mgregg85
Member
Sorry, had a little double post somehow.
Sig Sauer quality is way down
- Thread starter the_skunk
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BrainOnSigs
Member
I own 12 Sigs....all P-series.....most pre 2000....finest handguns I have ever owned.
I'll agree that SIG went off the deep end once they messed with their bread and butter P-series.
Their foray into 1911s (sorry....Matt McLearn is a shooter...not a project manager), the civie version of the 551/552 (the 556...GEEZ...we wanted the 551/552 folder right out of the gate)......Sig Mosquito (zinc slide, safety on slide....tactical rail.....won't shoot cheap ammo........just like the bug....annoying).....plus their 500 different versions of the P-series....Elite, Tactical Elite, Blackwater, Rainbow slide, etc. etc, etc.....left many SIG owners scratching their collective heads.
I'll agree that SIG went off the deep end once they messed with their bread and butter P-series.
Their foray into 1911s (sorry....Matt McLearn is a shooter...not a project manager), the civie version of the 551/552 (the 556...GEEZ...we wanted the 551/552 folder right out of the gate)......Sig Mosquito (zinc slide, safety on slide....tactical rail.....won't shoot cheap ammo........just like the bug....annoying).....plus their 500 different versions of the P-series....Elite, Tactical Elite, Blackwater, Rainbow slide, etc. etc, etc.....left many SIG owners scratching their collective heads.
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rellascout
member
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I guess the question then becomes are they selling more now then they were when they built them like we like them.
Unfortunately I think it is more now. They have scored a lot of mid sized Govt contracts. They have brought production in house and are running a lot of metal down the pipe. From a business side of the things Sig is growing. I think they are selling more pistols now than ever but I am not sure what profits look like because I am not an owner. IIRC it is a privately held company.
Odds are way in your favor of getting a good gun out of Sig these days with the following noted exceptions, Sig Mosquito, 556 Russian, P238 & recently the Sig Pro SP2022, QC out of the box is probably within 2% points of the good old days. If they are broke they fix them even if it takes two trips.
Are they as good as they used to be? No are they horrible no... You have to look at them and judge them against the rest of the market. They used to be worth the extra money... You have to choose if that is still the case.
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BigN
Member
The Sig prices aren't going down as quickly as the quality apparently is. I haven't owned one so I can't say but as far as Taurus is concerned, you better stick with the Sig, regardless of the price...(I do own a Taurus so I speak from a miserable experience)
BrainOnSigs
Member
rellascout...thanks for reminding me of the Mosquito cluster.....
rellascout
member
The problem with the 556 was that WE wanted a 552 but they could not sell a 552 to the LEO market. So they had to market the 556 and work back. It is still not the same rifle IMHO. Since they have the production almost... I think they should produce real 552, maybe 500 hundred a year. That would keep a lot of purist happy.
I think that is what they are doing with the P210. Which I think is cool. not sure how many they are going to sell but....
More and more these days I think the old school Sig guy is on the wrong side of the equation.
Best firearm decision I made recently was a Kahr CW9 for concealed carry. Accurate, well made, very light, extremely thin and reliable.
Worst firearm decision ever made: Selling my 2005 (I think - maybe 2003 or 2004, but bought new) Sig P239, with West German made frame. I would never part with that firearm if I ever had the opportunity to get it back. Never. It was built like a tank, was utterly reliable, had amazing fit and finish, and...well...I don't think it's replaceable now unless I wanted to spend major $$$. People with the W. German frame P239s are very reluctant to part with them.
Worst firearm decision ever made: Selling my 2005 (I think - maybe 2003 or 2004, but bought new) Sig P239, with West German made frame. I would never part with that firearm if I ever had the opportunity to get it back. Never. It was built like a tank, was utterly reliable, had amazing fit and finish, and...well...I don't think it's replaceable now unless I wanted to spend major $$$. People with the W. German frame P239s are very reluctant to part with them.
GreyCoupe
Member
Santa brought me a p226 Allround in .40 S&W this year, and I am wowed by it. Fit, finish, out of the box accuracy, performance. All stainless steel, made in Germany. It is a solid handgun. I expect it will last several lifetimes.
Grease it and go!
Grease it and go!
Western Europeans don't open factories or assembly plants in United States to make better products just to bring price of assembly or manufacture down. I give companies like Zeiss lot of credit for making quality products affordable to Joe average unlike American companies making stuff in China charging us outrageous prices and pocketing extra profits for themselves. I would much rather pay my hard earned money for FNH from South Carolina and give American job then Springfield Armory XP made in Croatia. Incredibly the retail price is about the same. It's sad to see others overpaying for stuff from across the ocean.
