sig p232/230 ; Mauser HSC ; HK-4 ?????

[blackduck]

i have thought out the following and tried to condense my inquiry for ease of reading . . .hope you can help

ok . .i am considering a 380 sig . . .don't want p239 right now even though not much bigger . . . .the 380 trigger reach is just a little long for me . . .i have owned 20+ handguns in the last 15 years so i am not a beginner but am no expert either . . .i want small lightweight 380 for iwb around my office .. . no kahrs either even though great trigger reach for me . . . .can anything be done with p230/232 to reduce reach to trigger? . .thinner grips? . . . sig does not offer short trigger in 230 or 232 even though it is available on other sigs . . .i have considered cz83/waltherpp/ppk/ makarov variations/ bersa thunder 380 . . .I also want opinions on the following

Mauser HSC and HK-4

they are lightweight like the p230/232 which is a big consideration for me
I have been researching the Mauser HSC as well as the HK-4 recently as i am interested in obtaining a shooter in 9mm Kurz (9x17) aka 380. . .any impressions on:

1) Accuracy?

2) Reliability?

3) Trigger in both double and SA?

4) General parts availability and any gunsmiths working on them at present?

Thanks

 

[Pilot]

Have you considered a Makarov in either .380 or better yet 9MM Makarov? Inexpensive, reliable, accurate and durable. Right now they are available form different sources for around $150. Inexpensive to buy, but not cheap.

HsC and HK-4 are pretty rare. The Sig is a good gun as is the Beretta Model 84 or 85 Cheetah, but you pay a lot for them.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

I think the HSc Mauser is out of production and may be difficult to get NIB. I bought one last year used. It's a classy little gun but for me kind of squarish and angular and doesn't point well.

I started a modest .380 collection years ago and have 10 now. I probably paid too much for some of them but I can tell you that for the price of one used Browning 1910, Colt Mustang, Walther PP or Mauser or a new CZ83 you can buy 3 Makarovs or two Bersa's or 2/3 of a stainless Sig 232 or 1 1/2 KelTec P3AT's.

Price-wise it's hard to beat a Bersa .380 and a Makarov 9X17 or 9X18 which together are cheaper than a Mauser.

 

[blackduck]

Hey Harry . . .i found some HSCs and HK-4s so i'm not concerned about finding them . . i never considered the browning 1910 . . .can they be serviceable i.e. shooters being that old? . .if that be the case i will look at some old brownings . .they seem nice n' thin . . .what to look for in a browning? . . .MAKs are cool too but i thought they were a bit heavy although i have not handled one

 

[Morgan]

A Colt Mustang or Mustang Pocketlite sounds like it would better fit your criteria.

IMO, it's a better pistol overall, as well.

 

[Texian Pistolero]

I have found that ALL of the guns of this class to be extremely "brutal" in recoil.

I think this is due to the straight blowback design,

and the rather narrow grip fit the the wider hands of most of us,

plus how low on the chubby hand the recoiling slide torments the

fatty skin of the web of our chubby hands.

I think that the Sig 230 is the best of the lot,

but you can do better moving one level up on the evolutionary scale.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

blackduck...Browning 1910 and 1922's were made until the early 80's I believe. So finding a serviceable one shouldn't be a big issue. I have seen only a few of each model for sale recently...in .32 ACP, not in very good shape and over-priced. Was lucky to find a 1910 .380 in near new condition for $400.

I didn't mean to knock the HSc Mauser. If I could find one for the right price I'd buy a second one. It's a classy pistol but for me it's "clunky" in my hand like a BHP and I shoot them both poorly. Buy the Mauser.

 

[mete]

The nicest 380 I ever had was the Remington M51 .Very slim ,lightest recoil of them all [delayed blowback]. The original HSc was in 32 but the on e available in the 70s was 380. The HK-4 is an aluminum frame version of the HSc.Another interesting oldie was tha CZ-24....But today I'd get a SIG.

 

[blackduck]

Morgan, i almost forgot about the little colts . . . .i remember reading about Scott MacDougall who tricked those lil colts up real nice for carry with nice melt jobs and reliability work . . .anybody take up the slack when Macdougall stopped? .they are real pircey though

 

[MICHAEL T]

The Bersa is a good of carry pistol as any on you list and very depenable. I love PPK/S and the Bersa is what the PPK/S wants to be at 1/2 the price. This summer Bersa is coming out with a little smaller 380 for CCW. I have no problem with the present size. Read up about them and you will find a 99% happy owners. Also understand they stand by their lifetime warrentey.

 

[pete f]

my wife carried a mauser hsc for years. worked everytime she shot it a the range and the farm, May I ask why you think the 380 is so good?
for the same weight, you can carry a model 39 smith in real 9 or perhaps one of the baby glocks. or a para ord warthog 9, lighter wieght is miniscule in real life, but i know my wifes HSC was very nearly the same weght as a smith 6906 or 39 full size. part of the reason she changed

 

[blackduck]

Well Pete, i've had 380s before, along w/ 44spl, 45 acp, 357, 38spl, 9mm and i really don't think the 380s are anything but marginal performers. Rather, they are adequate for my needs for lightweight carry around my small office, loaded with frangible or perhaps EFMJ rounds. . .the "Warthog" is just that to me . . .stumpy lil bugger, grip looks girthy and i've got a short index finger . ..so wide pistols, in my opinion lack that certain "gracefullness" ya know . .had a bunch of glocks and considered the grip reduction by arizona response or dane burns but just sold em for something new . .don't like S&W, won't get into it . . .i appreciate your info on the weight of the HSC . .i didn't think it would be heavy . .do you know if it has an alloy frame???? . . .i'll look again at the Warthog, couldn't hurt . .but i know i just won't commit to carrying a 1911 for my purpose if i gotta lug around over 30 oz. all day . . .at home however, full size 1911 or P220 is perfect, at least for me . . .Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

BD, HSc's are all steel. I have one of the Interarms-imported models that I found, neglected, in a pawnshop in 1985. It doesn't get out nearly as much anymore, but when I need a 'little gun' it is the one I pull out of the vault. It digests all the hollowpoint ammunition I've fed it, although it prefers Remington as its steady diet.

