SIG Quality Control
- Thread starter bg226
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Crusader103
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It seems that the higher the price of a firearm the worse the customer service, i.e. Sig, H&K, etc. It seems that they often feel that they are so good that their stuff doesn't stink and there is no need to entertain the service. To my understanding, that is just one reason why the Washington State Patrol recently switched from the H&K USP to the S&W M&P. They hadn't had those H&K's for too many years, especially when you compare it to how long they had their previously issued Beretta 92's.
I am speaking of customer service, but I know the OP is speaking of quality off the line. I think the firearms themselves are great.
The mid-range firearms seem to have much better, and sometimes less needed, customer service. At least that's been my experience.
I am speaking of customer service, but I know the OP is speaking of quality off the line. I think the firearms themselves are great.
The mid-range firearms seem to have much better, and sometimes less needed, customer service. At least that's been my experience.
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Bought a current version SIG P232 last summer - excellent pistol with great fit and finish. Previous year bought one of the original Blackwater P226s and again, it is a great gun and very well made and finished.
Those are my only recent experiences with new SIGArms products and I've been extremely pleased with the quality of their guns (my P226, btw, made entirely in the USA, and the P232 slide made in the USA and the pistol assembled in the USA).
I know, an n of 2, but that's been my experience. And I will be adding a new P220 this year sometime too.
Those are my only recent experiences with new SIGArms products and I've been extremely pleased with the quality of their guns (my P226, btw, made entirely in the USA, and the P232 slide made in the USA and the pistol assembled in the USA).
I know, an n of 2, but that's been my experience. And I will be adding a new P220 this year sometime too.
Just bought a P226 and absolutely no problems. I had seen a couple of post about early frame wear, so I have been looking closely. I am at 250 rounds and everything is fine.
Sig is still one of the leading companies. There QC is just as good as ever. I speak from personal experience and do not care for the internet whiners.
For every thousand of satisfied customers, there is a whiner. What's even more funny is that you often only hear from the whiner.
The point is this: say for example, Sig produces 1,000 firearms a year. Out of that 1,000 there is one lemon. Now say for example, Glock produces 10,000 firearms a year, but ONLY 10 lemons. Only 10 lemons out of a whole 10,000! WOW!!
People just fail at fraction.
For every thousand of satisfied customers, there is a whiner. What's even more funny is that you often only hear from the whiner.
The point is this: say for example, Sig produces 1,000 firearms a year. Out of that 1,000 there is one lemon. Now say for example, Glock produces 10,000 firearms a year, but ONLY 10 lemons. Only 10 lemons out of a whole 10,000! WOW!!
People just fail at fraction.
I've owned many Sigs and loved them all. I just bought a little Sig 232 in 380 as a CC. My wifes older 232 has a better finish on the slide and the roll marks are more detailed compared to mine. The build and fit of the new one is the same as the older one. I think they have gone to a Nitron finish on the newer one's but they still call them blue.
Sig Sauers QC has gone down hill since Cohen took over. There are numerous examples of their failures which are not internet rumor or isolated single events. Yes some are exaggerated but there have been many missteps in production under "Cohen's move the metal campaign at Sig. Here is a sampling....
GSR 1911 was a nightmare hit or miss prospect for the first year of their production. If you got one that ran, I did, you got a great gun if you did not you got a paper weight which had to return to sig multiple times to get straight because they had little or no expertise in 1911s.
The CPO spray on black paint issue. At the height of the CPO boom Sig simply sprayed guns with a terrible bake on finish that they did not harden properly and flaked off in the customers hand. shout down the CPO program for a time.
Sig P220 extractor issue on the milled stainless slide. Well know and well documented issue of the internal extractors tolerances being too tight and causing FTF and the final round of a mag not loading. Most who have suffered this failure have had to send their pistols to Sig multiple times to have it corrected. I know I did.
Gailing of the ionized frame by the Nitron finish an milled stainless slide... This is happening more and more these days. Burrs on the slides are destroying frames right out of the box. Prompted Sig to change their factory supplied oil to grease. Run them wet boys or suffer frame damage from hell and back. LOL
Sig 556 rifle came with mismatch finishes and canted rails at it introduction. The need to get the gun to market NOW took priority over getting it right.
P238 recall. Right out of the gate P238 safeties were failing. There are now reports of FTE when the guns hit the 500 round count. Again not just one or two isolated occurrences but multiple reports. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=465162
Sig mosquito the guns still is not right by many peoples accounts. Started out as a $500 22lr is now a $300 gun so they can sell them.
P250 originally designed as a 16 + 1 gun but they could not get the mags to hold 16 downgraded them to 15. Multiple out of the box issues reported FTF, FTE & light strikes. Seems to have been corrected for the most part but they had to drop the price of these guns to move them. Again a $650+ polymer which has been discounted to under $500 because of the initial poor roll out directly related to QC.