Sig makes some great guns but the P238 has teething problems, the Mosqiuto is problematic, and the recent P232s have a bad breech face, and jamming is a problem.
So, the 232 is a 70 yr old design (PPK,Bersa, Makarov, FEG, etc) ..... there have been 10 million clones, but the recent P232s are problematic.
So, the 232 is a 70 yr old design (PPK,Bersa, Makarov, FEG, etc) ..... there have been 10 million clones, but the recent P232s are problematic.
My P229 pistols have worked as well as my West German P220, which is to say perfectly reliably. Eight SIGs, all reliable. Half of my Glocks had problems of some kind. All of my Kimbers had minor to major issues. I had mixed success with other 1911s. The only auto pistols to perform as reliably as my SIGs, in a product sample of several pistols, were my several 3rd-Generation S&W autos.
To be clear, I am talking about "classic" SIGs, not the 238 and 1911 experiments, which never should have happened, IMHO. I also find the P232 rather irrelevant, being too big for such a puny cartridge, but the few I know who own them, like them.
I am sure some SIGs have problems/issues, but mine are A-OK. SIGs will do to ride the river with, to paraphrase an old border lawman saying.
To be clear, I am talking about "classic" SIGs, not the 238 and 1911 experiments, which never should have happened, IMHO. I also find the P232 rather irrelevant, being too big for such a puny cartridge, but the few I know who own them, like them.
I am sure some SIGs have problems/issues, but mine are A-OK. SIGs will do to ride the river with, to paraphrase an old border lawman saying.
your Sig is one of the understated handguns on the market today. imo it measures up.
i prefer the older w german/german Sigs but the Pro Series is a good example of some of the good stuff being made today.
Jonah71
Member
I traded my 1980 Sig P-6 9mm. Big mistake! I've decided to look for another one.Get yourself an old West German SIG-SAUER; you will thank me later~!
rellascout
member
Keep an eye on the SP2022 in 40 & 357 Sig. The new ones coming out of the Exter have had some recent reports of issues.
JohnBT
Member
"I am sure some SIGs have problems/issues"
I believe Bruce Gray @ Grayguns has finally found someone to manufacture his redesigned internal extractor for guns like my X-5 TAC TB.
SIG still hasn't answered the question about why they didn't fix it themselves. I guess in their world view their stuff don't stink.
_____
from sigforum...
April 12, 2011 07:17 PM
I had the unique opportunity to shoot the gun with the prototype extractor in it and I have to say that I'm impressed at how well it works.
The brass was kicking up and out so fast that I had 5 rounds in the air before I knew it.
This extractor should take care of most all extraction issues with the internal extractor Sigs.
Scott
I believe Bruce Gray @ Grayguns has finally found someone to manufacture his redesigned internal extractor for guns like my X-5 TAC TB.
SIG still hasn't answered the question about why they didn't fix it themselves. I guess in their world view their stuff don't stink.
_____
from sigforum...
April 12, 2011 07:17 PM
I had the unique opportunity to shoot the gun with the prototype extractor in it and I have to say that I'm impressed at how well it works.
The brass was kicking up and out so fast that I had 5 rounds in the air before I knew it.
This extractor should take care of most all extraction issues with the internal extractor Sigs.
Scott
I don't like the direction SIG has been going for the last few years with all the glitz, rails, beavertails, and rainbow. That's probably saved me some $$ tho' and they are in business to make money, not satisfy SIG purists. However, I have a SIG P229 SAS2 in DAK that is as good as anything I've seen over the last few years (after I replaced the new thin trigger). It's not my favorite SIG because I like .45s. I have an older SIG P220 SAS DAK (with internal extractor) that is accurate, reliable and a great handgun. I have a German P220 and P245 (nuff said). Having said all the above I recently purchased a new SIG P220. It was born Jan 2011. No rail, no beavertail, old style trigger and reset. It came with SIG night sights and is reminiscent of the older SIGs. I took them all to the range yesterday and the new P220 is a keeper. It had a better trigger and was more accurate than any of the others. I have had SIGs for years and have never had a malfunction -- period. I do lube them the way they should be lubed and i shoot the heck out of them. The only times I have dealt with SIG customer service is when using their custom shop. Their service was always great to me. Not trying to argue, just reflecting my experience. Here's my new P220 born Jan 2011.
jeffbob
Member
Sig 220 broke after 20 rounds
Hi
I had a brand new Sig p220 Marksman with the long barrel that was supposed to be for target shooting. I shot 20 rounds and all of a sudden I could not pull the trigger etc.
I took the gun apart and found that the disconnect had become bent after 20 rounds. I bent that back to the proper configuration and removed all burrs and now the pistol works fine.
