Sig Sauer quality is way down

[rellascout]

Never had those problems with a Sig. Failures to fire, feed, extract, RARELY happen on Sigs and they were usually fault of the operator.

Wrong! Look around and do the research and you will find many first hand accounts which contradict your statement.

Sig has had these exact issues on the P238, P220 (Milled stainless slide w/internal extractor), SP2022, Sig P250 & Mosquito etc... These are not just IO errors they are design issues with the pistols some of which have been corrected by Sig.

 

[Storm]

These are not just IO errors they are design issues with the pistols some of which have been corrected by Sig.

Very true. Look at the SIG P250. If you compare the 1st Gen guns to the ones being produced today the gun has pretty much gone through a a complete overhaul.

I'm not quite sure when it became anywhere near to acceptable to put out a gun and expect your customers to be beta testers. Yes, I know that other companies have done it, but other companies aren't SIG. There seems to be a rush to get a gun to market. In certain cases this is where SIG has shot themselves in the foot. Even when a gun is eventually straightened out (as in the P250) the stink of an early lousy reputation continues to follow it.

Get it right the first time. The motto seems to have become "To hell and back to SIG" with newer offerings.

 

[IkenI]

It's a 220-45-BSS-RG, UPC 7 98681 42815 1. Serrated strap. According to a couple of sellers it was a limited run that may have been from a canceled order. Of course, I've heard that before. There are still some out there available. Photos have shown the new thin trigger but mine came with the older standard trigger which I prefer. I like it more and more ever time I shoot it.

 

[rellascout]

It's a 220-45-BSS-RG, UPC 7 98681 42815 1. Serrated strap. According to a couple of sellers it was a limited run that may have been from a canceled order. Of course, I've heard that before. There are still some out there available. Photos have shown the new thin trigger but mine came with the older standard trigger which I prefer. I like it more and more ever time I shoot it.

I bet they found some old frames and built these on them.

 

[the_skunk]

That's the complaint, Sig used to have a small percentage of errors year in and year out. Now the numbers have blossomed. And it's not just production errors, it's the design blunders that have ruined Sig's once elite reputation for reliable function.

I suppose that's what you get when you hire Kimber's former boss. I hope they're happy.

John

I had a seecamp jamming, sent it in, and it came back perfect. Larry Seecamp designed the gun, made over 70,000, and knows every quirk (99% stems from ammo problems).

My Sig p232 was jamming every other shell, and I sent it in and no one at Sig had any idea what the problem was. $900 later the gun sits in a safe, and I refuse to spend another nickel on it.

Previously I owned a Sig 226 and it was flawless from day one. But, after the 232 fiasco, I just wouldn't buy any Sig.

 

[gmh1013]

My SIGS are the best auto's Ive ever owned

My SP2022 and P229 have never had one problem out of thousands of rounds.
If you want to bash some auto's......dont get me started on Glocks

 

[JTQ]

It's a 220-45-BSS-RG, UPC 7 98681 42815 1. Serrated strap. According to a couple of sellers it was a limited run that may have been from a canceled order. Of course, I've heard that before. There are still some out there available. Photos have shown the new thin trigger but mine came with the older standard trigger which I prefer. I like it more and more ever time I shoot it.

Thanks for the reply. It is a good looking pistol. That model is what it would take for me to jump on the Sig bandwagon.

 

[ttheel]

Dont know about the new ones but my German made P228 is one fine pistol. It is one I never see myself parting with.

 

[rtz]

One cannot expect absolute perfection.

H&K?

What model is that 220?

This one?

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/220_gen_2.html

 

[the_skunk]

Sig Sauer is interested in expanded sales for a stock offering. What used to be the best gun on the market is now just a commodity, with too many being rushed out the door.

 

[wally]

I have owned and fired a many Sig Sauer pistols. All of them are or were the P series in either 220, 226, 228, or 229.

I have never ran into a bad Sig pistol.

You've not shot a GSR or a P238.

My P238 has been shall we say problematic. My P226 and P220R are top notch.

 

[Dogguy]

What is different about SIGs now as opposed to the German SIGs of the 1970s and 1980s?

The Internet.

...and the fact that The Internet makes every forum member and You Tube poster an immediate "expert" on what he has to say.

 

[rellascout]

What is different about SIGs now as opposed to the German SIGs of the 1970s and 1980s?