Guns are no longer fired at the factory beyond the required rounds for states like MD. They are fired for function only no test targets are included. Less hands and less time on each pistol means more production time = more guns leaving Exeter.
Did I miss any?
As their production number grow their QC is going down hill. I am not saying that if you buy a Sig you are going to get a bad gun. Odds are that you are going to get a great gun but if you are a Sig fan and have paid attention you have seen the change over the last 6 years. They are not the same Sig Sauer they once were. IMHO their failure rate has more than doubled. Moving from something in the .5% range to the 1.5% range which when you are moving hundreds of thousands of pistols and rifles ends up being a lot of defective pieces.
GSR 1911 was a nightmare hit or miss prospect for the first year of their production. If you got one that ran, I did, you got a great gun if you did not you got a paper weight which had to return to sig multiple times to get straight because they had little or no expertise in 1911s.
The CPO spray on black paint issue. At the height of the CPO boom Sig simply sprayed guns with a terrible bake on finish that they did not harden properly and flaked off in the customers hand. shout down the CPO program for a time.
Sig P220 extractor issue on the milled stainless slide. Well know and well documented issue of the internal extractors tolerances being too tight and causing FTF and the final round of a mag not loading. Most who have suffered this failure have had to send their pistols to Sig multiple times to have it corrected. I know I did.
Gailing of the ionized frame by the Nitron finish an milled stainless slide... This is happening more and more these days. Burrs on the slides are destroying frames right out of the box. Prompted Sig to change their factory supplied oil to grease. Run them wet boys or suffer frame damage from hell and back. LOL
Sig 556 rifle came with mismatch finishes and canted rails at it introduction. The need to get the gun to market NOW took priority over getting it right.
P238 recall. Right out of the gate P238 safeties were failing. There are now reports of FTE when the guns hit the 500 round count. Again not just one or two isolated occurrences but multiple reports. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=465162
Sig mosquito the guns still is not right by many peoples accounts. Started out as a $500 22lr is now a $300 gun so they can sell them.
P250 originally designed as a 16 + 1 gun but they could not get the mags to hold 16 downgraded them to 15. Multiple out of the box issues reported FTF, FTE & light strikes. Seems to have been corrected for the most part but they had to drop the price of these guns to move them. Again a $650+ polymer which has been discounted to under $500 because of the initial poor roll out directly related to QC.
Guns are no longer fired at the factory beyond the required rounds for states like MD. They are fired for function only no test targets are included. Less hands and less time on each pistol means more production time = more guns leaving Exeter.
Did I miss any?
As their production number grow their QC is going down hill. I am not saying that if you buy a Sig you are going to get a bad gun. Odds are that you are going to get a great gun but if you are a Sig fan and have paid attention you have seen the change over the last 6 years. They are not the same Sig Sauer they once were. IMHO their failure rate has more than doubled. Moving from something in the .5% range to the 1.5% range which when you are moving hundreds of thousands of pistols and rifles ends up being a lot of defective pieces.
The frame rail thing is way overplayed. Sure, if you don't lube it like you should, you'll wear the rails. But all that came off in that picture was the black stuff. That will have no impact on its function. If you want that to stop, switch to grease.
Once you are past the ionization on the frame you weaken it. It will shorten the life of the frame. That may or may not ever become and issue for you but it still does not change the fact that more and more guns are leaving Sig with burrs that leave these kinds of wear. That particular damage was caused by burr on the slide. No amount of grease is going to stop a burr from GOUGING a frame.
Everytime this comes up Sig apologist jump in and say its over played when in reality it is not. Again I always reference the fact people like Bruce Gray and Gray Guns acknowledge that this is an issue and they see more Sigs a year than most of us will see in a lifetime.
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"Gailing of the ionized frame by the Nitron finish an milled stainless slide..."
I think the word you want is gouging, not galling.
www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=11
"Galling, or cold welding as it is sometimes referred to, is a form of severe adhesive wear. Adhesive wear occurs between two metal surfaces that are in relative motion and under sufficient load to permit the transfer of material. This is a solid-phase welding process. The load must be sufficient, during relative motion, to disrupt the protective oxide layer covering surface asperities of the metal and permit metal to metal contact. Under high stress and poor lubrication conditions, stronger bonds may form over a larger surface area. Large fragments or surface protrusions may be formed and the result is galling of the surfaces. Severe galling can result in the seizure of metal components."
_________
Edited to add: My X-5 has been fine so far. Probably shoots better than the test target.
