SIG P220ST Can this design be reliable??

[Master Blaster]

I think I figured out why my SIG P220ST is malfunctioning and it has to do with the design of the extractor and the slide. The extractor is an internal design, and relies on extractor tension to hold it in the slide. I have never seen a design like this on any handgun, or rifle. Usually there is a pin or a clip, or the design of the slide holds the extractor in position by holding it in a tunnel or groove (1911 or old pre 61 hipower). In any event the extractor can't move significantly while its doing its thing.

My failures to extract with my SIG P220ST are due to a poor extractor design that allows the extractor to move down in the slide by as much as 3/16". When the extractor clocks downward it releases the rim of the case and leaves it unextracted in the chamber.

Here are some pictures:

In the first picture the extractor is in its normal spot. In the second picture the extractor has dropped or pivoted down resulting in a failure to extract the fired case. 3 and 4 are of the unpinned extractor from the bottom of the slide, the extractor pivots up and out for cleaning. Unfortunately the extractor relies on its own spring tension to hold it in place in the slide. When the tension weakens it allows the extractor to pivot and the result is an FTE.

What was SIG thinking when they designed this mess?????

And how can I or anyone ever trust this milled slide design given the obvious problem here which will recurr as the extractor wears???

BTW thanks for your patience and my apologies to all for interjecting my annoyance with SIG in other threads last week. I will refrain from doing so in the future.

The question now is what to do about this mess???

 

[Chuck R.]

M. B.

I don’t know what to tell you, but my 220ST has been pretty much flawless for about 4K since I bought it new a year and a half ago. It digests everything I’ve put in it to include my 200 SWC softball loads. The gun is reasonably accurate, and so far very, very, very reliable. Saturday I put another 300 rounds (200 SWCs at 800 FPS) through it without a bobble. I like this gun so much it ALMOST took me away from 1911s (right up until my Baer arrived)

I’m sorry to hear that you bought a used lemon, but from what I’ve read most of the folks that own them seem to be pretty happy, including me.

At this point if I were you, I’d send it back to SIG, then once it’s fixed unload it. There’s probably no way you’re ever going to be happy with it.

Chuck

 

[perception]

I would say send it back to Sig too. I have never heard of anyone else with that problem, and your sig should be flawless. Obviously, it isn't, and Sig will fix that for you.

 

[Rob96]

You may just have a lemon. Sig has been using the internal extractor for quite some time, and have developed the reputation of the most reliable handguns on the market.

 

[TMM]

if understand the specific problem correctly, why don't you remove the extractor, put it in a vice, and give it a little extra bend. if it wears out and gets floppy again, it was probably improperly heat treated, and you should send it to SIG to get it fixed (or just buy a replacement extractor?)

~tmm

 

[Master Blaster]

Itried tensioning it using a 1911 weigand extractor jig I have, It improved for about 50 rounds and went south again. Two weeks ago I called SIG customer service, after 40 minutes on hold I was told they would send me an extractor right away.

A week and a half later I called and spoke to Tina in CS after only a 25 minute wait on hold. That was on Friday and she took my phone number in case there was a problem. She told me there was no record of me having called before, and promised to get an extractor for the P220ST from the gunsmith and send it out right away, hopefully it will arrive today.

If the gun will run for 500 rounds with no problems I will trust it, since the extractor problem potential is no different that what I would face with a 1911.
Except that I know how to Test,replace ,fit, and tension a 1911 extractor and have a spare in my parts drawer. If you do a search here you will find that a couple of months ago I had a Springfield Mil spec with about 2000 rounds on it, and the extractor went bad with no warning, it exhibited the same behavior as my p220ST. I bent the extractor a little using the slide and the gun ran again, ordered a wilson bulletproof and now all is good. WIth about 50,000 or so rounds fired from 1911s this is the only extractor I have ever had go bad.

The SIG was bad out of the box. Of course the same thing could happen with a 1911, but the reason I bought the SIG was because its supposed to be MORE RELIABLE than a 1911.

 

[ravencon]

My used Sig 220ST has functioned flawlessly so far with every brand and type of ammo I've tried.

It is very unfortunate that you got a lemon.
My guess is that once you get things ironed out you'll be happy with it. I hope it is sooner rather than later.

 

[cslinger]

I would say you got a lemon. Send it in. My 220ST just had it's first malfunction ever recently and that is after a couple thousand rounds and with an aftermarket, albeit a good aftermarket, magazine. I would not say it is a design flaw.