The Internet.

...and the fact that The Internet makes every forum member and You Tube poster an immediate "expert" on what he has to say.

This is not true. Take a P226 for example. It is not the same gun it was in even in the 1990s. The construction has changed. They have cheapened the materials used to build the pistol. In the 1980s and 1990s ZERO MIM. Now you cannot name a Sig pistol without MIM parts.

Now we can debate if it matters. We can debate if they are still as reliable as they used to be. However, there is no debate that the pistols have been cheapened as far as materials and production methods are concerned. They have changed the classic P series guns to attain a higher level of economy of scale. This is a great business move for the company but great business moves are not always great for the quality of the product. The only part on a current production Exeter P226 which you can argue is made of better materials is the slide which is no longer folded carbon steel but is milled stainless. Even this is a point of debate because a lot of people like the balance on the older gun.

A great example of the changes in Sigs mentality is the SP2022 which since being brought into the US in late 2010 is now showing problems it never had when it was produced exclusively in German. Now there are reports of the 9mms needing NATO spec ammo to be broken in and there are numerous reports of feeding problems with the .357 Sig & 40 S&W. All of these issues appeared after changes to the pistol and when production moved to Exter.

Yes the internet gets info out there to more people but please do not use it as a excuse for Sigs changes.

 

[the_skunk]

A great example of the changes in Sigs mentality is the SP2022 which since being brought into the US in late 2010 is now showing problems it never had when it was produced exclusively in German. Now there are reports of the 9mms needing NATO spec ammo to be broken in and there are numerous reports of feeding problems with the .357 Sig & 40 S&W

This is why guys like Larry Seecamp, and Rohrbaugh, are treasured gun manufacturers. You look at the machining, and everything is grade-A. and the factory can solve a problem.

The guys at Sig have no concept of what I am talking about. Gun factories need machinists, gun smiths, and gun owners working there.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

In general, I am cynnical of new models of any firearms by any company. Without a decade of market exposure you just don't know what the long term reliability will be of a new firearm design. It doesn't mean I won't own one, it just means I am unlikely to have it serve any role other than a social plinker.

 

[distra]

My new ultra compact P250 is running great. Nice DAO trigger, eats everything I feed it and passed my carry tests for reliability. It would be nice to get a shorter reset on the trigger, but that has nothing to do with quality. I know the P238's have had some major problems and would not think about buying a mosquito, but the other lines seem to be doing fine.

 

[Effigy]

I bought a P220 Combat (made in Exeter) late last year and it's been running great. I think the trigger is very smooth; in SA it has a stage with almost no resistance, then a clean break. Great fit and finish as well. I've put over 2000 rounds through it so far. I also bought the rimfire conversion slide, which hasn't been flawless but still good. I've put about 600 rounds of .22 through that, about 50/50 split of CCI MiniMags and Federal bulk box, and had ~20 failures (mostly FTF). Overall I'm very happy with it.

 

[varoadking]

At least buying a Taurus, you are paying 1/3 the price, and the quality is decent

 

[SwampWolf]

What is different about SIGs now as opposed to the German SIGs of the 1970s and 1980s?

The Internet.

...and the fact that The Internet makes every forum member and You Tube poster an immediate "expert" on what he has to say.

In my experience and that of my fellow officers in le as well as other SIG owners/shooters whom I know and respect, Dogguy, your assessment is very true and right on the mark. Recently made, American-manufactured SIGs (I am most acquainted with the 220s having the infamous internal extractors that internet "experts" are so fond of mocking, as well as some older models-one of my favorites being an early 220 with a mag release on the heel of the grip and the 226 models, as issued and otherwise) are every bit as good and well-made as the Old World "masterpieces" some Teutonic cultists are prone to rave about.
I can only speak to the SIG pistols that I and others have been directly familiar with and my experience, such as it is (or isn't), suggests that new SIG-made pistols are being made as well now as they have ever been (a couple or so MIM parts aside). The "Internet Experts" you referenced, whose main purpose in life seems to be to prowl cyberspace with the singular intention of demeaning American-made SIGs and who haunt these threads with contemporary SIG malice aforethought, I'm sure will be along shortly to weigh in. They just can't not.