I think the word you want is gouging, not galling.
www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=11
"Galling, or cold welding as it is sometimes referred to, is a form of severe adhesive wear. Adhesive wear occurs between two metal surfaces that are in relative motion and under sufficient load to permit the transfer of material. This is a solid-phase welding process. The load must be sufficient, during relative motion, to disrupt the protective oxide layer covering surface asperities of the metal and permit metal to metal contact. Under high stress and poor lubrication conditions, stronger bonds may form over a larger surface area. Large fragments or surface protrusions may be formed and the result is galling of the surfaces. Severe galling can result in the seizure of metal components."
_________
Edited to add: My X-5 has been fine so far. Probably shoots better than the test target.
Same difference. It is an issue with Sigs and the fact they are not properly finishing them at the factory. They are leaving with burrs on them which GOUGING the frames shortening their life span right out of the box regardless of what lubrication was used on the slide and the rails.
http://grayguns.com/guide-to-sig-sauer-pistol-inspection/
1. Dull Black – No wear, perfect finish.
2. Shiny Black – Slight wearing in of the pigment in the anodizing, this is normal after around 200 rounds.
3. Dark Gold/Orange – The pigment in the anodizing is starting to wear, this is perfectly normal and not a problem, the metal is still protected and your frame is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds.
4. Bright Gold – The pigment in the anodizing is wearing in. Your frame is still protected and your gun is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase and remain static from here on out as long as proper lubrication is used.
5. Light Gold – The pigment in your anodizing is wearing through, your frame is still protected, but you should keep an eye on it.
6. Shiny Silver – This is where you need to start to worry. The pigment in the anodizing is worn through, your frame is still protected, but you need to monitor your frame rails very closely and make sure they remain greased thoroughly for the rest of your gun’s life.
7. Dull Silver – You’re screwed. Your anodizing has worn completely through in the areas you see dull anodizing. From here on your frame is unprotected and it’s time to buy a new gun. It may still shoot and function perfectly, but your frame rails will continue to wear at a much accelerated rate.
To add Sigs have always shown some wear at the ends of frame. This was common in older P series guns before the Milled Nitron slides. It often looked like this. The wear would occur get to a point and stop. This has always been a criticism against Sig guns even the old school W. German ones which the pic below is. It is an all German gun with a date code KE which means it was manufactured in 1994. Sig always argued that this was part of the break in process and that the wear would cease before removing the ionizing on the frame which is my experience is true.
The difference I am seeing in the gouging or possible Galling LOL is that the recent examples are in the rails channels and upon closer inspection there almost always is a burr present which is causing the excessive wear which should have been detected by QC before it left the factory. The burr is digging into the frame and the hardness of the Nitron finish which Sig currently uses is acceleration and exacerbating the process. These days the wear does not stop like it did in the past. It continues to dig into the frame deeper and deeper. I have seen more and more New sigs with dull silver gouging which means the ionizing is gone. This is not happening on every Sig but IMHO it is happening on too many Sigs. YMMV.
http://grayguns.com/guide-to-sig-sauer-pistol-inspection/
1. Dull Black – No wear, perfect finish.
2. Shiny Black – Slight wearing in of the pigment in the anodizing, this is normal after around 200 rounds.
3. Dark Gold/Orange – The pigment in the anodizing is starting to wear, this is perfectly normal and not a problem, the metal is still protected and your frame is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds.
4. Bright Gold – The pigment in the anodizing is wearing in. Your frame is still protected and your gun is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase and remain static from here on out as long as proper lubrication is used.
5. Light Gold – The pigment in your anodizing is wearing through, your frame is still protected, but you should keep an eye on it.
6. Shiny Silver – This is where you need to start to worry. The pigment in the anodizing is worn through, your frame is still protected, but you need to monitor your frame rails very closely and make sure they remain greased thoroughly for the rest of your gun’s life.
7. Dull Silver – You’re screwed. Your anodizing has worn completely through in the areas you see dull anodizing. From here on your frame is unprotected and it’s time to buy a new gun. It may still shoot and function perfectly, but your frame rails will continue to wear at a much accelerated rate.
To add Sigs have always shown some wear at the ends of frame. This was common in older P series guns before the Milled Nitron slides. It often looked like this. The wear would occur get to a point and stop. This has always been a criticism against Sig guns even the old school W. German ones which the pic below is. It is an all German gun with a date code KE which means it was manufactured in 1994. Sig always argued that this was part of the break in process and that the wear would cease before removing the ionizing on the frame which is my experience is true.
The difference I am seeing in the gouging or possible Galling LOL is that the recent examples are in the rails channels and upon closer inspection there almost always is a burr present which is causing the excessive wear which should have been detected by QC before it left the factory. The burr is digging into the frame and the hardness of the Nitron finish which Sig currently uses is acceleration and exacerbating the process. These days the wear does not stop like it did in the past. It continues to dig into the frame deeper and deeper. I have seen more and more New sigs with dull silver gouging which means the ionizing is gone. This is not happening on every Sig but IMHO it is happening on too many Sigs. YMMV.