Chris

 

[MadMercS55]

Guy at my range had the same issue with a new P220ST. He sent it in and had it back from SIG in about 15 days running 100%. I wouldn't bother too much with it any further. Just call'em and get it back to the factory. In general the P220 is more reliable out of the box than a 1911, but the occasional lemon slips through. Also, the P220ST uses a different extractor design from that of the stamped slide P220. If the spare extractor from SIG shows up later, just keep it as a spare. Getting a bad weapon is very annoying, but from everything I've experienced and heard, SIG should take good care of the problem.

 

[Master Blaster]

Friday after 3 phone calls to SIG I received my promissed shipping label and an RMA number. The gun will arrive in New Hampshire today. I did a little reading on the SIG forum and there are several reports of this same problem either with new pistols or with guns that have fired 2000-4000 rounds.

I also saw several reports of the new X-5 which shares the same extractor design having the same problem, well at least I didnt pay $2000 for my pistol.
One member mentioned extractor problems with the European models of the X5 as well.

Hopefully I will post a glowing range report on my fixed returned pistol in a couple of weeks.

 

[Gary G23]

As you have mentioned a lot of people have had extraction problems with the 220ST. I believe like you that it is the design of the extractor that is at fault. I can tell you what I did. I got rid of the gun.

 

[Master Blaster]

Well, yesterday I received my P220ST back from SIG in NH. I had talked to them and e-mailed a copy of the pictures in this thread. Upon receiving the gun I field stripped it and examined the new extractor they placed in the gun. I first did the classic 1911 extractor tension test,with the slide off the frame, and barrel removed, I slid a fired case up under the extractor. The extractor held the case tightly and shaking the slide did not dislodge it. Well that was very interesting because the old extractor did not hold a fired case, or even touch it when I tried this test prior to the repair. Moreover when I asked the CS tech about the extractor not holding the case I was told"Its the way its supposed to be" Well apparently the gunsmith didnt think so.....

So I looked at the new extractor closely. Not having the old one to compare it too, it appeared to be larger in every dimension.

After some thought, I can only conclude that the problem with the original extractor was that it was the wrong one. Perhaps it was the size intended for the 9mm X5 or a .40 S&W gun.
It was definately not the correct extractor for .45 ACP.

Why? To recap the old extractor could not hold a .45 acp case at all there was a mile of distance between the extractor and the breech face. The new extractor holds a .45 acp case tightly against the breech face, and appears to be a larger size in every dimension. This is probably why they did not send me a new one becuse the difference would have been very obvious.

I will be test firing the gun in the next couple of days and hopefully it will perform as it should.

 

[Master Blaster]

Well a couple of days ago I went out to the range, and fired 175 rounds ranging from light target to full power loads. all were loaded with semi-wadcutters. All fed,fired, and extracted flawlessly.

Accuracy seemed to be good, infact the first shot went through the dead center of the ten ring.

So SIG did fix the gun and they returned it promptly, but their customer service was very difficult to deal with. Thats something they need to work on.

 

[robctwo]

Excellent. Good information. Weird that there would be the wrong part in a gun.

Nice to hear that you had pretty good turn around. Took four weeks for me to get the extractor on my SA replaced. That was OK. I too was frustrated when it happened. I was lucky, nothing subtle about having the hook break off. No issues at all, just no extraction.

Thanks for the information on running the case test to see how the tension is. That is the kind of thing that helps me diagnose troubles with my own guns.

I have the 220 Stainless Stock with the fiber optic sights. I'm not sure just how I did it, but I broke the front optic rod out. Couldn't find replacements in my box. Ordered some new optic rod from Brownells. I now have a lifetime supply I hope.

My 220 is very accurate. Trying to get the SA to be as good. 1911 tinkering is fun as well.

 

[DAVE RICHARDS]

Don't know about the 220 ST but my two tone 220 has been nothing but reliable. Just like all my other Sigs. The 220 is incredibly accurate in fact. Sorry your having problems. It can really be frstrating.

 

[bigmike45]

Master Blaster,

Sorry to hear you are having such a bad time with your 220ST. I had one for about 3 years and put over 5000+ rounds through it without any problems. I did replace the return spring every 2500 rounds, kept it clean and properly lubricated as well. I am a stickler for cleaning and relubing my guns after every shooting session....but thats just me.
I traded my 220ST on a new Wilson Combat CQB, otherwise I would still have it. I have several friends that either have or have had the 220 and the 220ST and to my knowledge none of them have experienced such problems. I would definately have the gun sent back to SIG and let them work on it for you.

 

[torpid]

bigmike45

I would definately have the gun sent back to SIG and let them work on it for you.

Again?!!
After they have already fixed it?

What crazy advice!


(disclaimer- I read more than the initial post)