I can look up the part #'s that I have forgotten, but the problem was on the right side up top. Sorry, I have forgotten and am working out of town so I am little help.
Thanks
Jeff
Hi
I had a brand new Sig p220 Marksman with the long barrel that was supposed to be for target shooting. I shot 20 rounds and all of a sudden I could not pull the trigger etc.
I took the gun apart and found that the disconnect had become bent after 20 rounds. I bent that back to the proper configuration and removed all burrs and now the pistol works fine.
I can look up the part #'s that I have forgotten, but the problem was on the right side up top. Sorry, I have forgotten and am working out of town so I am little help.
Thanks
Jeff
06
Member
Have absolutely no complaints with my 232 380. Smooth, accurate, and fast. Looking for it's brother. There are certainly "lemons" in everything mechanical--and also in us humans. One cannot expect absolute perfection. What one can expect is a small percentage of error.
JohnBT
Member
That's the complaint, Sig used to have a small percentage of errors year in and year out. Now the numbers have blossomed. And it's not just production errors, it's the design blunders that have ruined Sig's once elite reputation for reliable function.
I suppose that's what you get when you hire Kimber's former boss. I hope they're happy.
John
I suppose that's what you get when you hire Kimber's former boss. I hope they're happy.
John
trex1310
Member
First, I'm not a Sig expert and have only owned 2, a P229 Equinox and a
P238. The P229 was a jam-o-matic from day 1, no matter the ammo,
the magazine, etc. I traded it in on a Springfield XDM .45. The XDM is
flawless. BTW I sent the Sig back 2 times. It was never repaired to
stop the jamming. This was my experience and I have no axe to grind,
it's just what happened to me.
P238. The P229 was a jam-o-matic from day 1, no matter the ammo,
the magazine, etc. I traded it in on a Springfield XDM .45. The XDM is
flawless. BTW I sent the Sig back 2 times. It was never repaired to
stop the jamming. This was my experience and I have no axe to grind,
it's just what happened to me.
I just got my first sig, a 1979 P-6 and I just love the feel of the gun. It shoots high (something Ill probably post about later) but I still love it. Got it for$200 with '09 trijicons and old style hogue grips. Anytime I'm looking to strengthen my finger for DA trigger pulls its my go to gun. ( Those who have one know exactly what I'm talking about ). It always amazes me how clean the SA break is. I now have my sights set on an X-5.
Now I'm not claiming to know any information about the company and it's manufacturing, but any time you move production theres bound to be intermittent issues as things settle in. Also, don't forget that even if it is only about 2% of sigs with problems, the more sigs going out each there, the larger that 2% becomes! Let's say sig was putitng out 5,000 guns to civilian shelves three years ago, at 2% thats still a hundred guns on shelves that have problems. By any stroke of luck, five of us on these forums could purchase those guns and all of a sudden SIG quality has gone down the drain. Hence the importance of good CS when QC can't be 100% perfect. I'm betting sig makes a lot more that 5,000 guns a year so if it is about 2% that have problems, theres hundreds of them out there with problems waiting to happen. Same as with any other manufacturers products. Doesn't mean they're not as good as they used to be or suddenly sig makes poor products.
That said, the new ones sure don't feel as good as my P-6!
Now I'm not claiming to know any information about the company and it's manufacturing, but any time you move production theres bound to be intermittent issues as things settle in. Also, don't forget that even if it is only about 2% of sigs with problems, the more sigs going out each there, the larger that 2% becomes! Let's say sig was putitng out 5,000 guns to civilian shelves three years ago, at 2% thats still a hundred guns on shelves that have problems. By any stroke of luck, five of us on these forums could purchase those guns and all of a sudden SIG quality has gone down the drain. Hence the importance of good CS when QC can't be 100% perfect. I'm betting sig makes a lot more that 5,000 guns a year so if it is about 2% that have problems, theres hundreds of them out there with problems waiting to happen. Same as with any other manufacturers products. Doesn't mean they're not as good as they used to be or suddenly sig makes poor products.
That said, the new ones sure don't feel as good as my P-6!