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I bought a Sig SCM which is a 556 new last July. I have about 2k rounds through it now and couldn't be more happy with my purchase. Its been 100% reliable and is quite accurite for what it is, and has the recoil of a .22LR. I have been slowly making it more Swiss and less AR, I just need to change out the lower and its done.
The only issue I had when I first got it was with the Sig mags which are horrible POS. I sold them on to someone else who wanted to take a chance for $5. With Pmags its 100%.
I will probably take it to the Appleseed this summer if the FN49 doesn't come up to speed. Its the only semi that I have that I know will burn through whatever ammo I can feed it in a weekend without a hiccup.
The only issue I had when I first got it was with the Sig mags which are horrible POS. I sold them on to someone else who wanted to take a chance for $5. With Pmags its 100%.
I will probably take it to the Appleseed this summer if the FN49 doesn't come up to speed. Its the only semi that I have that I know will burn through whatever ammo I can feed it in a weekend without a hiccup.
I own 2 Sigs only had one very small problem .
They fixed it free and paid shipping.
Out & Back in 2 to 3 weeks.
They fixed it free and paid shipping.
Out & Back in 2 to 3 weeks.
And what was the issue? Should it have been caught by the initial QC at the factory? 50% is not a great track record IMHO LOL.....
I've had two "classic" German-made SIGs (P220, P228) and an American-made P239, all purchased in the mid 1990s. These ran flawlessly. Then I got a Revolution Carry 1911 in 2007, which was a piece of crap. At least they voluntarily stepped up to the plate and replaced it. Whether this is typical of all new SIG products I can't say. I do think it fair to say that it is not the company of old which concentrated on making a few products well.
All my SIGS, which are manufactured from early 90's to 2008 fit and finish are imaculate and all have been 100% reliable..
rscalzo
Member
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This is true only for the old discontinued model. the new P250 9mm is different and some parts (frame) are not interchangeable.
Function test? Yes. But I've never received a test target from any manufacturer. I've purchased new Colts, S&W, Springfield, Walther and Glockall new over the years and never once did I get a test target.
I guess you never bought an old school Sig or higher end 1911.
Keep defending. The P250 is a failure at this point. It was a gimmick with a long trigger with a slow reset. They have yet to deliver on the interchangeable frames. You are also wrong about it only being the older frames. Look at this. Its the brand new compact with the solid backstrap for $500 Delivered... http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_28/products_id/52438
Subcompact for a $1 less : http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_28/products_id/57636
The older ones are blowing out a $426 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_28/products_id/60686
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Old school SIG's were great... but recent experience on quality control on some of their new stuff have been less then impressive. MR556, P220/226 22LR conversions kits. Will be hesistant on purchasing another one anytime soon. We'll see.
I love my West German P226, but I don't think I will be buying anything from Exter soon, to many horror stories... even on sigforum.
I have 3 of the Sig P232SL variety. Wonderful items across the board. Proven design.
Sig P238 - 100% POS. Seriously, that my be perceived as an internet whiner, but 1,400 rounds at my expense and 4 trips to Sig CS, that would NOT return calls, on hold over an hour etc. Give me a break. Probably mostly the P238, without question, but NEVER fixed, finally after many months got a replacement that has remained NIB.
If given the choice I would find an older model that I wanted before I would try something new.
Sig P238 - 100% POS. Seriously, that my be perceived as an internet whiner, but 1,400 rounds at my expense and 4 trips to Sig CS, that would NOT return calls, on hold over an hour etc. Give me a break. Probably mostly the P238, without question, but NEVER fixed, finally after many months got a replacement that has remained NIB.
If given the choice I would find an older model that I wanted before I would try something new.
at least Sig jumped on the band wagon and started offering a Lifetime warranty versus the 5 year they used to.
I have purchased 3 sigs within the ast year
P226 Blackwater, P220 Elite Dark, and 5.56 Pistol. Quality of each was excelelnt, and performance has been flawless. I have my 4th Sig on order, P220 Elite Stainless.
P226 Blackwater, P220 Elite Dark, and 5.56 Pistol. Quality of each was excelelnt, and performance has been flawless. I have my 4th Sig on order, P220 Elite Stainless.
I've bought 2 more Sig's since my last post.
A 15 y/o P229 in .40 cal.
And a new Sig Pro 2022 ( a really good gun).
Both have be flawless in my visits to the range.
A 15 y/o P229 in .40 cal.
And a new Sig Pro 2022 ( a really good gun).
Both have be flawless in my visits to the range.
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