think I have an accout there, but have not been there in years.

    So then...what are the differences between the SAS model trigger systems?
     
  5. MJ_ATL

    MJ_ATL Member

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    The first version of the P229 SAS used the DAK trigger system, which is a modified version of a DAO system. I don't believe it sold very well and they changed the SAS to use a normal DA/SA setup.

    ADDED: Forgot about the SRT (short reset trigger) and reduced reach/short trigger.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2011
  6. CutMan

    CutMan Member

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    There is a change at some point on all Sigs, when they switched from an internal to an external ejector. My early 90's 226s have internal ejectors, and I think that change was made when they started making them in the U.S. Also, I think (could be wrong here, please correct me!) that frames were made in Germany for a while, and the slides in Exeter, NH. Now, I believe the whole thing is made in the U.S. I have been wondering about that last statement, so I will be researching it at some point, since i am in the market for a p239.
     
  7. MJ_ATL

    MJ_ATL Member

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    I think the change to the external extractor coincided with the change from the folded slide with a pinned in breach block to the milled one piece slide. This would have been the same time they started offering .40 S&W P226 and P229 models. Also, they P228 was effectively discontinued at that time since the P229 fills the same market space.

    There are a mix of US made and German slides on Sig Sauers these days and I'd be confident in saying that the majority are US made. I do see more of the German made frames on the special 'Custom Shop' models like the SAS and Elite.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2011
  8. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    Yes the first 229 SAS came with the DAK trigger, the latest 229 SAS has a DA/SA trigger system with the SRT modification and with the short trigger installed.

    The 229 was the first Sig with the milled slide and external extractor, it was later offered in 357 SIG and finally 9mm (using a different slide contour and magazine). The 228 (9mm only) was in concurrent production with the 9mm 229 for quite a while (the 228 in military dress, is the M11)

    The 226 got the milled slide and external extractor when they started offering it in .40...the 239 has always had the milled slide.

    The 220 got the milled slide, but kept the internal extractor until recently changing over to the external extractor.

    The only regularly available Sig P-series still produced in Germany are the X-5 pistols
     
  9. MJ_ATL

    MJ_ATL Member

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    Thanks, I wasn't exactly sure of the sequence and timing. I just assumed that they P226 got the .40 S&W at the same time as the P229 introduction.
     
  10. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    It was a gradual transition...I don't think they were sure the .40 would be widely accepted.

    When my old department made the transition from revolvers to semi-automatics, we were given the choice of the 226 in 9mm or the 229 in .40. Neither gun was available in the other caliber. I'm sure that is why the 228 was kept in concurrent production...to provide a compact version of the 226 in 9mm for the market. A few years later, when we transitioned to the 226R, we were given the choice of one chambered in 9mm or .40

    The early 229s are not the same gun you'll see being sold today. There were variations in slide dimensions until they got to right balance of weight to address the recoil characteristics of the .40
     
  11. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    IIRC correctly it was several years later. I do not remember seeing P226s in 40 S&W or .357 Sig until they 1996 when they moved to CNC equipment.
     
  12. seed

    seed Member

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    Can someone show examples of these slide differences and or describe them in detail? Also, how has the frame changed structurally, if at all (other than the rail and trigger systems)?
     
  13. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    Are you asking about the slide differences between the 9mm and .40 slides or the evolution of the .40 229 slide?

    I don't have measurements of the variations of the .40 229...I read about them on Sigforum...and IIRC, it came to light when folks were having problems with their 229 not fitting into holsters clearly marked for that model
     
  14. Lonestar49

    Lonestar49 Member

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    German slide/stamped vs American SS milled slides

    ...

    Here's a pic of the difference in slides, German vs American

    German being lighter/thinner vs the American slides being Stainless steel and thicker for the 40cal

    P228n/r 9mm, all German vs P229n/r 40cal half German/frame and USA SS slide

    Either slide/gun is a great gun/shooter w/the exception of top-end weight being far to a tad less (depending on who ya talk to) with the German slides and, to many, that gives the P228/225 a more balanced lighter feeling vs the heavier P229/40/9mm.. The same for the full size Sig P226 9mm all German vs half and half.