The Gamba /Super Gamba wide grip models were, IIRC, made under license from Mauser and in my opinion, are interesting but I never thought they came up to Mauser's level of quality. I've had a couple of Walther pocket pistols but they almost always bit me on the hand, whereas the Mauser, although it has some quirks, never did rip the web of my hand like a PPK will.

The single action trigger pull on mine is pretty good, at maybe 5 pounds, whereas the DA pull is best measured with something equipped with a fifth-wheel hitch. I'm sure it could be adjusted to some degree, but I never have put that high a priority on it. You'll also wreck a thumbnail trying to field strip the thing. Remember to keep an eye on the trigger bar running alongside the grip if you ever take the slide off, too. That caused me an hour or so of confusion one night.

I used to see an occasional HK-4 set at the gun shows 20 years ago; the set with all 4 barrels and mags- .22, .25, .32 and .380. I kick myself for not buying one...or maybe all of them. They were splendid little pistols that would be fine tools. I did run across one at the Adult Daycare and Gunshop I frequent, but there was 'a problem' and it was pulled from the display case and removed from sale moments after I saw it. If I found another HK-4, I'd be tempted to buy it.

The Colts are overall really pretty dependable little pistols. I've seen one of the melted Mustangs and it was a real gem. My oldest's girlfriend has a Gov't. Model that I'd like to trade her out of one of these days and get her a 230/232 to step her up a little. Purely for her own good, you know .

While classy, the Browning 1910/1922 models are not what I'd choose as a pocket pistol, simply because of my preconceived notions on parts breakage and replacement costs, overall length, and the lack of ready holster options for them. I had a Savage 1917 for a little while which ergonomically great suffered from the same problems...I can't sit and wait for Numrich to get one in to obtain replacement parts for it. The Remingtons are slick little pistols, but the safety is a little too small for me to be comfortable with as it has an enclosed hammer within the slide, and I don't do the Israeli manual of arms well.

I apply the same caveat to the Beretta 1934/1935 and the earlier Mauser pocket pistols, too. Great little curios, but I wouldn't carry one as a PDW. YMMV. Same with the CZ models of wartime and pre-war vintage (and I'm speaking of the pre 50 models). Too many broken firing pin risks, and the firing pin retainers are fragile, which could lead to one's eyeball looking like a skewered olive.

The Makarovs are very decent smallish pistols...a little wider than those you've mentioned, but nice, especially if you find one with a .380 chambering. I've yet to see a Wallyworld that carries 9x18, whereas .380 is nearly ubiquitous. Still, I wouldn't let the ammunition scare me away from one if it feels right.

All the Bersa .380s I've fondled were as comfortable to me as any of the above, and the price point is tough to beat. If I were to pick out a .380 to buy, TODAY, it's probably going to be a Bersa, just from sheer availability and price point/value for the dollar. Still, I love my HSc...but then I love the Art Deco design and heritage. If price is not a deal breaker, then I'd go with the SIG 230 for the more modern metallurgy and availability of parts, not that I've ever seen a broken one.

Now, if you really want to skew things, I kinda like the Warthog too, but it ain't a .380 .

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[Combat-wombat]

I have the 232. Lemme tell ya, GREAT gun. with Hogue grips, it's almost an extension of the hand. Everyone who has picked it up loves it because it's perfectly balanced. It just feels great. It hasn't malfunctioned yet and is reasonably accurate. So, I'd suggest that. However, I haven't spent time with any of the other mentioned guns.

 

[blackduck]

Great post SA aka Rabbit . . . .HK-4 , Lil Colt or MAK are still in the running . . .i hear that parts have all but dried up for the Lil colt 380s though . . . . Wombat, i still dig the sig . . .especially the alloy frame w/ night sights.

 

[No_Brakes23]

The P232 is awesome. The bigest problem is the snappy recoil, but after a couple shots it is no big deal. The 3-dot novak style sights make for a quick sight picture, and this is probably the quickest firearm I own for repeat aimed shots. It also fires better at 50 yards than my .45. (Not that you are going to be making 50 yard shots with your CCW.)

Not sure about good conceled carry holsters.

I love this little gun.

 

[Richard]

I have 4 Maks, Sig P230, Walther PP, and a Bersa Thunder 380. My pick? The Bersa Thunder 380. Regards, Richard

 

[blackduck]

this bersa 380 is popping up all over the net as highly recommended . .i have never handled one . . .how wide is it?? . .what kind of reach to trigger compared to the P230?? . . .thanks

 

[GuidoTorpedo]

Best .380 I have ever fired was the CZ83.

The sights seem useless but the little sucker was VERY accurate for me.

they can usually be found for $350 all day long.