I am looking at my next purchase being a little .380 pocket pistol...I am seriously looking at the PPK/s (I believe that it is now made by S&W) or the Sig 232(what is the difference between the 232 and 230?)...While looking I saw a Bersa Thunder .380...I would like to have your experiences with these pistols...I really like Sigs(or I should say my 220) and I have heard that the DA trigger on the PPK/s is awful...No nothing about the Bersa
Sig 232 vs PPK/s vs Bersa Thunder
- Thread starter Karate
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I have actually owned the bersa for 4 years (sold it because I needed the money:banghead: should have kept it!!)
It is a great gun, 100% reliable and accurate..strips in 2 seconds and the trigger pull is kind of better that the one of a stock makarov...IMHO, the bersa is a refined Makarov (I have owned both in .380 acp)
No feedback on the PPK, but I would love to get a SIG! Those little things are the best shooters here in Peru (well, I also love my Glock 25!)
It is a great gun, 100% reliable and accurate..strips in 2 seconds and the trigger pull is kind of better that the one of a stock makarov...IMHO, the bersa is a refined Makarov (I have owned both in .380 acp)
No feedback on the PPK, but I would love to get a SIG! Those little things are the best shooters here in Peru (well, I also love my Glock 25!)
No4Mk1
Member
Sig 232 is fantastic. My "always" CCW. 230 is the older model, not much different.
Everyone I know that has owned a Bersa has been pleased with it and considers it a great value.
General concensus seems to be that the PPK/s is overrated, but I don't know that first hand.
Here is a good recent thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40985&highlight=sig+232
Everyone I know that has owned a Bersa has been pleased with it and considers it a great value.
General concensus seems to be that the PPK/s is overrated, but I don't know that first hand.
Here is a good recent thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40985&highlight=sig+232
Siggyboy
Member
The SIG 230 was officially discontinued and the modified 232 took its place. There were some techincal modifications but I'm not sure what.
The PPK in all its variations is good if you want to pose as James Bond. However, if you ever want to shoot it, get a different gun...one that doesn't slice your hand, have a 15 lbs trigger pull, and cost too much.
The Bersa seems to be a well made gun for the price.
The 232 is a great gun but has a number of negatives: No slide release, European mag release, only holds 7+1 of 380 ACP, the alloy model kicks a bit, is expensive!!!
For the money, I much prefer a Makarov. If I had to get a 380 and was going to mostly carry it, I'd get a Sig 232, though the Bersa is at least worth checking out.
The PPK in all its variations is good if you want to pose as James Bond. However, if you ever want to shoot it, get a different gun...one that doesn't slice your hand, have a 15 lbs trigger pull, and cost too much.
The Bersa seems to be a well made gun for the price.
The 232 is a great gun but has a number of negatives: No slide release, European mag release, only holds 7+1 of 380 ACP, the alloy model kicks a bit, is expensive!!!
For the money, I much prefer a Makarov. If I had to get a 380 and was going to mostly carry it, I'd get a Sig 232, though the Bersa is at least worth checking out.
WvaBill
Member
I've had an Interarms PPK/S since ~80-81. Great little gun. Try the trigger on one first. The DA trigger on mine has virtually no travel prior to breakover. You just keep applying increased pressure and this trigger hasn't moved ..is it ever going to move?...BANG. Really gotta get used to that. Doesn't affect accuracy
. Can't depend on hammer movement when holstering it. I never have used that on any of my weapons, but have read about it.
OTOH, I purchased a P-220 in '93 and traded it off this Spring....for a P-220ST
Love em both. The 232 IMO looks much better than the PPK/S, but I have so much trigger time on the Walther, I can't justify trading it.
Edit to add: I had a Mak in 9mm Mak. Very nice for the price, but I never could get the hang of the Mag release. Traded it for a Bersa which my lil sis got for Christmas b4 moving to prk.
. Can't depend on hammer movement when holstering it. I never have used that on any of my weapons, but have read about it. OTOH, I purchased a P-220 in '93 and traded it off this Spring....for a P-220ST
Love em both. The 232 IMO looks much better than the PPK/S, but I have so much trigger time on the Walther, I can't justify trading it.Edit to add: I had a Mak in 9mm Mak. Very nice for the price, but I never could get the hang of the Mag release. Traded it for a Bersa which my lil sis got for Christmas b4 moving to prk.