JTQ
Member
What model is that 220? I haven't seen new production without a rail, though I admit I'm just a casual Sig observer. Is the front strap serrated?
i've got a w german P220 .45 ACP and it's waiting for it's stablemate; w german P220-E .45 ACP that sits in layaway.I don't like the direction SIG has been going for the last few years with all the glitz, rails, beavertails, and rainbow. That's probably saved me some $$ tho' and they are in business to make money, not satisfy SIG purists. However, I have a SIG P229 SAS2 in DAK that is as good as anything I've seen over the last few years (after I replaced the new thin trigger). It's not my favorite SIG because I like .45s. I have an older SIG P220 SAS DAK (with internal extractor) that is accurate, reliable and a great handgun. I have a German P220 and P245 (nuff said). Having said all the above I recently purchased a new SIG P220. It was born Jan 2011. No rail, no beavertail, old style trigger and reset. It came with SIG night sights and is reminiscent of the older SIGs. I took them all to the range yesterday and the new P220 is a keeper. It had a better trigger and was more accurate than any of the others. I have had SIGs for years and have never had a malfunction -- period. I do lube them the way they should be lubed and i shoot the heck out of them. The only times I have dealt with SIG customer service is when using their custom shop. Their service was always great to me. Not trying to argue, just reflecting my experience. Here's my new P220 born Jan 2011.
congratulations on your P220; nice looking gun.
jrdavidson
Member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2011
- Messages
- 22
I disagree
I have 6 Sigs in the safe right now. While most are the older German folded steel slides with no rails (I don't like doodad add-ons), several are the newer stamped slide models assembled in the US. I even have several police trade-ins (US and European) and they are every bit as solid as my new guns (after I replaced their springs).
The complaints I see in this thread are mostly from people who a) hear of someone else's problem with a Sig, or b) clearly did not lube/maintain their Sig adequately, or c) got a lemon - which happens to all manufacturers from time to time.
My Sigs are rock solid reliable, easy to shoot, and supremely crafted, but I still maintain them with care. There are armorer CDs available to inform the new user in the finer points of dissassembly and cleaning. Once you do it, its second nature. I believe that being able to maintain a handgun is part of the owner/operator's responsibility for personal and social safety.
I've owned Taurii before and I don't prefer them. My son's Taurus Beretta clone has poorer ergonomics than my Sigs (mostly Beretta's fault since they made the original design), but it shoots well enough. The Taurus lifetime warranty is great, but you have to ship it to Miami (and possibly on to Brazil) to make a claim - as my son did when his mag release spring escaped and he could not find parts locally or online.
I have 6 Sigs in the safe right now. While most are the older German folded steel slides with no rails (I don't like doodad add-ons), several are the newer stamped slide models assembled in the US. I even have several police trade-ins (US and European) and they are every bit as solid as my new guns (after I replaced their springs).
The complaints I see in this thread are mostly from people who a) hear of someone else's problem with a Sig, or b) clearly did not lube/maintain their Sig adequately, or c) got a lemon - which happens to all manufacturers from time to time.
My Sigs are rock solid reliable, easy to shoot, and supremely crafted, but I still maintain them with care. There are armorer CDs available to inform the new user in the finer points of dissassembly and cleaning. Once you do it, its second nature. I believe that being able to maintain a handgun is part of the owner/operator's responsibility for personal and social safety.
I've owned Taurii before and I don't prefer them. My son's Taurus Beretta clone has poorer ergonomics than my Sigs (mostly Beretta's fault since they made the original design), but it shoots well enough. The Taurus lifetime warranty is great, but you have to ship it to Miami (and possibly on to Brazil) to make a claim - as my son did when his mag release spring escaped and he could not find parts locally or online.
codefour
Member
SIGS Quality Not Questionable
I have owned and fired a many Sig Sauer pistols. All of them are or were the P series in either 220, 226, 228, or 229.
I have never ran into a bad Sig pistol. Once in a while, the springs will wear out and loose their eslasticity but it is a maintenance item on any auto loader.
At work, our issue Glock 22's are starting to have serious problems after they were fired for 10,00 rounds and it was not maintenance issues (ie: springs). The polymer frames were just wearing out. Both trigger block pin holes were rounding out and the plastic was worn through causing the pins to fall out freely. Sorry, I went out on a tangent and this was not meant to hijack the thread into a Sig vs Glock.
Never had those problems with a Sig. Failures to fire, feed, extract, RARELY happen on Sigs and they were usually fault of the operator.
I have owned and fired a many Sig Sauer pistols. All of them are or were the P series in either 220, 226, 228, or 229.
I have never ran into a bad Sig pistol. Once in a while, the springs will wear out and loose their eslasticity but it is a maintenance item on any auto loader.
At work, our issue Glock 22's are starting to have serious problems after they were fired for 10,00 rounds and it was not maintenance issues (ie: springs). The polymer frames were just wearing out. Both trigger block pin holes were rounding out and the plastic was worn through causing the pins to fall out freely. Sorry, I went out on a tangent and this was not meant to hijack the thread into a Sig vs Glock.
Never had those problems with a Sig. Failures to fire, feed, extract, RARELY happen on Sigs and they were usually fault of the operator.
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