    I have both, and I have to give the edge to the 225/228 9mm over my P229R 9mm

    P229R CT 9mm vs P228n/r all German 9mm -

    [​IMG]

    P228 German slide/thinner/lighter vs P229 American SS slide/thicker/heavier -

    [​IMG]

    Another view of an all German slide vs SA EMP

    Sig P225n/r 9mm single stack mag 8+1 vs SA EMP 1911 9mm, 9+1 single stack mags -

    [​IMG]



    Ls
     
  15. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    Orginally all Sig slides were carbon steel. They were stamped and folded. This includes the P220 9mm, P220 45 ACP, P226 9mm & P228 9mm. Most of these guns were blued. Some will be found with a K Kote finish some might even have Iffalon which are darker finishes. More Black than Blue.

    IIRC the P229 & P239 have always used a milled stainless steel slide. The P220 & P226 are now produced using a stainless steel slide which is milled. These days all Sigs are milled stainless steel slides. They are also finished in Nitron. This is why there is a difference in weight. An older stamped P220s is lighter in the slide than the current production P220s.

    I believe that the profile of the P226 & P229 slides in 9mm changed when they started to produce the 40 S&W and .357 Sig models in quantity so they could take advantage of economy of scale when milling. They used to be slimmer but now are thicker so they can use the same slide milling profile on the CNC machines.

    Again IIRC there where changes in the height of the slide serrations and there have also been changes in the front grip textures too. There are too many for me to remember which applied to which models.

    IIRC the vast majority, in the 95% range, of frames and slides are now produced here in the US in Exeter, NH. The last mass produced pistol that was made 100% in Germany were the SP2022s. As of late last year the SP2022s are now made here too.

    Frames have changed from non-railed to railed. Guns like the P220 have gone from an internal extractor to an external excactor again for economy of scale. There have been several trigger variations. DA/SA, DAK, DAO, SAO etc...
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  16. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Are the slides in the current production P226 9mm pistols different than the slides in the current production P226 40/357 Sig chambering? I recently acquired a P226 357Sig and it feels noticably heavier 'up top' than a recent-production 9mm P226....
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  17. rellascout

    rellascout member

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    IIRC they are the same slide but I am not 100% certain. I currently only own and shoot 9mm and 45 ACP Sigs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2011
  18. MJ_ATL

    MJ_ATL Member

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    Great, you guys are making me learn something about Sigs from before I became aware/addicted since 1996 was the year of my first handgun and the end of a 4 year drinking binge that resulted in a college degree.

    Thanks. :)
     
  19. seed

    seed Member

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    What I was wondering is if Sig changed the slides and or frames in a significant structural manner for the P229 in .40 or other calibers, comparing older examples of the same caliber to newer examples. I know about the folded vs. milled stainless change...I was more wondering about whether since they made that change if they tweaked the design or internals in a structurally important and or significant manner. Did they "beef up" the frame or slide or something since they went to the stainless slides?

    Rellascout has consistently posted about the changes in manufacturing processes. Like him, I believe that these changes were all about cutting costs and corners. Am I wrong? Has Sig done anything in the post-stainless slide era to address any weaknesses or flaws or concerns thereof?
     
  20. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    I went back and checked, and my 9mm slide is an internal extractor version and the 40S&W slide is an external extractor. Between these two, the barrel hood cutout on the 40S&W slide is far more pronounced and yet it feels an ounce or two heavier.

    Sadly, the slides are too heavy for my reloading scale to tell the tale of the tape, so to speak.
     
  21. CutMan

    CutMan Member

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    Wow, great info being shared here! Thanks everyone!
     
  22. wgsigs

    wgsigs Member

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    IIRC the slides may gone from stamped carbon steel to milled stainless steel as a cost saving measure, but also for added heft to handle the .40S&W and .357SIG cartridges.

    Also, another difference between the slides is the carbon slide has a separate breech block that is pinned in while the stainless one has an integrated breech block as can be seen from the top of the slides in the photo of the P228 and P229 posted by Lonestar49.
     
  23. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    Other than the difference in weight/balance which is a non-issue for me and a subjective issue for others, what complaints do people have with the stainless steel slides? In my world, stainless and CNC are just fine. I like that pairing in 1911s and I like it in a SIG too.
     
  24. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I'm concerned at the lack of forthrightness in your approach. If you'd like to know something specific, you'd receive a lot more helpful answers if you'd just ask it outright. It is rude, if not outright deceitful, to have people take the time trying to guess at what you know and what you don't.

    Yes you are

    The form you have chosen, begs the question
     
  25. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    The weight difference...it isn't more than a couple of ounces...comes from the folded slide being a hollow tube with welded endcaps and a pinned in breach block, while the milled slide starts as a solid block. There is a large portion of the breach block that is removed to contain the much longer internal extractor. The folded slides flex much more during recoil
     
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