 

[rellascout]

A great example of the changes in Sigs mentality is the SP2022 which since being brought into the US in late 2010 is now showing problems it never had when it was produced exclusively in German. Now there are reports of the 9mms needing NATO spec ammo to be broken in and there are numerous reports of feeding problems with the .357 Sig & 40 S&W. All of these issues appeared after changes to the pistol and when production moved to Exter.

If it is just the internet care to address this statement directly? The SP2022 was introduced in the internet age but the reports of issues are only surfacing now.

 

[PabloJ]

The SIG 210 from Germany seems to be pretty impressive gun. It is made where craftsmen make good living consequently it costs more then something similar made in USA.
PS. If it was may in say South Carolina USA it could be sold for about $1200.

 

[SwampWolf]

PS. If it was may in say South Carolina USA it could be sold for about $1200.

This is true, PabloJ, and only if it was so. I examined a SIG 210 at the NRA Convention yesterday and two things made my knees go weak: the quality and wonderful workmanship of the pistol-and its Germanic price.

 

[MCMXI]

This is not true. Take a P226 for example. It is not the same gun it was in even in the 1990s. The construction has changed. They have cheapened the materials used to build the pistol. In the 1980s and 1990s ZERO MIM. Now you cannot name a Sig pistol without MIM parts.

However, there is no debate that the pistols have been cheapened as far as materials and production methods are concerned.

I have to disagree with this. The bulk of the "classic" P series pistols haven't been cheapened at all.

Slides: Stainless steel used for the newer slides is more expensive than carbon steel and it has better corrosion resistance.

Frames: The frames are still being machined from a quality aluminum alloy and are as well made or better than they've ever been. Given that aluminum is considerably more expensive these days, it's remarkable that SIG has managed to keep the prices as low as they have.

Finish: The Nitron finish is more durable than the original blued finish.

Barrels: The barrels are still being made from high quality steel. Accuracy has been excellent based on my experience with four new SIGs.

Triggers: DA/SA triggers are significantly better than the original triggers. Also, short triggers, SRT, DAK and SAO are available.

Sights: Many pistols ship with factory three-dot night sights.

Fit and finish: Excellent based on two P220s and a P239 bought last year and a friends P220 Combat.

MIM: There are only a few MIM parts in SIGs (three or four) and so far I haven't heard about or witnessed issues with those parts.

Reliability: I've owned and shot SIGs for about 20 years and the new SIGs (P220 and P239) are just as reliable as my older all German SIGs.


I'll admit that I'm not a fan of MIM parts, but that's due to my own prejudice and if I could change them for quality steel parts I would. This is what I did on my Kimber TEII because I could.

I don't know a damn thing about all of these "newer" models that SIG produces such as the P238, P250, P290, SP2022 and Mosquito and frankly, I have no interest in any of them. What I do know about are the P220, P225, P226, P229, P232 and P239 models. Current P220s and the P239 are excellent pistols and well worth the price of admission. I can't comment on the newer P226, P229 or P232 models because I haven't bought or shot any. Based on my experience, I wouldn't hesitate in recommending either a P220 or P239 to anyone looking for a well made and reliable pistol.

 

[rellascout]

I don't know a damn thing about all of these "newer" models that SIG produces such as the P238, P250, P290, SP2022 and Mosquito and frankly, I have no interest in any of them. What I do know about are the P220, P225, P226, P229, P232 and P239 models. Current P220s and the P239 are excellent pistols and well worth the price of admission. I can't comment on the newer P226, P229 or P232 models because I haven't bought or shot any. Based on my experience, I wouldn't hesitate in recommending either a P220 or P239 to anyone looking for a well made and reliable pistol.

What was the name of that Meatloaf song.... 2 out of 3 Ain't Bad. In Sigs case 2 out of 5 ain't bad... LOL

Again it is not the Sig is a horrible pistol. They are not. What they are is expensive for a product that is not as good as it used to be IMHO. They are still very good pistols. You make some nice points and except for the MIM, Trigger and reliability across the board I agree.

You cannot discount the newer pistols because they make up a high percentage of their total sales. I would estimate the "new guns" when you include contract sales make up more than 40% of their sales. P250, SP2022, P238 etc...

I agree 100% that the Classic P series including the new guns like the P239 and P229 which have been US origin guns for a long time are you best bets. Most will run out of the box with a high level of combat accuracy.

I just do not think they are of the same quality as they used to be. YMMV

 

[gudel]

When posting quality issues thread you should have pictures, anything less it's a fact less bashing.