10-Ring
Member
Of the 3, I liked shooting the SIG best...but I'm not much of a 380 fan. For roughly the same size, you can easily get a 9mm
I would seriously consider a Bulgarian (or any) Makarov in 9MM Makarov caliber (9x18). It is a much better pistol than the Walther PPK, although it is slightly bigger. I have five Maks. all are flawless. While I don't have the Bersa, all I've read has been good. Of course the Sig is a fine pistol, but will cost a lot more. For the money, the Mak or Bersa are the best choices, IMHO.
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
The SIG P232 is a fantastic little carry gun. Thin, lightweight (the alloy model weighs 16 ounces), very accurate, reliable, and blessed with good sights.
It does have the Euro mag release, which some folks consider a drawback, and it's relatively expensive for a blowback .380.
The Bersa does everything the P232 does, only for a little more than half the money, and it has an American mag release to boot. Sights are inferior to the ones on the SIG, and the fit and finish don't come close, but for a useable carry .380, the Bersa is hard to beat.
Still, the P232 is a pretty little jewel of a pistol, pretty much the King of the Hill in the blowback .380 category.
It does have the Euro mag release, which some folks consider a drawback, and it's relatively expensive for a blowback .380.
The Bersa does everything the P232 does, only for a little more than half the money, and it has an American mag release to boot. Sights are inferior to the ones on the SIG, and the fit and finish don't come close, but for a useable carry .380, the Bersa is hard to beat.
Still, the P232 is a pretty little jewel of a pistol, pretty much the King of the Hill in the blowback .380 category.
Kentucky Rifle
Member In Memoriam
I LIKE the Euro heel type mag release...
Always have. Same as my Seecamp. A friend bought a NIB Sig P230. (Japanese PD pistol over-run.) It even has a safety on the side of the frame.
Flat as a pancake. I may have to have a 232. My regular gun shop has all three flavors in the showcase. (Alloy, SS, Blue) The blue is nice. Kind of a deep, almost black color. Nice. I like .380's.
KR
Always have. Same as my Seecamp. A friend bought a NIB Sig P230. (Japanese PD pistol over-run.) It even has a safety on the side of the frame.
Flat as a pancake. I may have to have a 232. My regular gun shop has all three flavors in the showcase. (Alloy, SS, Blue) The blue is nice. Kind of a deep, almost black color. Nice. I like .380's.
KR
No4Mk1
Member
KR, me too!!
As much as I cringe to admit liking anything "Eurotrash" in nature...
I really like the bottom-release mag now that I am accustomed to it. In fact, I think it is superior to the standard "American" system (flame suit on) with only the H&K USP-style release being superior. Both the "Euro" and "USP Style" (for want of a better term....) allow the individual to drop the magazine without changing the firing grip of the strong hand and can be much faster when learned.
OK, I'm running now.....
As much as I cringe to admit liking anything "Eurotrash" in nature...
I really like the bottom-release mag now that I am accustomed to it. In fact, I think it is superior to the standard "American" system (flame suit on) with only the H&K USP-style release being superior. Both the "Euro" and "USP Style" (for want of a better term....) allow the individual to drop the magazine without changing the firing grip of the strong hand and can be much faster when learned.
OK, I'm running now.....
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
I have no issues with the Euro heel-type mag release, either. It's only fractionally slower than the American-style release.
Another positive aspect: I've never unseated a magazine unintentionally with a heel-type release....done so on a few occasions with the other kind, when the mag release button was bumped.
Another positive aspect: I've never unseated a magazine unintentionally with a heel-type release....done so on a few occasions with the other kind, when the mag release button was bumped.
Marko,
That is a beautiful Sig! Makes me want one also. For .380's, my wife is favoring a Beretta Model 85 Cheetah single stack. A friend has one and its a nice light, small package that is also high quality like the Sig. Lots of choices.
That is a beautiful Sig! Makes me want one also. For .380's, my wife is favoring a Beretta Model 85 Cheetah single stack. A friend has one and its a nice light, small package that is also high quality like the Sig. Lots of choices.
Copperhead
Member
I have had a PPK/S-1 made by S&W for three months. I really like the changes S&W has made to PPK/s. The new longer beavertail has taken away the bite, and some of the edges have been contoured vs. older production models. The fit and finish on my gun is excellent. The feed ramp is highly polished and I have had zero FTF in 300 rounds of JHP & FMJ. Mine shoots to POA with Cor-Bon & Hydro's. DA trigger pull is about 15 lbs. but has little slack and is smooth, the SA is about 3 lbs. The gun has been very accurate, feels great, and has a natural point of aim for me.
I think Smith-Wesson CNC methods of manufacturing have taken a classic design and made it better. The weight is 23 ounces and that is the only thing I would like to see changed (alloy frame would be great).
I think Smith-Wesson CNC methods of manufacturing have taken a classic design and made it better. The weight is 23 ounces and that is the only thing I would like to see changed (alloy frame would be great).
jar
Contributing Member
Another vote for the 230/232. Of all of my guns, the 230 is without a doubt the most intuitive pointer. If you can point your finger at something, you'll hit it with the 230.
My experiences with the Bersa have also been good. I've never owned one but have shot quite a few and all have been reliable and accurate, although the feel and balance really isn't nearly as nice as the little SiG.
Over the years I've owned several PPKs. Every one has been unreliable, terrible trigger and a slice-o-matic. The only way I've ever been able to shoot a PPK withouot it cutting me up is to put duct tape on the webbing between thumb and fingers.
Love my Mak and it has been very, very reliable. These little guns are really well built and the 9mmMak cartridge is more powerful than the 380. But it is also much, much heavier than my alloy 230 and the sights on the Mak are laughable. It's a great gun at the price and I'd suggest everyone lay a couple aside while they are still affordable.
My experiences with the Bersa have also been good. I've never owned one but have shot quite a few and all have been reliable and accurate, although the feel and balance really isn't nearly as nice as the little SiG.
Over the years I've owned several PPKs. Every one has been unreliable, terrible trigger and a slice-o-matic. The only way I've ever been able to shoot a PPK withouot it cutting me up is to put duct tape on the webbing between thumb and fingers.
Love my Mak and it has been very, very reliable. These little guns are really well built and the 9mmMak cartridge is more powerful than the 380. But it is also much, much heavier than my alloy 230 and the sights on the Mak are laughable. It's a great gun at the price and I'd suggest everyone lay a couple aside while they are still affordable.
Had a 232. Outstanding quality. Liked the trigger. The gun gave me slide bite about once every 25 rounds. Different grips might have fixed it, but I went ahead and sold the gun. If I was using the gun for defense, I'd have kept it. It would still be my choice for CCW where a sliced hand is of little significance. But as a plinker, I got tired of putting on bandaids. Have never owned a Walther. Slide bite is an issue for some people with them. Many strings talk about abysmal triggers on them. Currently own a nickel Bersa. Nice gun for CCW. Reliable, light, no slide bite due to mini-beavertail. Quality exceeds the price. Mine, however, shoots high with loads that shot to POA with the 232 and a Beretta .380. Could probably fix it with other loads. If money were of no or little object, I'd go with the SIG.
I have a Sig 232 and formerly owned a 230. Terrific little pistols. Not too long ago I had a chance to buy a NIB Interarms PPK with some anxiety about the problems I have read about. The little PPK has been flawless and amazingly accurate. I would trust the Sigs generically more, but would have complete faith in my personal PPK. Have never owned or fired a Bersa but hear nothing but good about them. Another wonderful .380, but a bit bigger, is the absolutely terrific CZ-83. I would take my CZ over a whole lot of lesser quality small 9mm pistols any day. I just wish I could find full capacity magazines for less than $75 apiece. (I'll suffer with the 10 rounders, thank you very much.)
PCRCCW
Member
Ok..a general overview of the guns you want............
All are of great quality, accuracy and reliability....well mostly. Ill expand on that in a sec......
All are the same "style" or patterned after the Walther style.....Sig/Bersa/FEG/alot of others styled their guns this way too.
The Sig 230 is a great little gun...slick reliable accurate..spendy.
The 232 was Sigs answer to getting the guns into Cal. after the laws changed.....the differences are the grips and a divet here and there.
Just enough to call it a "new model" of the same gun. I love politics.
IMO, they are great..but for the money you can get more gun. OK, Shoot me..I love Sigs but the 230-2 are built a little on the light side and for the size/money....I opt for a Bersa.
The Walther has the style of the ages.......timeless...and with the extended beavertail S&W added...This version may not draw blood on my "Anti Walther PPK/S hand". We can only hope. Reliability is an issue with these guns...and at a high price to boot. The new guns have a good reliability rep. thus far..but the Imports or made in the USA guns before S&W's time were questionable. Just do a search on Interarms Walthers.
Again for the money...Id opt for the Bersa.
The Bersa...slick, accurate, great trigger, sights and everything the Sig is at 1/2 the money...and more than the Walther at the same 1/2.
No....question. Anyone whos shot the 3 and chooses the others....is a brand groupie...... Id take the CZ83 over them all. Wait....I did take the CZ83 over them all......
Shoot well
All are of great quality, accuracy and reliability....well mostly. Ill expand on that in a sec......
All are the same "style" or patterned after the Walther style.....Sig/Bersa/FEG/alot of others styled their guns this way too.
The Sig 230 is a great little gun...slick reliable accurate..spendy.
The 232 was Sigs answer to getting the guns into Cal. after the laws changed.....the differences are the grips and a divet here and there.
Just enough to call it a "new model" of the same gun. I love politics.
IMO, they are great..but for the money you can get more gun. OK, Shoot me..I love Sigs but the 230-2 are built a little on the light side and for the size/money....I opt for a Bersa.
The Walther has the style of the ages.......timeless...and with the extended beavertail S&W added...This version may not draw blood on my "Anti Walther PPK/S hand". We can only hope. Reliability is an issue with these guns...and at a high price to boot. The new guns have a good reliability rep. thus far..but the Imports or made in the USA guns before S&W's time were questionable. Just do a search on Interarms Walthers.
Again for the money...Id opt for the Bersa.
The Bersa...slick, accurate, great trigger, sights and everything the Sig is at 1/2 the money...and more than the Walther at the same 1/2.
No....question. Anyone whos shot the 3 and chooses the others....is a brand groupie......
Id take the CZ83 over them all. Wait....I did take the CZ83 over them all......Shoot well
I have to agree with you. The bersa is a great little gun, and it conceals great!! I always wear jeans and tuck out button shirts (Ok, kind of fitting ones) and that gun dissapears just as magic..also, 13 rounds of .380 is not that bad...(I live in Peru), and getting 3 extra mags is nice.
Good luck
Good luck
No4Mk1
Member
Here's another great alternative....
Oh, wait, that's not a 380 pocket pistol, that's a P7.....
Sorry wrong thread.....
Oh, wait, that's not a 380 pocket pistol, that's a P7.....
Sorry wrong thread.....
PCRCCW
Member
Rogelio,
I take it you have an older Double Stack Bersa model 8?...nice gun.
I like the hi caps my self...my CZ 83 in Mak holds 13+1 and is a bloody shooter. The Bersa 380's here are the little single stacks......
Shoot well
I take it you have an older Double Stack Bersa model 8?...nice gun.
I like the hi caps my self...my CZ 83 in Mak holds 13+1 and is a bloody shooter. The Bersa 380's here are the little single stacks......
Shoot well
Jaco
Member
Just nothing can compare to a REAL Walther PP or PPK in workmanship and accuracy...
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
I'll gladly put my little SIG up against a real PP/PPK in both categories.
Jaco
Member
Won't mind such a comparison at all...
Kentucky Rifle
Member In Memoriam
My friend's P230 is perfect...
Nice. It's a .32ACP instead of a .380, but it's still nice. It kinda surprises me that the Japanese PD picked a .32ACP, but they did. I go over and look at it. I've gone over it with a magnifying glass. I've gotta admit that Sig's are about as perfect as can be. I've just never owned a Sig. (Some of you people will find THAT a surprise, knowing my proclivity for going RIGHT OUT and BUYING when so many people recommend a firearm. I can't help it. I'm a weak man when it comes to fine firearms. ) Anyway, when were P230's discontinued? She bought this one NIB, and it is. I've looked everywhere for signs of use. There aren't any. Even has the test target in the box. I've looked for some nice wood grips. She wants to "fancy the Sig up" a bit, but no joy yet. The problem is the safety lever which is located right behind the decocking lever. Nobody makes grips which allow for that. Come to think of it, I've seen one other .32ACP Sig. A guy who worked at Ray's Indoor Range had it. I don't think it had a safety lever. Hummm.
You take good photos, Marko.
KR
Nice. It's a .32ACP instead of a .380, but it's still nice. It kinda surprises me that the Japanese PD picked a .32ACP, but they did. I go over and look at it. I've gone over it with a magnifying glass. I've gotta admit that Sig's are about as perfect as can be. I've just never owned a Sig. (Some of you people will find THAT a surprise, knowing my proclivity for going RIGHT OUT and BUYING when so many people recommend a firearm. I can't help it. I'm a weak man when it comes to fine firearms.
) Anyway, when were P230's discontinued? She bought this one NIB, and it is. I've looked everywhere for signs of use. There aren't any. Even has the test target in the box. I've looked for some nice wood grips. She wants to "fancy the Sig up" a bit, but no joy yet. The problem is the safety lever which is located right behind the decocking lever. Nobody makes grips which allow for that. Come to think of it, I've seen one other .32ACP Sig. A guy who worked at Ray's Indoor Range had it. I don't think it had a safety lever. Hummm.You take good photos, Marko.
KR
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